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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Aberdeenshire => Topic started by: AlasdairGTW on Saturday 24 February 18 03:58 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
Hoping someone can please help me, I am struggling to find any information on my Great Great Grandfather Alexander Will's birth, this obviously preventing me going any further back.
I had first thought that maybe Alexander was being looked after by Ann Innes on behalf of someone else, my thoughts were on behalf of James Will and Margaret Bain of Speymouth, they had a son Alexander Will around about the same time as my GGGF was born and also a younger daughter Margaret McKidd Will, I thought the ages fitted in well with the Margaret that later appears with Ann Innes in 1861 census New Pitsligo but later found a death registration for an Alexander Will born to James and Margaret……… any advice or breakthroughs most welcome.
Heres what I have so far -
BIRTH
Alexander Will - Born about 1850
MARRIAGE 1 - 1871 WILL, ALEXANDER (Statutory registers Marriages 169/ 13)
16/12/1871 (roughly 3 years after the birth of Mary Ann?)
Alexander a 21 year old Farm Servant, resident of Tillywharn Farm, parents Alexander Will a Farm Labourer and Ann Innes, all work.
Barbara also 21 resident of New Aberdour, parents John McRobbie a farm labourer and Ann Hutchison.
Witness’s – Alexander McRobbie and Thomas McRobbie.
MARRIAGE 2 - 1920 WILL, ALEXANDER (Statutory registers Marriages 046/1 1)
6/02/1920 in Tulloch, Bonar, Sutherlandshire, Alexander Will aged 69 and retired Police Constable married widow Ann Mackenzie aged 48, Alexanders parents listed as Alexander Will a deceased farmer and Ann Will, witnessed by Mary Ross and Norman Forbes (Norman is the husband to Alexanders daughter Alexandrina, later moving to Canada about 1925)
DEATH Alexander James Will- 1923 WILL, ALEXANDER JAMES (Statutory registers Deaths 046/1 11)
21/06/1923 @ 06:15 in Tulloch, Bonar, Sutherland, due to Chronic Superlative Cystitis, 1 year prostatitis.
Parents listed as Alexander Will farmer (Deceased) and Ann Will (McInnes), the Mc prefix believed to be a mistake.
Previous marriages recorded 1.Barbara McRobbie and 2. Ann Mackenzie (Ann a widow previously married name was Yellowlees).
DEATH Barbara McRobbie Will - 1901 WILL, BARBARA (Statutory registers Deaths 045/8)
20/05/1901 @ 13:15 @ Police Station, Gower Street, Brora aged 50 years from Heart disease, Sudden, Different names from marriage listed, Father George McRobbie a crofter (not recorded as deceased) and Ann Hutcheon.
MOTHER Ann Innes information – 23/10/1806 INNES, ANN (Old Parish Registers Births 248/ 30 49 Tyrie) Page 49 of 143
Born/Baptized 23/10/1806 Ann natural daughter of Robert Innes and Isobel Duncan in New Pitsligo was Baptized before Thomas Urquhart.
1879 INNES, ANN (Statutory registers Deaths 227/B 44)
Death 29/11/1879 @ 11:00hrs in Poor Lodgings House, New Pitsligo aged 74, Parents both deceased, Robert Innes a Crofter and Isabella Duncan, death attributed to Chronic Bronchitis and general disability for 14 months. Registered by Alexander Will of School Street, New Aberdour.
CENSUS
1851 WILL, ALEXANDER (Census 248/ 5/ 26) Page 26 of 29 - Listed as 146 High Street New Pitsligo aged 1 year old with Ann Innes Born Tyrie, aged 44, Fish Monger.
1861 WILL, ALEXANDER (Census 227/B 2/ 13) Page 13 of 23- New Pitsligo aged 10 with mother Ann Innes a Beesom maker, aged 55 and also resident is Margaret Bane aged 6 (Grandaughter).
1871 – Possibly 19 years old in Aberdour as a farm servant Ref 169/ 2/ 3
1881 – Age 29 Police Constable in Criech Police Station, Sutherlandshire, birthplace New Pitsligo, Aberdeenshire with Barbara also aged 29 birthplace Aberdour.
Children – Mary Ann (age 13, born New Deer), Barbara (age 3, born Aberdour) and Charles James (age 5 months, born Fraserburgh).
1891 – Aged 41 Police Constable in Gower Street, Clyne, Sutherlandshire lists his birthplace as Tyrie, Aberdeenshire, with wife Barbara McRobbie Will also Age 41 and lists her birthplace as Banffshire, King Edward.
Children - Barbara (age, 13 Born Fraserbugh), Charles James (age 10, born Fraserburgh), George (age 8, born Kildonan), Alexandrina (age 7, born Kildonan), Alexander (age 3, born Clyne), Christopher Reid (age 2, born Clyne).
1901 – Aged 50 Police Constable in Gower Street, Clyne, Sutherlandshire lists his birthplace as Tyrie, Aberdeenshire, with wife Barbara McRobbie Will Age 50 and lists her birthplace as Banffshire, King Edward.
Children - Barbara (age 23, born Aberdour), George (age 18, A Stone Mason, born Kildonan), Alexander James (age 13, born Clyne), Christopher Reid (age 12, born Clyne), Alfred William (age 8 born Clyne ), William Anderson (age 6 born Clyne).
1911 – Aged 60 Police Constable in Bonar, Sutherlandshire with 2 sons and a daughter
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You are right to dismiss the couple in Speymouth, which is quite a long way from New Pitsligo. The 1851 and 1861 censuses (transcriptions at https://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl) state quite clearly that your Alexander is Ann's son. Also, this family is listed in the 1851 census in Speymouth (as Wills), including Alexander, aged under 1 year (as he was born on 28 October 1850, he was just 5 months old).
It is never safe to assume that because you can find only one person who seems to match your candidate it has to be the right one. Many births and baptisms before the start of civil registration in 1855 are simply missing from the records, either because no record was ever made, or because the record has not survived.
MARRIAGE 1 - 1871 WILL, ALEXANDER (Statutory registers Marriages 169/ 13)
parents Alexander Will a Farm Labourer and Ann Innes, all work.
Exactly how is Ann's surname listed? Does it say 'Ann Innes' or does it say 'Ann Will M S Innes'?
MARRIAGE 2 - 1920 WILL, ALEXANDER (Statutory registers Marriages 046/1 1)
6/02/1920 Alexanders parents listed as Alexander Will a deceased farmer and Ann Will
Exactly how is Ann's surname listed? Does it say 'Ann Will' or does it say 'Ann Will M S Innes'?
DEATH Alexander James Will 21/06/1923.
Parents listed as Alexander Will farmer (Deceased) and Ann Will (McInnes), the Mc prefix believed to be a mistake.
Exactly how is Ann's surname listed?
This detail is very important, because it can tell you if he was born illegitimate, which is what the 1851 and 1861 census suggest.
If this is so, there could be some record in the minutes of the Tyrie Kirk Session (the village of New Pitsligo is in the parish of Tyrie). One of the things the Kirk Sessions did was to try to eradicate extra-marital sex, and many of the minutes contain quite a lot of detail about those accused of such activities. The surviving Kirk Session records are in the National Records of Scotland (NRS). They have been digitised, and there are plans to add them to the resources on Scotland's People, but they are not indexed, so there are practical difficulties about how to make them available. At present you either have to go to the NRS or to one of the local archives that have access to them, or get someone to go on your behalf.
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Hoping someone can please help me, I am struggling to find any information on my Great Great Grandfather Alexander Will's birth, this obviously preventing me going any further back.
Heres what I have so far -
BIRTH
Alexander Will - Born about 1850
MARRIAGE 1 - 1871
WILL, ALEXANDER (Statutory registers Marriages 169/ 13)
16/12/1871 (roughly 3 years after the birth of Mary Ann?)
Alexander a 21 year old Farm Servant, resident of Tillywharn Farm,
parents Alexander Will a Farm Labourer and Ann Innes, all work.
Barbara also 21 resident of New Aberdour,
parents John McRobbie a farm labourer and Ann Hutchison.
Witness’s – Alexander McRobbie and Thomas McRobbie.
CENSUS
1851
WILL, ALEXANDER (Census 248/ 5/ 26) Page 26 of 29 - Listed as 146 High Street New Pitsligo aged 1 year old with Ann Innes Born Tyrie, aged 44, Fish Monger.
1861
WILL, ALEXANDER (Census 227/B 2/ 13) Page 13 of 23- New Pitsligo aged 10 with mother Ann Innes a Beesom maker, aged 55 and also resident is Margaret Bane aged 6 (Grandaughter).
1851 142 High Street New Pitsligo
INNES Ann Head 44 Fish Monger Aberdeenshire - Tyrie
WILL Alexander Son 1 Aberdeenshire - Tyrie
1861 Poorhouse Low St, New Pitsligo
INNES Ann Head 55 Beasom Maker Aberdeenshire - New Pitsligo
WILL Alexander Son 11 Aberdeenshire - New Pitsligo
BANE Margaret Grndau 6 Aberdeenshire - New Pitsligo
removed some details as there were not relevant
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Where did you get his year of birth from was it from the marriage entry to Barbara?
Alasdair's first post gave the date of marriage as 16/12/1871 and Alexander's age as 21. Subtract 21 fromm 1871 and you get 1850.
His second marriage, in 1920, gives his age as 69. As the marriage was in February, he would probably not have had his birthday in 1920, so he would be 70 by the end of the year. Subtract 70 from 1920 and you get 1850.
These are the only Alexander Will I can see born c1850 on 1851/61 census
Alasdair has told us that the Alexander Will he is interested in is the son of Ann Innes, and that the 1881, 1891 and 1901 censuses are consistent in saying that he was born in New Pitsligo/Parish of Tyrie. So neither of the others in the census is relevant.
1851 142 High Street New Pitsligo
INNES Ann Head 44 Fish Monger Aberdeenshire - Tyrie
WILL Alexander Son 1 Aberdeenshire - Tyrie
1861 Poorhouse Low St, New Pitsligo
INNES Ann Head 55 Beasom Maker Aberdeenshire - New Pitsligo
WILL Alexander Son 11 Aberdeenshire - New Pitsligo
BANE Margaret Grndau 6 Aberdeenshire - New Pitsligo
As the family is in the poor house in 1861, it might be worth checking for records of the Tyrie parochial board. If these have survived, they may contain information about Alexander's father and Margaret Bane's parents. The surviving Aberdeenshire parochial board records are held by Aberdeen Archives https://www.aberdeencity.gov.uk/services/libraries-and-archives/aberdeen-city-and-aberdeenshire-archives.
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Alasdair's first post gave the date of marriage as 16/12/1871 and Alexander's age as 21. Subtract 21 fromm 1871 and you get 1850.
His second marriage, in 1920, gives his age as 69. As the marriage was in February, he would probably not have had his birthday in 1920, so he would be 70 by the end of the year. Subtract 70 from 1920 and you get 1850.
As the family is in the poor house in 1861, it might be worth checking for records of the Tyrie parochial board.
If these have survived, they may contain information about Alexander's father and Margaret Bane's parents. The surviving Aberdeenshire parochial board records are held by Aberdeen Archives https://www.aberdeencity.gov.uk/services/libraries-and-archives/aberdeen-city-and-aberdeenshire-archives.
Thank you Forfarian on re reading the post I can know see that I misread Alasdair's post
struggling to find any information on my Great Great Grandfather Alexander Will's birth
so have edited my previous post deleting the info.........
There is a public tree (Alasdair's) on Ancestry some nice pictures of
Alexander James Will born 28 OCT 1850 wife Barbara McRobbie and family
1841 census is not mentioned on the Tree
Is this a possibility for Ann INNES from the 1851 census?
1841c Piece: SCT1841/248 Place: Tyrie -Aberdeenshire
Enumeration District: 1 Civil Parish: Tyrie
Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: New Pitsligo Folio: 4 Page: 4
Address: Balnamoon
INNES Ann F 35 Aberdeenshire
DUNCAN Mary F 7 Aberdeenshire
SCOTT Frances M 3 Outside Census County (1841)
Not that this helps with Alexander's birth for info just in case it's relevant
this appears to be Mary Duncan on 1861/71/81/91/01
1861c Piece: SCT1861/227 Place: New Pitsligo -Aberdeenshire Enumeration District: 1
Civil Parish: Tyrie Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: New Pitsligo Q S
Folio: 0 Page: 3 Schedule: 23
Address: 12 Low St, New Pitsligo
DUNCAN Mary Head U F 26 Agricultural Labourer Aberdeenshire - Tyrie
IMSSLIE Mary Dau F 3 Aberdeenshire - Tyrie
Is this the same person as Mary Imsslie?
Mary Duncan Birth Date: 14 Oct 1857 Birth Tyrie, Aberdeen,Scotland
Mother: Mary Duncan
1871c Piece: SCT1871/227 Place: New Pitsligo -Aberdeenshire Enumeration District: 1
Civil Parish: Tyrie Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: New Pitsligo Qs Folio: 0 Page: 4 Schedule: 26
Address: 12 Low St New Pitsligo
DUNCAN Mary Head U F 37 Char Woman Aberdeenshire - Tyrie
EMSLIE Mary Dau F 13 Aberdeenshire - Tyrie
1881c 134 High Street New Pitsligo Civil Parish: Tyrie
Mary Duncan 47
Mary Emslie Dau 28
Alexander Emslie grandson 2
Mary A Esslmont Granddau Under 1 Month
1891c 130 High Street New Pitsligo
Civil Parish: Tyrie County: Aberdeenshire
Mary Duncan 57 New Pitsligo
Margaret A Esselmont Granddau 10
George Smith Grandson 2
Margaret McKenzie Boarder 8
1901c 29 1/2 Hanover Street Fraserburgh
Mary Duncan 68 Tyrie, Aberdeenshire
Margaret E Emslie Granddaughter 20
Margaret Ann Emslie Birth Date: 3 Apr 1881 Birth Place: New Pitsligo, Aberdeen, Scotland
Mother: Mary Emslie
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Thank you both very much for all your help.
I had typed out a reply but never hit the post button, when I went back to rootchat I saw you had already looked it up, I had tried to locate Mary and Frances also to see if there were any clues.
Ancestry transcription for that 1841 census states born in "foriegn parts" for Frances Scott (could this Frances Scott be Female?, the spelling in the transcription is Female, if so there is a Frances Scott born Jamaica in the 1861 cencus in New Deer, possibly just complicating things for myself now though).
Name:Frances Scott [Fanny Scott]
Age:22
Estimated birth year:abt 1839
Relationship:Stepdaughter
Gender:Female
Where born:Jamaica
Registration Number:225
Civil Parish:New Deer
County:Aberdeenshire
Address:Artamford
Occupation:Dom Serv
Elizabeth Sangster 7
Jessie Sangster 1
Frances Scott 22
Alexander Reid 2
No adults?
I have so far opted to take the line of least resistance and work on the family tree (1855+) sections or other branches which are more obvious and easier to work out but Alexander's birth date has been bugging me for a while now...so trip to Aberdeen or Edinburgh it is!.
I did have a quick search online to work out how to search through the Kirk session minutes and for other advice on locating further information, one page recorded there are only minutes from 1853 onwards for the Kirk in New Pitsligo although there were various other church records available for before 1853, another site stated that the church was rebuilt in 1853, if this was the case the Kirk might not be up and running, is it possible that some locals would have travelled else where or attended another Church?.
I'm sure I read that Alexander was an Elder in the Church in either Rogart or Bonar, is it possible these might hold any other details?.
Thanks again
Alasdair
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Ancestry transcription states oriegn parts for Frances (could this Frances Scott be Female, the spelling implies Female, if so there is a Frances Scott born Jamaica in the 1861 cencus in New Deer, possibly just complicating things for myself now though).
Frances Scott [Fanny Scott] Age:22
Estimated birth year:abt 1839
Relationship:Stepdaughter
Gender:Female
Where born:Jamaica
Registration Number:225
Civil Parish:New Deer
County:Aberdeenshire
Address:Artamford
Occupation:Dom Serv
Elizabeth Sangster 7
Jessie Sangster 1
Frances Scott 22
Alexander Reid 2
Public tree on ancestry (Dnsfenwick) here's some of the info. - hopefully you can view yourself to see what you make of the information, unfortunately no further info. on her sister Ann Innes
1851c
Alexander Sangster 41 Farmer New Deer
Mary 32 Tyrie
Andrew 2 New Deer
FANNY SCOTT step dau 12 ? Jamaica
Mary DUNCAN 17 Tyrie general servant
Mary INNES 1817–1876 BIRTH 4 APR 1817 • Balnamoin, Tyrie
DEATH 12 FEB 1876 • Artamford, New Deer
Parents Robert INNES & Isabel DUNCAN
Siblings ANN 1806, Mary 1808, Jean 1812, William 1814
Spouse Peter SCOTT 1820 – 1841, married 29 Nov 1836 New Deer
Dau Fanny SCOTT 1839 – 1908
Spouse Alexander SANGSTER 1811 – 1880, married 18 Dec 1845 New Deer
Sons Alexander 1846, Alexander Fothergill 1848, Andrew Sangster 1849 – 1924
Dau’s Mary 1851, Lizzie 1855, Jessie 1859, Margaret Scott Sangster 1863
There's this entry for 1841 census which appears to the the same person from 1851 census
Clayfords, Strichen Aberdeenshire
Folio: 1 Page: 3
Alexr SANGSTER 30 Ag Lab
James SCOTT 14 Ag Lab
Mary INNES 20 Female Servant
all born in county
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Looks like a typical rubbish Ancestry transcription because your extract above doesn't list whose stepdaughter Frances was, and it inserts a name variant (Fanny) that doesn't appear in the original. FreeCEN https://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl has the complete transcription without any assumptions, guesswork or omissions.
In 1861 the head of household is Alexander Sangster, 49 and his wife is Mary, 44. Children are Mary, 9; Elizabeth, 7; Jessie, 1; stepdaughter Frances Scott, 22; grandson Alexander Reid, 2. All born New Deer except Mary (Tyrie) and Frances (Jamaica).
I note with interest the birth of Alexander Scott or Sangster, father Alexander Scott and mother Eliza Sangster, in New Deer on 2 May 1858. This child would have been aged two on census day 1861.
Jessie Sangster, daughter of Alexander Sangster and Mary Innes, was born in New Deer on 2 May 1859. She would have been one year old on the day of the 1861 census.
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Looks like a typical rubbish Ancestry transcription because
your extract above doesn't list whose stepdaughter Frances was, and it inserts a name variant (Fanny) that doesn't appear in the original.
1851c
Alexander Sangster 41 Farmer New Deer
Mary 32 Tyrie
Andrew 2 New Deer
FANNY SCOTT step dau 12 ? Jamaica
Mary DUNCAN 17 Tyrie general servant
The info. I typed was from the original census from public tree
Nov 2012
Ellon Library Census records
New Deer , Scottish census 1851
Had a look again and have typed the full info. from the census - perhaps if you or alasdair are able to do so you could take a look and double check the info. I've copied
16
parish of New Deer District of ?ford (can't make it out)
48 Alexander Sangster Head M 41 Farmer of 24 Acres Aberdeenshire New Deer
Mary ditto wife 32 Farmers wife ditto Tyrie
Andrew son 2 ditto son ditto New Deer
Fanny Scott stepdau 12 farmers step-dau emp. at home N?I? Jamiaca
Mary Duncan servant 17 general servant Aberdeenshire Tyrie
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Looks like a typical rubbish Ancestry transcription because
your extract above doesn't list whose stepdaughter Frances was, and it inserts a name variant (Fanny) that doesn't appear in the original.
1851c
Alexander Sangster 41 Farmer New Deer
Mary 32 Tyrie
Andrew 2 New Deer
FANNY SCOTT step dau 12 ? Jamaica
Mary DUNCAN 17 Tyrie general servant
The info. I typed was from the original census from public tree
Nov 2012
Ellon Library Census records
New Deer , Scottish census 1851
Had a look again and have typed the full info. from the census - perhaps if you or alasdair are able to do so you could take a look and double check the info. I've copied
16
parish of New Deer District of ?ford (can't make it out)
48 Alexander Sangster Head M 41 Farmer of 24 Acres Aberdeenshire New Deer
Mary ditto wife 32 Farmers wife ditto Tyrie
Andrew son 2 ditto son ditto New Deer
Fanny Scott stepdau 12 farmers step-dau emp. at home N?I? Jamiaca
Mary Duncan servant 17 general servant Aberdeenshire Tyrie
I think I'm still just as puzzled, I can't figure out the Scotts, Sangsters and Duncan's are to Ann Innes.
I understand Alexander Scott married a Mary Innes but from previous posts it would appear she would be too young to be the sister of Ann Innes i.e, born 1817 instead of the Mary Innes Born to Robert Innes and Isabel Duncan who was born in 1808.
I popped to the archives today and had a quick scan through the Kirk session minutes, sadly there was none for any meetings pre 1853....... damned if I know what to do now, I read online that the church in New Pitsligo was built in top of the old one in 1853, do you think it likely that any attendees would have travelled or moved to a successionist church while this was being rebuilt?, travel out with to attend Resulting in records being kept at an adjoining parish?.
I had a quick look in the KSM for Deer, although very interesting I couldn't find anything, plenty of information regarding a long on going charge against a Dr Lockhart who couldn't keep his paws of his servants whenever his wife was away or whenever the whisky was in!, these case records seemed to dominate the minutes throughout.
New Pitsligo KSM did however have an entry for a couple of illigitamate children between Duncan's and Emsley's, 1st was on 3rd Sept 1854 a twice ignored summons to appear by a James Duncan who later refused to acknowledge the charge raised by Isabel Emsley.
2nd being the acknowledgement of an illigitamate child by a William Emsley to a charge raised by Mary Duncan.
On 9th Aug 1867 another similar charge involving a Jane Will and a William Barry from 16 years earlier (1851)
On 3rd May 1863 again similar charge involving an Isabella Will and a William Smith from 8 years previous to charge (1855), apparently William Smith having left the county before birth never to be heard of again.
I may have a look for these later 'Will' girls in the hope this might throw up some clues but I'm struggling understanding how to find the connections or maybe I'm just too short sighted or experienced to see the relevance.