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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Derbyshire => Topic started by: NormanE on Saturday 17 February 18 16:46 GMT (UK)
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Caroline DAVIS c 1874 Married Frederick UDALE c 1874 at St Mary's Wirksworth Derbyshire on the 24 Dec 1893. The marriage document says she is a Spinster and it also says her father was Joseph EMERY a Boot maker.
I have been unable to find any evidence of Caroline prior to or after her marriage.
Would be very grateful for any help and advice.
I am aware what happened to Frederick Udale after the marriage. It is Caroline I am seeking.
In short, quoting an old stage saying " Where did she come from where did she Go"
NormanE
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Hi,
This could be worth looking at :)
1881 -
Joseph Emery 37 Cordwainer
Emma Emery 37
Joseph Emery 16
Thomas Emery 13
Caroline Emery 9
Emily Emery 6
Joseph Emery 84
RG11 Piece 2890 Folio 80 Page 11, Stourbridge, Staffs
A Caroline Emery marriage -
q3 1888, Walsall
Vol 6b Page 885
On the same page is John Davis.
Perhaps Caroline was actually a 'widow' when she married Frederick.
JJ
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Hi unfortunately this Caroline married the Edward Joseph Hardwick 24th September 1888 St John Walsall aged 19, her father was a Jonas Emery
Address 35, Oxford Street
Keyboard86
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Hi unfortunately this Caroline married the Edward Joseph Hardwick 24th September 1888 St John Walsall aged 19, her father was a Jonas Emery
Address 35, Oxford Street
Keyboard86
Thanks for the clarification. Back to the drawing board ???
JJ
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Hi only checked a couple of years on the GRO Index but if Caroline was the mother of Carrie Udale 1895 Stourbridge and Sarah Annie Udale 1898 Kings Norton her maiden name was Emery
Keyboard86
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This is confusing.
Free BMD shows Annie Newmans Davies /Annie Yeomans Davis and Caroline Davis as possible spouses.
Family Search has the marriage
24th December 1893 with bride Annie Yeomans Davies 19 yrs with father Thomas Yeomans Davies.
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Hi only checked a couple of years on the GRO Index but if Caroline was the mother of Carrie Udale 1895 Stourbridge and Sarah Annie Udale 1898 Kings Norton her maiden name was Emery
Keyboard86
Baptism -
Sarah Annie Udall
Baptism Date - 22 Jan 1899
Baptism Place - Kings Norton, St Nicolas, Worcestershire
Father - Frederick Udall, Engine Driver
Mother - Caroline Udall
Abode - Village, Kings Norton
Sarah Annie died q4 1899, Kings Norton
JJ
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This is confusing.
Free BMD shows Annie Newmans Davies /Annie Yeomans Davis and Caroline Davis as possible spouses.
Family Search has the marriage
24th December 1893 with bride Annie Yeomans Davies 19 yrs with father Thomas Yeomans Davies.
Just seen the marriage entry on Anc. and it has been corrected in 1897 by the vicar ???
Original shows Annie Yeomans Davis as bride but signed Annie Newmans Davis. I wonder if this was all made up.
The correction states for ‘Annie Yeomans Davis read Caroline’.
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NormanE,
Is yours a civil copy of the certificate? If so, does it show the corrections?
I am wondering if the vicar meant for the first names to be corrected as written, but omitted that the surname should be corrected. The instruction states that the father be corrected to Joseph Emery, Bootmaker.
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Hi only checked a couple of years on the GRO Index but if Caroline was the mother of Carrie Udale 1895 Stourbridge and Sarah Annie Udale 1898 Kings Norton her maiden name was Emery
Keyboard86
Baptism -
Sarah Annie Udall
Baptism Date - 22 Jan 1899
Baptism Place - Kings Norton, St Nicolas, Worcestershire
Father - Frederick Udall, Engine Driver
Mother - Caroline Udall
Abode - Village, Kings Norton
Sarah Annie died q4 1899, Kings Norton
JJ
I suspect Carrie died as well - there's a death of a female Udall registered in Kings Norton the same quarter as she is born
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Hi all, cannot locate anything on Caroline/Carrie after birth, also ( but possibly a red herring) a Gordon Victor Udale 1897 Kings Norton ( Cannot locate on GRO Index)!?
Keyboard86
Possibly reply above answers Carrie
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Gordon Victor's mmn is Matthews
Appears to be on 1901 with parents Benjamin T and Annie M and older sister Ivy, aged 7
Added - spelled Udall on GRO
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:) Oh well, should have clicked phonetic!
Where was Frederick/Caroline in 1901?
Keyboard86
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I suspect Fred is reinventing himself.
1901 - Fredk Udolloriss, single, tram driver, b Montreal, Canada. Lodging in Cheltenham. Interestingly his pob in 1911 is Wirksworth!
He marries in 1902, father Alfred, labourer (crossed out and replaced with gentleman)
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Information re the two different name given here
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Udale-24
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Thank you all for interest and help. Progress indeed with the news of the Udale births. I am awaiting the arrival of the marriage certificate,perhaps know with baited breath.
Again thanks for the information so far
NormanE
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Information re the two different name given here
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Udale-24
Wow, what a story, so just what happened to Caroline if he remarried 1902?
Keyboard86
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Information re the two different name given here
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Udale-24
A very interesting article. Unfortunately it doesn't answer the question as to where Caroline went to, perhaps we shall never know.
JJ
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We haven’t found Caroline in 1891 either, have we?
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I suspect Caroline was still alive in 1901 - if Fred had been widowed between Sarah Annie's birth in late 1898 and the 1901 census surely that would be an easy description to use then, and on his marriage in 1902. Single twice makes me a bit suspicious.
My other puzzle is what happened in 1897 for Caroline, clearly living in Worcestershire, to make the effort of getting back in contact with the priest in Derbyshire to correct her marriage details. She or Fred must have needed it for some reason
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Mabel, thanks for pointing that out with the date. It never occurred to me.
They may have been living apart already.
I wonder why she had such a different name on marriage too.
All such a mystery.
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From NormanE
Again a huge thank you for the 20 replies I have received.
Two major steps have come to me, the amended marriage certificate for Fredericks marriage to Caroline/Annie at Wirksworth in 1893 and the two children born in this marriage.
Unfortunately I still don't know where Caroline/Annie came from or went to.
I have used the Caroline/Annie combination because it seems to me the first time Caroline is documented is at the marriage certificate amendment in 1897. Why did she call herself Annie on the marriage certificate and did not amend it in 1897?. Can it be assumed that the error in the certificate showed the name of the Davis father (Thomas Yeomans Davis)?
As mentioned why seek an amendment when the marriage seems settled between the birth of Carrie and Sarah Annie?
Again any help and thoughts are most welcome
NormanE
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It is such a mystery.
I have searched in so many ways but can’t find Caroline from 1891 onwards.
I wondered if she might be in an asylum and just shown with initials in census but I can’t see an entry which would fit.
Although she (or someone) is shown as Annie Yeomans Davis on the marriage certificate and her father as Thomas Yeomans Davis, the signature shows Annie Newmans Davis.
Then, of course, it is all changed in the presence of Frederick and Caroline.
Perhaps the birth certificate for Sarah Annie in 1898 might have an address which could be checked :-\
Apologies that the attachment is a bit big. ::)
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From NormanE
I have looked again at the amendment to the Frederick Udales 1893 marriage certificate and now realise that Caroline's name was inserted in 1897. Is this the moment of her documentary Birth?
NormanE
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Hi only checked a couple of years on the GRO Index but if Caroline was the mother of Carrie Udale 1895 Stourbridge and Sarah Annie Udale 1898 Kings Norton her maiden name was Emery
Keyboard86
She was Emery in 1895 - the birth certificates may give you an address and whether Caroline had a former name.
The link I gave you re the change of name etc, has Caroline as daughter of Joseph and Emma as we have here.
However, there is some wrong information.
It is presumed that she married John Davis in 1888 (to account for the name, I suppose). However, that Caroline married Hardwick as previously mentioned here.
It then has Caroline Udall marrying in Sunderland in 1904 but that is a different Caroline and the report also has the wrong spouse!
Don’t believe everything unless it is backed up with documentation. ;)
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I suspect the marriage has broken down and Caroline is somewhere in 1901 with a new "husband" I am also leaning towards Caroline, daughter of Joseph and Emma. There's a potential death for Emma in the Kings Norton area in 1897
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I keep going back to this but nothing becomes clear. ???
I think any clues, that is, if there are any, may be in the marriage and two birth certificates for addresses.
The church record just shows ‘Wirksworth’.
There does not seem to be an Annie or Caroline in 1891 or 1901 which fits with Wirksworth or Lye as a birthplace.
I even wonder if Frederick married someone called Annie then took up with Caroline Emery and they persuaded the Vicar to alter the record.
Was the civil record also amended?
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Late to the thread, but I agree that the birth certificates may well be of interest- perhaps especially that of Carrie (1895), who was born in Stourbridge district where the Emery family was living in 1881/1891. Did Caroline do what many first-time mothers did, and go back to her own mother for the birth of her first child?
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I am delighted and intrigued by how much interest my problem has aroused. Hopefully no lost sleep.
I have ordered the Civil Certificate for the 1893 marriage which is scheduled to come on Saturday. Have also ordered Sarah Annie's Birth Certificate too.
The many Why's
Why did the changed middle name of the signature go unchallenged at the time.( The style of the Capital "N" of Newmans suggest to me the writer was a confident writer)
Why did a different clergyman want to accept the reasons for changing an earlier document.
Why did the couple want to change the document.
The What Ifs could also carry one down a dark road.
Still Hopeful
NormanE
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I have ordered the Civil Certificate for the 1893 marriage which is scheduled to come on Saturday. Have also ordered Sarah Annie's Birth Certificate too.
Let us know the outcome please Norman :)
JJ
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From NormanE
It has just occurred to me that there might have been a Newspaper Report on the Wedding in 1893. Before starting a new thread does anyone know, what Newspaper would have covered the Wirksworth area and if there is an archive?
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Find My Past and British Newspaper Archives show some reports from Derbyshire newspapers.
They are both subscription sites.
Indexes show snippets which can sometimes help.
1893 indicates the inquest on the ‘strange death of a child’ infant daughter or Alfred.
1895 Henry Udale, a youth, charged with an offence under the Vagrancy Act - gaming on a public footpath.
I wouldn’t think there would be a marriage report really but you can try.
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Your other thread has got me looking again ;)
If Caroline is the daughter of Joseph and Emma Emery those parents die in 1890s in Kings Norton.
This lends itself to be the right family because of the children’s births in K N.
However, I can’t see the siblings in marriages or deaths after the 1891 census.
I know we are looking for Caroline (I think) but maybe their disappearance is connected to hers :-\
I was hoping to find her sister Emily’s marriage. Caroline might have been a witness.
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Your other thread has got me looking again ;)
If Caroline is the daughter of Joseph and Emma Emery those parents die in 1890s in Kings Norton.
This lends itself to be the right family because of the children’s births in K N.
However, I can’t see the siblings in marriages or deaths after the 1891 census.
I know we are looking for Caroline (I think) but maybe their disappearance is connected to hers :-\
I was hoping to find her sister Emily’s marriage. Caroline might have been a witness.
Joseph jnr dies Q3 1891
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Thanks Mabel.
This looks to be the sequence
Joseph jr 1891 Stourbridge
Joseph snr 1894 Stourbridge
Carrie Udale 1895 Stourbridge
Emma, mother, 1897 Kings Norton
Sarah Annie Udale 1899 Kings Norton
I can’t see Charles T or Emily - siblings :-\
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A couple of newspaper snippets mention Joseph snr’s death on Christmas night, 1894.
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From NormanE
Thanks for the latest comments and suggestions
I am realising that as a senior senior I don't see all the options available so clearly or so quickly
First the Frederick Udale 1893 marriage certificate didn't arrive yesterday. I am now feeling this won't add anything since looking at the GRO Index page for the marriage, CAROLINE has been added by hand at the bottom of the Davis page. I have written to the GRO to see if there is any documentation available covering the change.
As part of my slower thinking process I have realised that as the Frederick marriage was by BANNS and there could be Banns records available. I'll contact Derbyshire Records Office tomorrow.
I am not sure the latest thought has any value. The Christian names of Frederick's two Udale children, Carrie and Sarah Annie could be linked to relationships. Carrie is a Pet name for Caroline, Sarah is the name of Frederick's mother and what about the Annie on the marriage certificate.
Tomorrow may bring progress
NormanE
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Thanks for the update Norman. Let’s hope the certificate arrives soon.
As you can see, we don’t like to give up. :)
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From NormanE
The marriage certificate for Frederick Udales 1893 marriage has arrived. As I feared the document has no mention of the change to Caroline Davis and leaves us with Annie Newmans and Annie Yeomans.
We are probably getting near to an unfulfilled end to this saga with only the hopes of marriage banns existing and my query to the GRO about 3 candidate brides.
Sarah Annie Udales 1898 Birth certificate says mother is Caroline formerly Emery. Interestingly Frederick Udale is described as a " Licensed Hawker" and not the Engine Driver at the marriage or on Sarah Annie's Death Certificate
NormanE
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Thanks Norman.
Yes it seems as though it has reached a conclusion - it all remains a mystery.
I wonder if he swapped brides as he seems to have swapped jobs.
Best wishes
Heywood
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I still think Carrie’s birth certificate would be interesting, in that she may have been born at the Emery family home.
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I still think Carrie’s birth certificate would be interesting, in that she may have been born at the Emery family home.
Yes that’s a good point and would hopefully confirm the Emery relationship.
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From NormanE
Some developments here at last
The hoped for Marriage Banns for Frederick's 1893 marriage don't exist unfortunately.
The Marriage Certificate for the 1893 marriage has arrived. Looking at the Certificate it seems to me that Frederick and bride (Caroline?) had nothing to do with the writing on it. The writing seems to be the same as the curates, W M Drake who signed it.
Could this be the reason Frederick and Caroline returned to correct the document. If I am right the curate is going to get a piece of my mind!!!
NormanE
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NormanE - from what you say, the certificate you have received has been written out at the GRO, if that is where you ordered it from. That is why all the writing is the same - it’s all one (modern) person writing it out for the purposes of providing a certificate, long after the event. It is not an image of the marriage register, which I think you have already seen online, amendments and all.
The certificate could never have provided better information than the original marriage register, which was written up at the time of the marriage, signed by the parties at the time, and is also where the amendments were originally made.
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Thanks AVM228
You are absolutely right the original with the corrections is different from the latest version. However does this mean the latest version( which has all the black dots of an old version on the paper) is GRO's considered? If you remember I have an unanswered query about this.
Almost back to square one again.
NormanE
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Hi NormanE,
Did you order the PDF version from GRO? If so, that is a copy of the original entry according to this - hence the black dots etc.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/PDF_most_customers_want_to_know.asp#PDF1
What I am not sure about though is if the entry would have been done by one person and not therefore signed by the parties.
As a last attempt for some clarification, perhaps Carrie’s birth certificate would help.
Heywood
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PDFs aren’t available for marriages currently, as I understand it.
In any event the original entry is available online - so I don’t see how any copy produced by the GRO could have been more useful that the original.
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PDFs aren’t available for marriages.
In any event the original is available online.
:D Oh I knew that ::) but just forgot ;)
I quoted the original from the church records way back in this thread but I wondered if the civil record shows any amendments and presumably not.
When I have sent for marriages, they are, as you say, modern handwritten copies. I was thinking about the black dots ???
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I amended my post because I thought it sounded (unintentionally) rather aggressive :)
Black dots?
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Thanks AVM228
You are absolutely right the original with the corrections is different from the latest version. However does this mean the latest version( which has all the black dots of an old version on the paper) is GRO's considered? If you remember I have an unanswered query about this.
Almost back to square one again.
NormanE
avm228,
I didn’t think it was aggressive so no problem there. I pointed the same thing out to someone the other week but it never dawned on me today.
This is the post I was referring to re black dots.
What seems odd to me, with no experience of amendments, is that the original church record was amended but not the civil one but Free BMD shows ‘Caroline Davis’ plus Annie ...
Just checked Free BMD index page and Caroline has been added in handwritten form as though it is an ommission - no annotation re the reason.
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Ah yes. Well I suppose GRO have on record (1) the original info as submitted from the parish in 1893, and (2) the amended info which as you say must have been submitted from the parish in 1897, otherwise it wouldn’t be reflected on FreeBMD or on the underlying GRO index.
From NormanE
The marriage certificate for Frederick Udales 1893 marriage has arrived. As I feared the document has no mention of the change to Caroline Davis and leaves us with Annie Newmans and Annie Yeomans.
This suggests they have used (1) rather than (2) as the basis of the new certificate, which therefore tells only half the story.
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Complicated ::)
I feel like a dog with a bone here but the birth certificate could help. I say ‘could’ because maybe not but it might inform re Caroline as mother and perhaps if she was with her Emery parents.
There were Yeomans in Wirksworth and Davis but I didn’t see a connection.
Also, if the bride was local to Wirksworth, you would think that his family would be aware :-\
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From NormanE
Friends
I now have both certificates for the children born to Frederick UDALE and our problem lady(Caroline?)
First is in Stourbridge District and Sub District of Stourbridge and is for Carrie UDALE born 7th October 1895 at Field Lane Oldswinford Worcestershire. Mothers name Carrie UDALE formerly EMERY. Father, Frederick UDALE, occupation, Labourer in a Stone Quarry
The second is in the Kings Norton District and Sub District of Kings Norton and is for Sarah Annie UDALE born 27th November 1898 at West End Buildings, Kings Norton. Mother's name Caroline UDALE formerly EMERY. Father, Frederick UDALE, occupation Licensed Hawker
I have also had a reply from the GRO about my query about three names for the wife of Frederick UDALE. Totally unhelpful saying they don't have information to back up the Index.
I suppose we are left with the best candidate Caroline Emery Born to Joseph Emery at Lye Worcestershire in 1872. Nothing better as far as I can see.
"Is this where she came from and where did she go"
NormanE
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Hello again NormanE
Who was the informant of Carrie's 1895 birth please - was it Carrie senior, or someone else, and did the informant give the same address as where the birth took place or a different address?
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AVM228
Re Carrie UDALE 1895 birth. The informant was her mother giving the same address as the birthplace
NormanE
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How frustrating is this.
At least it does seem that Caroline Emery was the mother of the two children, although that is little comfort.
It is just so odd. I just don’t know what to think. ::)
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Very frustrating indeed that the birth address of Field Lane in the Oldswinford part of Stourbridge does not precisely match any address we have for the Emery family.
However - though it's not my area - it appears to me looking at a modern map that Field Lane (which comes off Hagley Rd to the south of Stourbridge town centre) can't be more than a few minutes walk from the Emery family's 1891 address of Birmingham St, which runs parallel to A458 Stourbridge Rd just to the east of the town centre.
1891 reference for the Emery family is RG12/2302/35/6.
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fascinating story ..I wonder if you.ll find any more information .
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A couple of newspaper snippets mention Joseph snr’s death on Christmas night, 1894.
The address in the newspaper article re Joseph Emery’s death, Christmas 1894 is Field Terrace, Oldswinford - perhaps this is Field Lane re Carrie’s birth or certainly very close.
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Ooh. Now that IS good :)