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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: AlanWatson on Friday 23 February 18 08:06 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
On 31 October 1756 in St Mary Le Strand, Mary Tong spinster of this parish married Henry Todd bachelor of St Clement Danes by licence. A succession of children was christened to them in St Clement Danes, starting the following year and including my ancestor George (christened 15 Jun 1760). Two others Griffith Henry (christened in St Martin in the Fields 28 Feb 1773) and Frances (St George Hanover Square 28 April 1776) are probably also theirs. (Westminster parish records available on FindmyPast.)
The witnesses at their wedding were both called William Tong, possibly the bride's father and brother.
William Tong of Chelsea in the parish of St George Hanover Square (presumably the brother) wrote a will dated 5 September 1797 which was proved in the Canterbury Court on 10 March 1804. (He was buried in St Mary Le Strand on 7 March 1804.) The will is fairly long and difficult to read but it mentions among others, his nephews George and Griffith Todd, his sister Ann wife of John Saunderson (they married at St Martin in the Fields on 12 June 1774), John Saunderson of Penrith, Cumberland, son of John Saunderson, William Saunderson also son of John Saunderson the father, the testator's late brother in law Griffith Williams (and two of the late Griffith's faithful clerks) and Frances Williams, daughter of the late Sir Hugh Williams of somewhere that might read Beaumaris North Wales (on Anglesey).
Assuming that this reading is correct, Sir Hugh Williams would have been the baronet/MP described here http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1754-1790/member/williams-sir-hugh-1718-94 who died in 1794. He had a daughter Frances Emma christened in Beaumaris on 10 Oct 1765 who may well have been the Frances mentioned in the will.
Apart from a James Saunderson christened in St Martin in the Fields in June 1789 to parents John and Ann, I am struggling to find other records of the family - anything else on the Saundersons, birth and death records of Mary nee Tong and husband George Todd, their marriage licence, a birth for William Tong in the will, anything on William Tong the father, anything sure on Griffith Williams or anything to clarify the relationship between the Saundersons and the Williamses.
This is essentially a continuation of an earlier thread on the Todds (here http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=745934.msg6437514#msg6437514). Rootschatters were then very helpful in clarifying other parts of the Todd family, although at that stage we did not find the Todd/Tong marriage or related christenings. As I explained in the earlier thread, FamilySearch, following a pedigree prepared by a cousin George William Todd, had the wife of Henry Todd and the mother of George and Griffith Henry as Frances Williams. It also showed her descent from John of Gaunt via Sir Griffith Williams (wikipedia here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Griffith_Williams,_1st_Baronet - 1st Baronet in the line in which sir Hugh was the 8th) whose name was said to be the source of the christian name Griffith which appears throughout the Todd family tree.
I think that the Todd/Tong marriage and subsequent christenings show that this pedigree was wrong, but the presence of a Frances Williams, a Griffith Williams and a Williams baronet in William Tong's will suggest that there might have been an element of truth in it.
I would love to uncover the real relationship between the Todd, Tong and Willams families and would be very grateful for any help that Rootschatters might be able to give.
Many thanks,
Alan Watson
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Hello
Could William Tong junior of the Strand be married to Miss Williams sister of Griffith Williams.
William Tong licence to marry Frances Williams 29.1.1766 at St Mary le Strand.
William is 28 of Mary le Strand ,Frances 26 of the parish of Putney.
They married 2 Feb 1766.
There's an apprenticeship of William Tong master glazier St Mary le Strand for John King s of Ann King 31.12.1735 who may be Dad.
And his possible marriage at St Clement Danes to Maline Yates 6.2.1734 bach and spinster both of this parish.
That would give 4 years to the birth of son William.
Maline Tong was buried 16 Sep 1741 at St Mary le Strand .
Henry Todd of the Strand is on Westminster rates books 1754-1771
Ciderdrinker
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Many thanks. All that looks extremely likely.
It's a little surprising that the baptisms of Ann, Mary and William Tong don't appear in the Westminster Parish records, but these things happen.
Ann Tong would have been a little old when she married in 1774 if her mother was Maline Yates, but the first William Tong could easily have married again.
Given the recurrence of names it seems likely that Frances and Griffith Williams were cousins of the other Frances Williams, daughter of Sir Hugh. The Williams Baronets are described here https://archive.org/stream/cu31924092524390#page/n233/mode/2up but there is little on other branches of the family.
Maline Yates is not a very common name, and there were two more of them in Herefordshire in the previous century.
I'm very grateful.
Alan
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Hi,
I neglected to mention in my original post that I owe a debt to the owner of a public tree on Ancestry - the husband of a cousin - who discovered the Todd/Tong marriage and baptisms. I have now been in contact with him. He independently found the Tong/Williams marriage that Ciderdrinker also found and also tells me that the licence for the Todd/Tong marriage (from the Vicar General) is available from the Society of Genealogists. He hopes to obtain a copy.
Alan
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Have you seen this Will? Possibly more of a hindrance than a help. Can Ann have both a father and an uncle called William Tong? Maybe I’ve misread it. (Transcribed as William Long)
William Tong - St.Mary Strand - glazier 1765
(Names I can pick out)
My sister Elizabeth Tong of the parish of ? in the county of Lincoln.
My niece Ann Tong of St.Mary, Strand Executrix William Tong her father
My niece Mary wife of Henry Todd and their sons William Todd and George Todd.
Mrs. Catherine Burwood who now lives with me.
My nephew William Tong.
Alan, I see that the 1797 will of William Tong mentions the Cresswells of Rochester, from one of your earlier posts. A lovely piece of confirmation to have.
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Hello Lily,
Lovely to see you on the case. Well done for finding the will; Ancestry managed to get both the name and the parish wrong which must have made it hard to find.
It seems very likely to be the same William Tong glazier as Ciderdrinker found in the apprenticeship records and probably the same one who married Maline Yates.
I agree that the relationships are very puzzling. Surely there couldn't have been two brothers William Tong at the same time. Perhaps the words 'nephew' and 'niece' are used inexactly, to describe a great nephew/niece or a first cousin once removed or similar. Or I suppose that it is logically possible that this William Tong married the sister of the first William Tong so that Ann had a father and an uncle called William Tong who weren't brothers.
Perhaps the great uncle/great niece option is most promising, but it would be lovely to find something else to clarify.
Then there is 'my nephew William Tong' mentioned in the will. Was he Ann's brother or cousin or possibly if she was a great niece and he an ordinary nephew her father. All rather puzzling.
Yes the mention of William Cresswell in the first will is very satisfying. You may recall that William Cresswell was mentioned in the will of Ellin Cresswell's husband George Strover (George Todd's father in law). You also found his christening record, although not one for Ellin. We assumed that they were brother and sister but couldn't really prove it. Although this latest mention provides further evidence that we are looking at the same extended family, it doesn't really help close that question.
Anyway, many thanks for finding and sharing the will.
Alan
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I wonder if the William Tong who died 1765 was the one who was given Freedom of the City in 1750
William Tong - glazier
Son of Richard Tong of ? in the county of Lincolnshire.
There are more Tongs than I’d expected. Do you think there’s any connection to the one in King’s Bench Prison, Surrey 1804? Mentioned in the London Gazette Issues 15725 page 970; 15727 page 987 and 15725 page 946. I would have thought not, but it states “formerley of Battle Bridge, Islington” and William Tong dd.1797/1804 mentions owning property at Battle Bridge, St.Pancras.
Not getting anywhere with the Saundersons or Williames.
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This might be William Tong who died 1765:
William Tong baptised 1729 in Haxey, Lincolnshire
Parents Richard and Elizabeth
A sister living in Haxey was mentioned in his will.
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Richard Tong married Eliza Lawton in Haxley in 1724. They also christened an Ann Tong (the name of the sister mentioned in the will) on 31 May 1737.
Obviously, the William christened in 1729 could not have been the same one who was already a master glazier in 1735 or who married Maline Yates in 1734, but we already knew that we had several related William Tongs.
The Haxey records also have a family christened there in the 1690s including Sarah (1693), William (1695) and Richard (1698), all with father William and mother Sarah.
There's also a Canterbury will proved 23 May 1655 of the wonderfully named Hercules Tong of Owston Lincolnshire, not far away which makes a bequest to his brother William.
I'm not quite sure what to make of all this, or of Lily's earlier discovery about the King's Bench Prison.
Alan
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William Tong son of William Tong husbandman of Craseloud Lincolnshire was apprenticed to be a plumber /glazier in Mansfield in 1710.
This must be the William born 1695. I think that the Freeman of London was from the same place and his nephew.
Alan
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Moving to the Williamses, there’s this will. It may help somewhere along the line.
Frances Williams - Putney - dated 1762
I find it difficult to read, but can make out:
Nephew Griffiths Williams
Nieces Frances; Margaret and Mary Williams
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Another great spot. As she was a spinster and died in 1762 she can't have been either of the Frances Williamses that we have identified so far or their mother, but her location in Putney and the names in the will clearly place in in the family.
I think she asks to be buried in Putney Church (she was on 5 Oct 1762) as close as possible to her dear mother 'William Church's wife' - although I definitely can't be sure about that and I haven't found any trace of his marriage/burial. Perhaps others could read this part of the text and see whether they can be more sure of what it says.
I agree about the names mentioned in the will, meaning that Frances Williams who married William Tong had sisters Mary and Margaret and an aunt Frances as well as her brother Griffith.
By the way, the niece Frances Williams b c 1740 who married William Tong in 1766 may have been buried in St Mary Le Strand on 4 Jun 1795 which would explain why she didn't feature in his will dated 1797.
Also Mary Todd nee Tong who sister of William Tong who died 1804 may have been buried in St Martin in the Fields on 15 March 1786 or in St Mary Le Strand on 25 December 1788, either of which would explain why she didn't feature in the will.
Alan
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Well read that it says mother. The husband’s name looks like Curteis to me. There was a William Curteis buried at Putney in 1747, but I can’t see anyone else with that name. Nor a promising marriage.
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I think she asks to be buried in Putney Church (she was on 5 Oct 1762) as close as possible to her dear mother 'William Church's wife' - although I definitely can't be sure about that and I haven't found any trace of his marriage/burial. Perhaps others could read this part of the text and see whether they can be more sure of what it says.
... to be Buried as near my late and Dear Unckle
William Curties in the Middle Isle near the Reading Desk
in Putney Church ...
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Well worked out Bookbox.
I can see who William Curteis was, but I can’t see where he fits in with the Williamses.
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I am trying (and failing) to get my mind around the various William Tongs and their relationship to Mary Tong who married Henry Todd in 1756 and had her last child in 1776, putting her birth between 1730 and 1740.
It seems to me that Craseloud (mentioned in the Mansfield apprenticeship and the freedom of the City) was probably a farm in Haxey, Lincolnshire, where we have
William (husbandman) and Sarah who baptised
Anna (1690)
Sarah (1693)
William (1695) apprentice glazier Mansfield 1710 took an apprentice in Strand 1735 m M Yates 1734
Richard (1698) (farmer) m 1724 Eliza Lawton and baptised
Sarah (1725)
William (1729) bought Freedom City of London 1750 as a Glazier
Mary (1733)
Ann (1738)
The will of William Tong proved in 1804 mentions his late brother in law Griffith Williams, so he the probably married Frances Williams in 1766. His wedding licence states that he was 28 years old at the time - ie he may have been born cir 1738. This date fits well with him being the son of William chr 1695 and m 1734.
His will also mentions among others
His sister Ann m John Saunderson (in 1774)
His nephews George and Griffith Todd (which would make him Mary's brother - their dates of birth are also consistent.)
Turning to the will of William Tong glazier of St Mary Le Strand proved 1765, the first problem was the reading that it mentiona my niece Ann Tong of St Mary Strand and William Tong her father. I now wonder whether this was 'William Tong hereafter to be mentioned' - ie his nephew William Tong who appeared later. (Could others check?)
It also mentioned
My sister Elizabeth Tong of Haxey (whose christening I can't see)
My niece Ann Tong of St.Mary, Strand (Executrix)
My niece Mary wife of Henry Todd and their sons William Todd and George Todd.
My nephew William Tong.
It seems clear that the author of this will was the uncle of the William Todd of the 1804 will - he mentions a nephew William; Mary and Ann were his nieces and the other William's sisters. William (1695) was uncle to William (1729) but the dates don't work - the latter William's age at marriage would have been out by nine years.
If William (d 1804) and Mary were children of William (1695) then William (1729) would have been Mary's cousin and only a few years older than her. He would surely not have referred to her as his niece.
And William (1695) could not have had an uncle William Tong, since his father was also William Tong. A great uncle would have been too old to have lived until 1765.
I am confused. Perhaps the christenings in Haxey are red herrings, but this seems unlikely as the place is mentioned in one of the wills and Lincolnshire in the glazier apprentice/freedom documents, or perhaps William d 1804 did not marry Frances Williams or his age on his marriage licence was wrong.
And of course, we haven't yet found baptisms for Mary and many of the others which might help clarify.
Any thoughts gratefully received.
Alan
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Have you had any luck yet, sorting the Tongs out?
I don’t have the solution - these are just my thoughts.
I haven’t been able to find any Tong family that fits better than the family you have found in Haxey.
The main obstacle is William stating that he was 28 years old when he married Frances. (Are we prepared to disbelieve him?)
I agree with you that I misinterpreted “hereafter” for “her father” on the 1765 will. So William could have been a true uncle.
If he was the one born 1695 in Haxey with parents William and Sarah, these could be his family:
Burials in Haxey
1693 Sarah d.of William Tong
1717 Ann d.of William and Sarah Tong
1719 Sarah wife of William Tong
1722 William Tong
1762 Richard Tong
(Just a possibility - As the Haxey baptisms don’t appear to start until 1690, maybe sister Elizabeth was born before then).
This leaves William Tong with his brother Richard’s wife and children, William, Sarah, Mary and Ann.
Off to St.Mary le Strand
The only Tong burials at that time are:
1741 Maline
1765 William (possible uncle b.1695)
1795 Frances (probably nee Williams)
1804 William (the brother)
1747 Sarah (MAYBE Richard’s daughter b.1725)
1764 Elizabeth (MAYBE sister Elizabeth from Haxey) (I can’t find a record of her dying in Haxey. William Tong’s 1765 will was actually written in 1763, so she would still have been alive then.)
How many maybes are acceptable?
There’s no burial amongst these for Richard’s wife Eliza.
I think Craseloud should be Graizeloud. A hamlet of Haxey.
Seen from the Westminster Rates, the Tong family lived in the same house on the Strand from, at least, 1743 - 1789.
Of the two William Tong witnesses at the Todd/Tong marriage (comparing signatures) - one was on the St.Mary’s church committee from 1755 - 1764 the other from 1769 - 1789.
The William who married Maline was a constable at the parish in 1744 (same signature). The signature differs from “uncle” William’s, so I can’t be sure if it is him.
It’s really all down to William born 1729 or 1738.
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Many thanks for your efforts on this. You have got further than me, particularly on finding Graizelound (very convincing) and checking out the signatures.
Putting the wedding licence to one side, the dates all look coherent. In particular, Richard's death in 1762 fits well with his brother writing a will in 1763 in which wasn't mentioned, and as you point out even if the Elizabeth who died in 1764 was the sister, the date is not inconsistent (although a burial in Haxey would have been neater).
The marriage licence is annoying though. The age of 28 is very specific, when 'over 21' would have done. And a baptism for Elizabeth would have been nice.
I have been trying and failing to find other wills that might shed extra light - Williams, Todd, Yates or Saunderson. I still hope to get a copy of the Todd/Tong marriage licence, but I don't see how this will help with the Tongs.
In the absence of any other information, I think that your suggestion is best, despite the inconsistency over the dob.
Thanks again for all your insights and hard work.
Alan
PS I also wonder about the late brother in law Griffith Williams, why he had two clerks but was unable to make sufficient provision for them himself, but have drawn a blank on this too.
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As a minor aside, Griffith Henry Todd, b 1773 to Henry Todd and Mary nee Tong and mentioned in William Tong's 1804 will married Sarah Williams in 1801 in St Martin of the Fields - him widower (previously married to Elizabeth Bott) and her spinster, both of this parish. The marriage was by licence which I have not yet found. They had three children that I can see Griffith Henry (1804), Sarah (1806) and Elizabeth (1811), Griffith Henry christened in St Martin in the Fields and the other two in St Giles in the Fields.
Williams is quite a common name so there may be no relation between his wife Sarah Williams and Frances Williams, but then again there might be. I haven't found Sarah's birth or parents yet.
Alan
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I find myself puzzled again and in need of more help.
My collaborator on Ancestry has pointed me back to the apprenticeship record that I mentioned in my first post in the earlier Rootshat thread here http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=745934.0
I mentioned there that my ancestor "Thomas’s father may have been the George Todd, son of Henry Todd linen draper, St Martin in the Fields, who was apprenticed to the Glazier’s company in 1774. In that case Thomas’s brother William Todd was admitted to the Glazier’s company by patronage in 1825."
What I didn't mention, because it didn't seem relevant, was that George Todd's apprentice master was (transcribed as) William Tongue.
This now seems very relevant indeed, since we know that both the William Tong's in the wills were glaziers and that George Todd was specifically mentioned in the 1804 will of the William Tong who must have taken him as an apprentice. Also all this generation of our Todds were from St Martin in the Fields or St Clement Danes just up the strand.
Ciderdrinker replied as follows
Hello
Let's start with that second marriage in 1839 which you already have.
It clearly states Thomas is a widower cowkeeper Greenwich son of George Todd stockbroker.
The baptism i think is him is at St George Hannover Square 12.2.1801
Thomas Todd s of George and Mary Todd born January 10th. No other details.
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london Lives website gives a poll book which looks like George.
George Todd exchange broker St George Hannover Square Grosvenor Row 1802 voted for Gardener.
So it does look like that baptism for Thomas at Hannover square is right.
The same year there is a George Todd linen draper in the strand who voted for Gardner and Fox but i really don't think he is the same man.
Ciderdrinker
It seems clear that George Todd of St Martins in the Fields apprenticed to William Tong was from the Todd/Tong/Williams family that we have been discussing here. But can he really have been a glazier, a linen draper and a stockbroker?
On the other hand, I know (for all the reasons set out in the earlier thread) that my Thomas Todd was the son of George Todd and Mary Strover and, as Lily pointed out in this thread, the same 1804 will that mentions George and Griffith Todd, also mentions William Cresswell, Mary Strover's maternal uncle.
But if our George Todd was apprenticed as a glazier but then became an exchange broker, then is it really credible that another George Todd ran a linen draper's business in The Strand where our George Todd's father Henry had earlier been a linen draper?
Of course George Todd the linen draper (who was in the Strand for some time according to the poll books and couple of Old Bailey cases) may have been a nephew or cousin or something, but I can't find BMD records, wills or anything else that would help resolve this.
Another of my problems is that I don't have clear dates of death, wills or burial records for George Todd (exchange broker) or his wife Mary nee Strover.
All thoughts gratefully received.
Alan
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Hi,
As comments have dried up I would like to thank everyone for their contributions and declare the thread closed. In doing so, it seems sensible to summarise my remaining doubt and question for the record.
Could George Todd member of the company of glaziers of St Pancras in 1796 really have been George Todd exchange broker of St George Hanover Square in 1802? If so, everything fits; if not, we have merged two families together.
Unfortunately I can’t find his or his wife’s wills which might resolve the issues. Here is the evidence:
- The elder William Tong’s 1763 will included a bequest to ‘my niece Mary Todd the wife of Henry Todd of St Clement Danes linen draper’.
- George Todd, son of Henry Todd linen draper of St Martin in the Fields was apprenticed to (the younger), William Tong glazier in 1774.
- The younger William Tong’s 1797 will refers to George Todd of St Pancras.
- George Todd member of the Company of Glaziers living St Pancras voted in a 1796 City of London election.
- William and Mary Todd were christened in St Pancras (or nearby) to parents George and Mary.
- William Tong, glazier voted in the same 1796 City of London election in Grosvenor Row, Chelsea, parish of St George Hanover Square. He used the same address in his 1797 will and paid tax there in 1802 before dying in 1804.
- George Todd exchange broker voted at Grosvenor Row, Chelsea in 1802.
- A George Todd was master of the Worshipful Company of Glaziers in 1804.
- Griffith, Thomas and Richard Todd were christened a St George Hanover Square to parents George and Mary in 1797, 1801 and 1804.
- Griffith Todd’s 1813 apprenticeship refers to his father as a broker living in Islington rather than Hanover Square; the record of son Thomas’s second marriage in 1839 also refers to his father as a broker.
- There is lots of evidence putting children William, Mary, Griffith, Thomas and Richard in the same family. William and Mary were plainly brother and sister from their wedding records and Mary’s will. So too were Griffith, Thomas and Richard. William became a member of the guild of glaziers by patrimony but worked as a stockbroker. Griffith Todd and his wife Mary and William Todd and his wife Susannah registered the births of their children at Dr Williams’ library on the same day in 1835.
On balance I think that this must be one George Todd. Of course all we know from 1796 is that he was a member of the Company of Glaziers, not that he was working as one. He was apprenticed as a glazier in 1774, but his master/mentor/uncle William Tong described himself as a ‘gentleman’ rather than glazier in his 1797 will and was plainly a rich man at that time. George Todd could have taken up a different and more lucrative profession some time after completing his apprenticeship. Even so, it's not completely satisfactory.
Then there is the George Todd linen draper who voted in 1802 in the Strand. He lived in the same street and had the same occupation as Henry Todd, father of George the glazier. Where does he fit in?
Thanks again for all your help.
Alan
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Hi Alan, Just a couple of bits to add to your timeline above.
1789-1795 George Todd took over as rate payer of the same house (the Strand, two doors from
Windsor Court) where William Tong had lived up till that time.
1790 Old Bailey - In the parish of St.Mary le Strand
George Todd - "I am a plumber and glazier"
1813 The apprenticeship you mentioned
Griffith Todd son of George Todd of 10 Owen's Place, Goswell Street - broker - bound to
Robert Thompson of Holborn - grocer
This fits in with George Todd the broker, who lived in Clerkenwell from, at least, 1808-1823
Surely, these are one and the same man.
As for George Todd the linen draper!! I'd like to dismiss him, but can't find any concrete evidence to do so, except, perhaps, the Old Bailey statement in 1815 "I am a linen draper in the Strand - my shop is part of my house". Unlikely to be yours, as none of the children were born there.
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After looking at several hundred linen drapers in the past, I'd never say rule someone out for 3 occupations, as it seems to be not all that unusual. Masters often appear to give their credentials under their livery company status but actual occupations can often appear as one or two unrelated crafts / occupations. (ie: our Fishmongers who were clothworkers?)
Have no idea if related, but as an example:
This John Wm Tongue....who acquired his own freedom in 1823, somehow deserved a knighthood somewhere betw 1848/1853
Began as an Undertaker, then Carpenter & Undertaker, then Undertaker & Boxmaker
70 & 71 North St John Street Smithfield, Msex - always as a Master Co Clothworker
!!! 1768 -William Tong "Master -Citizen and glazier, Co Draper"
Occupation "plumber" - "Strand near the new church", Middlesex
1715 William Tonge new apprentice father James
William Tonge New freeman Co Draper - father James Tonge woollendraper - maidstone Kent
1729 William Tonge -Occupation not stated - MasterCo Draper
1739 a Wm Tong witnesses as Wm. Tong Co Draper
1781 James Tonge New Draper's apprentice -father James Tonge grocer - Sittingbourne Kent, Kent
started out with William Field "cheesemonger" - Thames Street, London "Master Co Draper"
ended up with George "Harris" - "haberdasher" - Fleet Street S Brides, London "master Citizen & weaver"
( at freedom master Harris listed as Citizen & weaver Co Draper - Chatham Kent, Kent)
More under Tong Tonge Tongue http://www.londonroll.org/
Too early to be that Henry Todd, the draper, but will add as another example of oddities...
Henry Todd- father Christopher Todd of Durham -New apprentice 1704 who did well over his req'd time (freedom 1717) Christopher Doeker - "bellmonger" - Barnby Street Southwark, Surrey Master Co Draper
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Good to hear from you JJ, and with lots of interesting stuff as always. I will have to look into William Tong glazier and draper of the strand in particular.
As an aside, my collaborator on Ancestry points out that it holds London Stock Exchange membership records, in theory starting in 1802. Our exchange brokers, George and William Todd appear there, the former from 1805 and the latter from his father's death in 1825. The entries confirmed the addresses in Islington that we already had, but don't really help resolve whether the broker and the glazier were the same person.
Alan
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Thank you very much for this thread - I stumbled across it today, while trying to untangle some confusion around who my ancestor George Todd's mother was, and it saved me a lot of time.
I just thought I'd ask if you'd made any more progress on this since the last post in this thread. Thanks!