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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: Willow 4873 on Thursday 15 February 18 17:12 GMT (UK)
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I am trying to trace the parents of John James Charlton born 27.7.1893 South Shields in fact I am trying to trace John James himself
He married Louisa King 12.10.1914 at St Hilda's South Shields and his father is listed as Ralph a labourer
On his birth certificate his parents are listed as James a dock labourer and Frances nee Carr of 13 Mill Street Westoe
There is a baptism of a John James Charlton who may be him on 16.8.1893 at South Shields mother Frances but the father is listed as Alexander!
The only Charlton/Carr marriage is in 1884 and they are Thomas and Elizabeth but they don't have a John with them on the 1901/1911 census
He died in 1953 and is living with his second wife in 1939
Help I don't know where else to look!
Willow x
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There are SEVERAL JJ Charlton who could fit the brief in birth indexes, so I'm confused as to how you plumped for the South Shields one, given you don't have a census to pin down a birthplace. ?
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Is this him in 1911 :-\
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWCH-1XX
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Could these be relevant :-\
CHARLTON, EDITH ISABELLA mmn CARR
1885 March Quarter in SOUTH SHIELDS Volume 10A Page 716
CHARLTON, ELIZABETH mmn CARR
1886 Dec Quarter in SOUTH SHIELDS Volume 10A Page 690
CHARLTON, WILLIAM mmn CARR
1888 Dec Quarter in SOUTH SHIELDS Volume 10A Page 699
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Post deleted, information already posted.
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Frances Charlton's birthplace is Stamfordham on the 1911 census.
In 1901 she appears to be Frances Fairhurst, with husband Ralph and son John James Fairhurst. Rg 13 / 4733/ 136 / 24
Marriage Frances Charlton and Ralph Fairhurst, 1st q. 1894, Tynemouth 10b, 343
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In 1891 census :
Howdon, Wallsend
Alexander Charlton, 35, Cartman, b. Belford,
Frances ", wife, 29, b. Stamfordham.
Cornelius ", 7, son, b. Wallsend.
Isabella ", 4, dau, b. Wallsend.
Mary Ann " 1, dau, b. Wallsend.
RG12/4222/115/44
In 1901 census :
5 Worcester St., Gateshead,
Alexander Charlton, 54, Brewery Cartman, b. Bamburgh,
Mary ", wife, 57, b. Midlothian, Scotland,
Cornelius ", son, 16, Engine Cleaner, b. Wallsend,
Isabella ", dau, 14, b. Wallsend,
Alexander Raeburn, boarder, 25, Brewery Cellar Man, b. Tweedmouth,
William Raeburn, boarder, 22, Engine Cleaner, b. Berwick,
Robert Raeburn, boarder, 17, Spirit Cellarman, b. Berwick
RG13/4759/112/23
On the three children from 1891 census births, mothers maiden name is Charlton. Can't see a marriage for Alexander Charlton and Frances Charlton, so it looks like they were both free to legally marry after splitting up.
Alexander Charlton married Mary Raeburn (formerly Campbell) 4/11/1893, South Shields.
Alan.
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Could these be relevant :-\
CHARLTON, EDITH ISABELLA mmn CARR
1885 March Quarter in SOUTH SHIELDS Volume 10A Page 716
CHARLTON, ELIZABETH mmn CARR
1886 Dec Quarter in SOUTH SHIELDS Volume 10A Page 690
CHARLTON, WILLIAM mmn CARR
1888 Dec Quarter in SOUTH SHIELDS Volume 10A Page 699
I think these are the children of Thomas and Elizabeth Charlton, in South Shields in 1891 at RG 12/4157/25/43
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Could these be relevant :-\
CHARLTON, EDITH ISABELLA mmn CARR
1885 March Quarter in SOUTH SHIELDS Volume 10A Page 716
CHARLTON, ELIZABETH mmn CARR
1886 Dec Quarter in SOUTH SHIELDS Volume 10A Page 690
CHARLTON, WILLIAM mmn CARR
1888 Dec Quarter in SOUTH SHIELDS Volume 10A Page 699
Hi these are the children of Thomas and Elizabeth I did check them out and they are with their parents
Willow x
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On his birth certificate his parents are listed as James a dock labourer and Frances nee Carr of 13 Mill Street Westoe
Echoing Pauline's question, how do you know that this is the same John James as married Louisa King?
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I have traced him through his son's birth and marriage certificates and his war record when he enlisted on 28.12.1914 he was 21 years and 5 months old living at 9 Hepples Court which is the address that is also listed on his marriage certificate
There are only 2 John James born in 1893 one in South Shields one in Middlesbrough the one in Middlesbrough died there in 1935 parents William and Mary
Willow x
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I see that the birthdate of 27.07.1893 is consistent from the baptism (son of Alexander & Frances) to 1939 (free index).
Is this also the birthdate on the birth certificate of the son of James & Frances nee Carr?
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Yes he was born 27.7.1893 now you see the dilemma
Willow x
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Your not going to believe this but I might have just found him on the 1911 down as Jin Jas Charlton
Willow x
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Is that the one at the link posted by Rosie yesterday.
An article in the Shields Gazzette April 13 1891
Wife Assault - Alexander Charlton, drayman, Howdon, was charged with assaulting his wife, Frances Charlton on the 6th inst. Complainant stated that on Monday evening last, they had a few words about money matters, and the defendant struck at her and ill used her. Defendant had turned her out of the house and she had not returned since. They lived very unhappily together. Defendant said his wife was the cause of all of their unhappiness. She had pawned everything in the house and he had nothing but the clothes he stood in. The bench imposed a fine of 1s and 4s costs.
I doubt Alexander is John James father. In the census that can't be mentioned he states (crossed out, because that section was for women to fill in) that he had 3 children, 2 living.
Alan.
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Misses that it could well be them on the 1911 Frances has 4 children 3 still living
Willow x
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Numerous articles in the Shields Gazzette from 1887 to 1892 about Alexander and Frances Charlton and their unhappy marriage. Last one is dated 29 March 1892, titled Cruelty to Children in South Shields and results in Frances Charlton being jailed for 2 months.
Alan.
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Misses that it could well be them on the 1911 Frances has 4 children 3 still living
Willow x
That was why I went looking for more children, albeit the wrong ones ;D
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This is them in the 1891 census in Wallsend, Northumberland
Alexander Charlton 35 Belford, Northumberland cartman
Frances Charlton 29 wife Stamfordham, Northumberland
Cornelius Charlton 7 son Wallsend, Northumberland
Isabella Charlton 4 dau Wallsend, Northumberland
Mary Ann Charlton 1 dau Wallsend, Northumberland
Frances age/place of birth consistent with the 1911 census Alexander and the Children are in Gateshead on the 1901
And he has re-married!
Willow x
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This is them in the 1891 census in Wallsend, Northumberland
Alexander Charlton 35 Belford, Northumberland cartman
Frances Charlton 29 wife Stamfordham, Northumberland
Cornelius Charlton 7 son Wallsend, Northumberland
Isabella Charlton 4 dau Wallsend, Northumberland
Mary Ann Charlton 1 dau Wallsend, Northumberland
Frances age/place of birth consistent with the 1911 census Alexander and the Children are in Gateshead on the 1901
And he has re-married!
Willow x
Already posted by Alan in reply #6 :)
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Duh! having a thick day
Willow x
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Frances Charlton's birthplace is Stamfordham on the 1911 census.
In 1901 she appears to be Frances Fairhurst, with husband Ralph and son John James Fairhurst. Rg 13 / 4733/ 136 / 24
Marriage Frances Charlton and Ralph Fairhurst, 1st q. 1894, Tynemouth 10b, 343
Here is the full 1901 entry
RG 13 / 4733/ 136 / 24
58 Wilson Street, South Shields
Ralph Fairhurst, head, m, 61, Dock labourer, Morpeth Northumberland
Frances do, wife, m, 49, Stamfordham do
John James do, [no relationship given] 7, school, South Shields, Durham
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That makes more sense now I suspect that John wasn't Alexanders child and it looks like Frances and he never married in the first place
Willow x
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Interesting to note that on the birth cert. John James' father is said to be a dock labourer, which is the same occupation as Ralph in 1901.
I suspect there was quite a bit of massaging of the truth on both the baptism entry and the birth certificate :-\
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Saying that she is back down as Charlton on the 1911
Willow x
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Saying that she is back down as Charlton on the 1911
I've seen quite a few examples of people reverting to a former name after separation/bereavement.
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I wonder if the fathers surname was Carr? I am having absolutely no luck finding Frances in Stamfordham
Willow x
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No I couldn’t easily find a suitable Frances pre-1891.
James’ natural father may indeed have been a James Carr.
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The only Frances born the same time in Stamfordham has the surname Thomason and she married a William Armstrong and she is tracked through the census's
Willow x
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Good possibility for Frances in 1881
RG 11 / 5098 / 67 / 5
In the household of James Liddell
Richmond Hill, Cheeseburn Grange, Stamfordham
Fanny Charlton, servant, unm, 18, Dairymaid, Nbl Hawkwell
Hawkwell is right next-door to Stamfordham http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=407730&Y=571765&A=Y&Z=115
Richmond Hill is a short distance to the south.
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a possible in 1871 in Hawkwell
Cornelius Charlton 75 widow b Ovingham farm labourer
Matthew Charlton 40 son unm b Stanfordham farm labourer
Anne Charlton 11 granddaughter b Stanfordham
Willow x
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a possible in 1871 in Hawkwell
Cornelius Charlton 75 widow b Ovingham farm labourer
Matthew Charlton 40 son unm b Stanfordham farm labourer
Anne Charlton 11 granddaughter b Stanfordham
Willow x
One word of warning: Charlton is an extremely common surname in these parts ;D
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I know! :'( I just wondered as the Grandfather is called Cornelius the same as one of her children and they also had a daughter called Frances b c 1834
There is also a Frances Charlton registered under the Castle Ward district 1863 no MMN
Willow x
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There is also a Frances Charlton registered under the Castle Ward district 1863 no MMN
I think that is most likely 'your' Frances
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Yes I think so its just a case of chasing that down further
Willow x
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I know! :'( I just wondered as the Grandfather is called Cornelius the same as one of her children and they also had a daughter called Frances b c 1834
Interestingly Frances appears to be in service at Richmond Hill in 1861, which is where I think 'your' Frances is in 1881 :-\ I can't yet find either of them in 1871 :-\
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There is a Frances Charlton who married a Joseph Charlton 1861 on the 1871 she is shown as being born 1829 Stamfordhampton but no sign of the younger Francis
Ignore that her father is Forster
Willow x
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I think this could be them in 1871, Frances daughter of Cornelius Charlton, was baptized Bywell 27 Oct 1833 :
27 Potter St., Willington.
Robert Watson, 45, Joiner, b. Newburn.
Frances ", wife, 37, b. Bywell,
George ", son, 15, b. Newburn,
Thomas ", son, 12, b. Newburn,
Frances ", dau, 7, b. Stamfordham.
RG10/5110/62/12
In 1881 Frances (Snr) is still with Robert Watson and says she is born Stamfordham, in 1891 says born Hawkwell. Robert Watson is a widower in Newburn in 1861 with the elder children. No sign of a marriage for Robert Watson and Frances Charlton though.
Alan.
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Funny you should mention that one I spotted it too but as I couldn't see a marriage either I wasn't sure
it doesn't help I cant track down baptisms for Ann and Frances to confirm their mothers name
Willow x
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I think this could be them in 1871, Frances daughter of Cornelius Charlton, was baptized Bywell 27 Oct 1833 :
27 Potter St., Willington.
Robert Watson, 45, Joiner, b. Newburn.
Frances ", wife, 37, b. Bywell,
George ", son, 15, b. Newburn,
Thomas ", son, 12, b. Newburn,
Frances ", dau, 7, b. Stamfordham.
RG10/5110/62/12
In 1881 Frances (Snr) is still with Robert Watson and says she is born Stamfordham, in 1891 says born Hawkwell. Robert Watson is a widower in Newburn in 1861 with the elder children. No sign of a marriage for Robert Watson and Frances Charlton though.
Ooh yes, that looks good :)
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it doesn't help I cant track down baptisms for Ann and Frances to confirm their mothers name
Unfortunately the Bishops Transcripts only go up to 1836 for Stamfordham, and freeReg only up to 1839 (assuming that is where they might have been baptised) :-\
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Hiya all
Can anyone get a lead on this guy for me as I am out of ideas and banging my head up the wall. I have him on the 1939 census and I have his birth certificate
27.7.1893 John James Charlton at 13 Mill Street Westoe South Shields father James Charlton dock labourer mother Frances nee Carr registered the 31.8.1893
I have found Frances and John James on the 1911 census (Frances down as Franas and male and John down as Jin Jas) Frances is 50 born Stamfordham, Northumberland and is listed as a widow.
I can't pin them down in earlier census though! or find a marriage between a Charlton and Carr but there is a baptism for a John James Charlton 16.8.1893 at St Hilda's South Shields parents Alexander and Frances. I can find an Alexander and Frances in the 1901 but no sign of John James. Alexander is still alive in 1911 and may have been married to an Isabella in earlier census. Frances listed that she had 4 children of who one has died on the 1911
Oh and to confuse the mix more John married Louisa King 12.10.1914 St Hilda's South Shields and lists his father as Ralph. He later married Hannah Wallace (a widow) in 1938 but I don't have the marriage details for that one
Help! I'm stuck and running out of ideas on this one
Willow x
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Previous post-
Threads merged.
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5 pages of replies on previous post so have asked moderator to merge to prevent duplication of info
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Blame it on my age! apologies everyone
Willow x
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Further update on this matter (after I completely forgot about this post and posted the question again :-[ )
off Familysearch baptism 28.2.1864 Frances Charlton baptised Stamfordham mother Frances no father listed
Willow x