As you now Michael is married to a Hannah in 1901 Census.
LEE, ELLEN, Mothers mn HAVARD
GRO Reference: 1899 S Quarter in MERTHYR TYDFIL Volume 11A Page 684
There appears to be only 1 marriage in Wales 1891-1899 reg Dec 1891 Swansea, Michael Lee/Hannah Harry on same page.
There is this Birth Reg;
Hannah Havard
Oct 1861 - Pontypool, Monmouthshire
This matches Hannah Lees dob/pob 1901 Census.
1871 she appears to be under HOWARD, Parents William/Elizabeth.
Mother remarries ;
1881 Census
Edward Griffiths 54
Elizabeth Griffiths 49
Enoch Havard 14
David W. Havard 8
James Probyn 62
Cant find Hannah 1881/1891 Census either as Havard/Howard or Harry.
No Marriage either.
Maybe name mistranscribed on 1891 Marriage?
As you now Michael is married to a Hannah in 1901 Census.
LEE, ELLEN, Mothers mn HAVARD
GRO Reference: 1899 S Quarter in MERTHYR TYDFIL Volume 11A Page 684
There appears to be only 1 marriage in Wales 1891-1899 reg Dec 1891 Swansea, Michael Lee/Hannah Harry on same page.
There is this Birth Reg;
Hannah Havard
Oct 1861 - Pontypool, Monmouthshire
This matches Hannah Lees dob/pob 1901 Census.
1871 she appears to be under HOWARD, Parents William/Elizabeth.
Mother remarries ;
1881 Census
Edward Griffiths 54
Elizabeth Griffiths 49
Enoch Havard 14
David W. Havard 8
James Probyn 62
Cant find Hannah 1881/1891 Census either as Havard/Howard or Harry.
No Marriage either.
Maybe name mistranscribed on 1891 Marriage?
Trish
Do you think that The Michael Lee here is Mary Anne's father?
1891(2 share house 8 Globe Pit Row)
Hd Michael Lee 40, Wid, Millright in Forge, b. Tredegar
Son William, 19, unmarried, coal miner, b.Tredegar
Son John Lee, 13, b. Blaina
Dau Margaret Lee, 10, b. Blaina
and
Hd Spencer Jones, 24, Tinworker, b. Pontypool
Wife Mary Ann Jones, 24, b. Blaina
Dau Margaret Ann Jones, 1, b. Blaina
think you may need to remove the 1911 - the copyright rules are different. You can link to the free one as I did in my previous post.
have you looked at the actual census, rather than just the transcription? There is extra info on, like length of marriage and how many children born and still alive. It could help you find their marriage. I don't think it's the one in Swansea as that's a distance away from where they were living and there is a Michael Lee born in Swansea around 1864 who could be that groom. Although, there's always the possibility that they didn't marry, maybe Hannah was already married to someone else.
:-\
have you looked at the actual census, rather than just the transcription? There is extra info on, like length of marriage and how many children born and still alive. It could help you find their marriage. I don't think it's the one in Swansea as that's a distance away from where they were living and there is a Michael Lee born in Swansea around 1864 who could be that groom. Although, there's always the possibility that they didn't marry, maybe Hannah was already married to someone else.
:-\
there is that marriage in Swansea, but it is rather more than 16 years earlier than 1911. Also, as I noted in a previous post, there is a possible Michael Lee born in Swansea who could account for that marriage.
There are possible Thomas birth registrations with maiden surname Harry
John James Thomas june qtr 1892 Swansea mmn Harry
Thomas Thomas dec qtr 1896 Swansea mmn Harry
Mary Hannah Thomas june qtr 1895 Swansea mmn Harry
Margaret Thomas june qtr 1899 Swansea mmn Harry
All these children are with widowed mother Hannah Thomas in Swansea on the 1901 census RG13/5073 folio 95 pg 27, so the couples from that pair of marriages look to be James Thomas/ Hannah Harry and Michael Lee/Annie Sweeney.
I have gone over the various threads - I find them a bit confusing and I am not sure whether you have your Mary Ann in 1871 as a baby.
However, I will post this:
1871 5321/14/21
39 George Street, Tredegar
Margaret Leahy 20 yrs b Llanelly
Mary Ann Leahy 6 months b Tredegar
They are in the household of Rees and Mary Rees and children.
Rees Rees and Mary Gibbon are spouses on the same marriage page 1865
Heywood
I think I might have seen this on one of your other threads
1861 3998/40/15
Timothy and Mary Leahy with children including Michael aged 13 or 15 yrs.
Here is Timothy and Mary Leahy in 1871 5319/40/21
Transcribed as Lehary (Ancestry) or Lehay
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V55C-TC9
To add to your confusion
If you think that Timothy Leahy might be your man, he looks to be at 1881 5243/5/4 as Leialy.
There is a death 1883 for Timothy Leahy, 55 yrs - age is out a bit but ...
There is a possible birth for Mary Leahy who is the youngest child in 1861 census.
1856 Mary Leary , Abergavenny (pre Bedwelty) mmn Forrest.
This would tie in with births in Cork for some of the older children in 1861 census
Catherine 5th June 1840
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633189#page/12/mode/1up
John 23rd March 1844
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633189#page/20/mode/1up
Ellen 1st September 1849
These are in indexed on FindMyPast or Ancestry and are also unindexed at https://registers.nli.ie
I can’t find Ellen on nli site but she is indexed. :-\
There is also a Hannah 4th May 1852 and I can’t find her either on the site.
I can’t find Michael in indexes though which is more important.
The registers which are imaged on subscription sites sometimes are not quite the same as on the free site for some reason so I suppose he may be there somewhere.
So .... I now have a snow day, so I'm going to start with the latest census and work back with the Lees Leahy Lea etc.
So far I'm optimistic ::)
The other thread is on the Irish board tracing Timothy in Cork but for Timothy married to Margaret.
I think it quite likely that the other Timothy married to Mary is more likely and he also seemed to be from Cork.
Have you read the posts #30 and #31?
:) and there am I thinking I have set it out logically!
This is what I think - warning -just my thoughts though
Reply #30
1861
Timothy and Mary Leahy with child Michael
1871
Possibly your Mary Anne with her mother Margaret (Gibbon) but no Michael
1871
Timothy and Mary Leahy
Reply 31
Links this Leahy family through Mary - maiden name Forrest and some parish records in Cork.
There is also a possible death for Timothy Leahy in 1883.
I posted the links on those posts so have not repeated them.
I was just going to ask where do you have Mary Lee b 1851 who married Coleman.
Have you got a census reference?
The Leahy dates don’t fit well with what?
However, you have now posted re your flaw ;)
I did mean for yourself to help you follow & see the contradictions.
Why have you discounted the Michael Lee in Merthyr Tydfil in 1901 & 1911? He is not the Michael born Swansea - he is still alive and older than the Michael in Swansea who didn't marry a Hannah anyway! He married Annie Sweeney.
The Timothy & Margaret couple are not yours. You seem to have the 1871 census & 1881 census entries for them both noted as 1871.
Have you looked yet at the Michael Leahy with father Timothy that Heywood posted in posts 30 & 31?
These:
1871 Census
70 Gloster St, Aberdare, Merthyr
Timothy Lee, Hd, 49 (b. 1832), Cork Co Cork, Haulier
Margaret, wife, 62 (b. 1819), Cork Co Cork
John Coleman, Grandson, 7, Merthyr
1871 Census
Pond Street Merthyr
Timothy Lee, 44 (b. 1827), Ireland
Margaret Lee, 43 (b. 1828), Ireland
Can I ask why you think the Pond St Merthyr Tim and Marg aren't mine?
Thanks
David
These:
1871 Census
70 Gloster St, Aberdare, Merthyr
Timothy Lee, Hd, 49 (b. 1832), Cork Co Cork, Haulier
Margaret, wife, 62 (b. 1819), Cork Co Cork
John Coleman, Grandson, 7, Merthyr
1871 Census
Pond Street Merthyr
Timothy Lee, 44 (b. 1827), Ireland
Margaret Lee, 43 (b. 1828), Ireland
Can I ask why you think the Pond St Merthyr Tim and Marg aren't mine?
Thanks
David
Is that 1881 for Gloster Street, Aberdare. Are these the same couple?
I am tempted to ask why you think that the Pond Street Merthyr are yours?
Whilst looking for Michael, I have come across this:
May 1896 Gaol record
Michael Lee, 45 yrs born 1851 committed at Merthyr for being Drunk and Disorderly. He is a labourer and born County Mayo.
This illustrates the difficulty in trying to find the right man.
I was posting on the Cork board and skimmed over this thread but really not sure what has been posted and discounted.
I am trying to rub everything out and start again as I am now wondering ::)
I am not familiar with places and distances so have to keep checking.
1881 Margaret Lay is born Cork and Mary Ann is born Blaina
1871 Margaret Leahy is born Llanelly and Mary Ann is born Tredegar
** in this census she is boarding with Mary Rees (Gibbon) b Llanelly.
There is a Gibbon family living in Llanelly, Breconshire with Mary and Margaret plus siblings with parents William and Keziah. Are the two Margarets and Mary Anns above, the same persons.
Interestingly, the Gibbons have a daughter Rachel and so do these two sisters.
I am trying to rub everything out and start again as I am now wondering ::)
I am not familiar with places and distances so have to keep checking.
1881 Margaret Lay is born Cork and Mary Ann is born Blaina
1871 Margaret Leahy is born Llanelly and Mary Ann is born Tredegar
** in this census she is boarding with Mary Rees (Gibbon) b Llanelly.
There is a Gibbon family living in Llanelly, Breconshire with Mary and Margaret plus siblings with parents William and Keziah. Are the two Margarets and Mary Anns above, the same persons.
Interestingly, the Gibbons have a daughter Rachel and so do these two sisters.
I'm struggling to find that 1871 census referred to above :P
I am sticking to my train of thought here and trying not to put any sideways people.
Most if not all information is in #replies 30 and 31 and on your Irish thread.
Also other rootschatters have posted lots of information elsewhere which may be repeated here.
As I wrote, I haven’t followed Michael after 1891 - I think you have him.
Ages may vary but that is not unusual.
1893.
Mary Lee death Bedwelty
1891 4356/6/10
George Street Tredegar
Mary Leigh 60 yrs b Cork
1891 4353/10/14
Pit Row, Blaina
Michael Lee and family.
Looking at children’s births, the family moved from Tredegar to Blaina
1883 Timothy Leahy death Bedwelty
1881 5240/118/53
Pit Row, Blaina
Michael Lay and family
1881 5243/5/4
Timothy and Mary Leialy
Carpenters Yard Tredegar * in same area as Pond Row and George Street
1871 5321/14/21
George Street Tredegar
Margaret Leahy
Mary Ann Leahy
(with Rees family)
*cannot see Michael Lee in 1871
1871 5319/40/21
Duke Street Tredegar
Timothy Lehary
Mary Lehary
With daughter Ellen Fling
1861 3998/40/15
Duke Street Tredegar
Timothy Leahy
Mary Leahy plus children
See reply #31 for possible links to Cork for some of the children named in 1861 which are based on 1856 birth of Mary Leary in Abergavenny district with mother’s name of Forrest.
That, I think, is a summary of my reasoning but without certificates it is not reluable plus the added complications of name changes and ages.
Lay could be a pronunciation of Leahy as could Lee and Leigh.
Looks good re the deaths but I am unsure too re Thomas Holmes.
Presumably Thomas is somehow a grandson but it throws into question the Leahys. :o
Thomas Holmes is grandson in law for Timothy’s death which could mean he is married to Timothy's granddaughter or is a ‘step’ grandson.
At the moment I can only find one child’s birth from those censuses and mmn is Coleman :-\
I can follow the implied generational connection but not yet figure it out. That is what I meant.
possible for Thomas
1901 6 Back Iron Row, Tredegar RG13/4937 folio 33 pg 16
Thomas Holmes head mar 40 coke ovens labourer
Catherine wife 39
Mary dau 15
Elizabeth dau 13
Maggie dau 5
Thomas son 8
John son 3
all born Tredegar
1881 4 Iron Row RG11/5242 folio 26 pg 4
Catherine Holmes widow 40 b. Ireland, Cork
Thomas son 18 iron baller
Anne (?) dau 14
Mary dau 12
William son 9
children all born Tredegar
Quick note I have, I think , found Catherine Holmes - not Catherine Leahy, I don’t think.
Will post later.
Something to check and consider
December 1861 marriage Bedwellty John Shea and Catherine Leahy
1871
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V55C-59Z
Children Timothy and Francis and Mary mmn Lee but can’t see Catherine’s birth b abt 1862 :-\
There is a death for John Shea aged 40 yrs in June quarter 1881
another marriage registered at Crickhowell
William Kelly june qtr 1884 vol 11b pg 167 with Jane Holmes on the same page
1881 census more than likely says Jane, in my defence, the writing isn't clear.
::)
Just to say that I have found the Catherine Shea birth
June 1863 Bedwelty
Catherine Shee. On GRO she is Catherino Shee mmn Lee
So I would say that Catherine Leahy, daughter of Timothy and Mary, married John Shea and children have mmn Lee. This at least ties with Michael Leahy/Lee name.
Still a bit lost with the Holmes situation but have a sequence in my head which would be Catherine Shea being the partner of Thomas Holmes but not the evidence through children’s births :(
The problem is that Catherine Holmes senior (1881) could fit with Catherine Leahy Shea re age and place of birth but all this has nothing to support it.
I am sorry that this is difficult to follow. I digressed with the Shea- John and Michael and have tried to modify those posts.
Just to say that I have found the Catherine Shea birth
June 1863 Bedwelty
Catherine Shee. On GRO she is Catherino Shee mmn Lee
Following through your logic, I've also looked in the GRO index and its has:
Catherine Shee. On GRO she is Catherine Shee mmn Leary
Just to add to the frequent name changes ;D
Just to say that I have found the Catherine Shea birth
June 1863 Bedwelty
Catherine Shee. On GRO she is Catherino Shee mmn Lee
Following through your logic, I've also looked in the GRO index and its has:
Catherine Shee. On GRO she is Catherine Shee mmn Leary
Just to add to the frequent name changes ;D
Hello,
You must be looking at the wrong one ??? This is the one I see and refer to.
Note that the first name, as mentioned above, is transcribed as Catherino
Bedwellty 1863 June quarter volume 11a Page 104
Catherino Shee mmn Lee
Heywood :)