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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: paulmh on Saturday 24 February 18 21:45 GMT (UK)
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I am searching for a marriage between John H Meadth (b. Ireland, 1851) and Sarah Owens (b. Ireland, 1852).
Sarah had been previously married before to Samuel Owens in 1872, Belfast. In 1874 they had their first child whom was born in Pendleton, Lancashire, and by the time their final child was born in 1885 they had 4 living children together. Samuel died but I don't know when (or how).
In 1881 census they are living at 16 Tindal Street (or Tyndal St) in Manchester but cannot find (at least) Sarah in 1891 census.
I next find Sarah in 1901 living and married to John H Meadth but cannot find their registration of marriage. I can only assume that they were married in the Manchester area. In 1894 Sarah had an illegitimate child and whilst 1901 census lists Robert as Meadth, we don't believe John was the father!
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Why is it you don't believe John was the father? Is he to be found elsewhere in 1891?
I wouldn't assume they were legally married they may have just lived together as man n wife.
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Why is it you don't believe John was the father? Is he to be found elsewhere in 1891?
I wouldn't assume they were legally married they may have just lived together as man n wife.
I was thinking that maybe they just said that they were married but wanted to rule that one out. I thought someone with more experience may find something that I hadn't.
I don't believe John is the father as Robert's marriage cert says father unknown. Also in 1901 census Robert is listed as Stepson in relation to head of household.
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Is Robert Meadth the child born 1894 - does the birth registration give her maiden name Porter?
(I can't see a birth for Meadth)
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1901 census has Robert down as a stepson along with John Meadth 18 and Kate Meadth 16 so who are they?!
There's a birth registration for Robert Owens mothers name Porter so that assumes Samuel Owens her husband was the father.
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1901 - RG13/3718 folio 125 page 39
Except for John Meadth, aged 18, born Ireland, all other children are designated as step-children - Owens and Meadth.
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Is Robert Meadth the child born 1894 - does the birth registration give her maiden name Porter?
(I can't see a birth for Meadth)
I haven't found a registration of birth but Robert is a direct descendant for the family member whom I am researching this tree for. I would also suspect his mothers name could be listed as Owens
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1901 - RG13/3718 folio 125 page 39
Except for John Meadth, aged 18, born Ireland, all other children are designated as step-children - Owens and Meadth.
I am aware of this - most where to Samuel Owens and Robert's father is unknown. We suspect they 'lied' about there surname so it didn't look funny with so many names in one household.
Although another question strikes me. When did it become legal to change your name by deed-poll?
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I have added it above. There is one in Salford Sep 1894.
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Is this Sarah in 1891 under Owen?
Sarah Owen 38 born Belfast
Joseph H Owen 18 son born Belfast
Sarah Owen 11 dau born Pendleton
Catherine Owen 8 dau born Pendleton
Catherine Hagan 23 friend born Belfast
Patrick Rock 60 boarder born Drogheda
Sarah is down as a widow living 77 Peel Street Pendleton Salford
There's a Samuel Owen death in Manchester 1884 age 34 might be worth checking out
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I don't know if this is your Robert but there is a Robert Owen baptism 8 May 1895 to John & Sarah Owen which could mean John was the father but as they were unmarried they masqueraded as Owen :-\
I don't know if this is the right area but it was at Gt Lever St Bartholomew Bolton. Could be a different family entirely but just in case.
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Samuel Owens married Sarah Porter 1872 Belfast Ireland registration district. Volume 1 page 463.
So the maiden name 'should' always be Porter.
1891
son Joseph H Owen age 18 in 1891 states born Belfast Ireland
daughter Sarah 11 was registered Salford 1880 mmn Porter
daughter Catherine 8 was registered Salford 1882 mmn Porter
1901 Kate Meadth is actually Catherine Owen
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Apologies everyone. Thank you for all your help but I have finally been handed the marriage certificate. I am conducting this research on behalf of my in-laws and to-date have gone on what they have told me.
I have 2 copies of Robert's Marriage Certificate. One is the actual certificate and the other is for the purpose of a widow's pension. I know he died of cancer in 1938 but there is no date on this certificate.
Date: 17th July 1921 (Barton Upon Irwell)
Robert Owens Meadth 27 Bachelor Motor Salesman 6, Osborne St, Weale
Father: Hugh John Meadth (deceased) - of independent means
Annie Painter 25 Spinster Unreadable 19, Gordon St, Palmcroft
Father: Samuel Painter - Manager Warehouse
As you can see, this is where all the confusion is. Who was Hugh John Meadth and who was John H Meadth - are they the same person with the names mixed round?
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Well that's interesting he has Owens as a middle name.
Would need to find out if the "H" in John H was for Hugh so a birth for him would be good.
People did swap names about or use middle names.
So it's looking like John could be the father after all.
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In 1901 there is a boarder John M Meadth 22 born Salford but no birth record for that name.
Is Meadth an Irish surname only it doesn't appear much, I wonder if it could be under a different spelling?
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Well that's interesting he has Owens as a middle name.
Would need to find out if the "H" in John H was for Hugh so a birth for him would be good.
People did swap names about or use middle names.
So it's looking like John could be the father after all.
LOL, this is getting even more bizarre. Looking further through the pile of papers I have been handed, I have found a registration of Robert's birth.
At this point I'd like to say that finding this is a bonus but the contents of it throws it off the scale even more!
He was born on 29th July 1894 and his father is named clearly as (drum roll please)..... John Owens and his mother is Sarah Owens (formerly Porter). John is a Mechanic Fitter (journeyman) and they are now living at 18 Penny Street, Pendleton.
I was told by my mother-in-law that when Robert died there was a large congregation at his funeral. Not so much to pay there respects but to find out what is written on his headstone (Meadth or Owens). Maybe my next port of call should be to find where he was burred and look at the headstone (or inscription) myself?
Among all the other paperwork is a birth cert for Sarah Owens (b.4 March 1880, Pendleton). Her father was Samuel Owens and mother Sarah Owens (formerly Porter) but Samuel's occupation is Mechanic (fitter).
It seems odd that both fathers names have the same occupation - unless Sarah had a thing for mechanics!
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In 1901 there is a boarder John M Meadth 22 born Salford but no birth record for that name.
Is Meadth an Irish surname only it doesn't appear much, I wonder if it could be under a different spelling?
He is also a mystery and unfortunately met an awful death. He was a solider in 1911 census and on 17 April 1915 was drowned at Galipoli when his Manitou was torpedoed. Little is known about him other than he was born in Dublin (no dob), he was single and left his Effects to his brother Thomas. His regiment number was 41807 and was a Driver for the Royal Field Artillery. sadly this is all I know about him.
I had seen that John Meadth (married to Sarah) in 1901 census had a son called John (b. c1883) - at present I've not looked at what happened to him but ponder whether this is the same one whom died in WWI.
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Maybe she liked the uniform!
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Maybe she liked the uniform!
It is one possibility.
Can you advise on where I go next as all this information is bamboozling and nothing seems clear.
Robert won't be in it but I don't believe I have found Sarah in the 1891 census - could this unlock something. Or even if I found Robert's gravestone?
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I posted an 1891 for Sarah earlier look up the page. It was transcribed as Owen but I believe the details match.
It’s reply number 9 :)
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Is this Sarah in 1891 under Owen?
Sarah Owen 38 born Belfast
Joseph H Owen 18 son born Belfast
Sarah Owen 11 dau born Pendleton
Catherine Owen 8 dau born Pendleton
Catherine Hagan 23 friend born Belfast
Patrick Rock 60 boarder born Drogheda
Sarah is down as a widow living 77 Peel Street Pendleton Salford
There's a Samuel Owen death in Manchester 1884 age 34 might be worth checking out
The information suggests that it could be the same Sarah. We know they lived around the Pendleton area and that both she and Samuel had 4 children that I know of; Samuel (b. 1874, Pendleton), Martha W (b. 1877, Pendleton), Sarah (b. 1880, Salford), and Kate (b. 1885 Salford).
So who was Joseph, and where were Samuel & Martha in 1891?
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Joseph must have been the oldest son born Ireland before they moved over to England.
Samuel and Martha would have been old enough by 1891 to be out on their own or as servants somewhere.
Will have a look for them.
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Martha has a second name Wilhelmina and there is a death in Mar 1884 Salford for a
Martha Wilhelmina Owens age 6 so that sadly could be why she isn't around in 1891 :(
Also a Samuel Owens death age 10 Sep 1884 Salford but would really need the death certificate to confirm he was "your" Samuel.
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Births for Owens mothers name Porter in Salford
Jun 1877 Martha Wilhelmina
Jun 1880 Sarah
Dec 1882 Catherine
Sep 1885 Martha - that would make sense if the other Martha had died **
Sep 1894 Robert
Can't see the birth for Samuel yet and Joseph would be in Ireland
** possible death for the second Martha Jun 1886 Salford age 0
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Wrong info deleted.
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Ok Joseph is throwing me off, why isn't he with the family in 1881.
There is a Joseph H Owens age 7 as a boarder in 1881 :-\ down as born Liverpool.
Head of the house is Harriet E A Lindsay 47 widow dressmaker
Mary L Lindsay 18 daughter school mistress
Maud C L Lindsay 9 boarder
but don't know if this is the right Joseph or why he is out boarding
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Ok Joseph is throwing me off, why isn't he with the family in 1881.
There is a Joseph H Owens age 7 as a boarder in 1881 :-\ down as born Liverpool.
Head of the house is Harriet E A Lindsay 47 widow dressmaker
Mary L Lindsay 18 daughter school mistress
Maud C L Lindsay 9 boarder
but don't know if this is the right Joseph or why he is out boarding
I have just been thinking to myself why isn't he in the 1891 census when he would have only been a young age. It does seem rather odd if your findings are correct
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Martha has a second name Wilhelmina and there is a death in Mar 1884 Salford for a
Martha Wilhelmina Owens age 6 so that sadly could be why she isn't around in 1891 :(
Also a Samuel Owens death age 10 Sep 1884 Salford but would really need the death certificate to confirm he was "your" Samuel.
I am aware that Martha's middle initial is W but not sure what it stands for. If they both sadly died (and in the same year) this would explain why they aren't in 1891 census either.
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I was also thinking that if Sarah is a widower in 1891 census and with John in the 1901. Where was John in 1891 - maybe this might unearth an answer or two?
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Not sure that is your Joseph as found a 16 year old in 1891 that might be the 7 year old boarder.
Will investigate that. I wonder if yours was in Ireland with grandparents perhaps but long shot if the rest of his family were in England.
Meadth is a strange name to look for. What else could it be under do you think - Mead or Meath?
John could still have been in Ireland in 1891.
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Is there a death for either John or Sarah under Meadth?
How would the name sound spoken with an Irish accent to see if it's written differently?
If Hugh John is described as deceased on Robert's marriage then he should have died 1901-1921.
Incidentally in 1901 John H Meadth is a retired shipping clerk.
Who were the witnesses at the 1921 marriage?
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Is there a death for either John or Sarah under Meadth?
How would the name sound spoken with an Irish accent to see if it's written differently?
If Hugh John is described as deceased on Robert's marriage then he should have died 1901-1921.
Incidentally in 1901 John H Meadth is a retired shipping clerk.
Who were the witnesses at the 1921 marriage?
I haven't found any deaths for either Sarah or John. I mentioned in a previous thread that the locals attended Robert's funeral to see what surname was put on the gravestone. My apologies again but this was incorrect. I was told yesterday that 'the locals' attended Sarah's funeral for that reason but as to whether he was buried in England or Ireland is unknown. Her daughter Sarah (b.1880) died a spinster in 1958 and is buried in Southport.
As to its pronunciation I can only imagine it is a silent d and is meath.
I cannot recall who the witnesses were but I didn't recognise there names as being a relative. i will dig this out again in due course.
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Not sure that is your Joseph as found a 16 year old in 1891 that might be the 7 year old boarder.
Will investigate that. I wonder if yours was in Ireland with grandparents perhaps but long shot if the rest of his family were in England.
Meadth is a strange name to look for. What else could it be under do you think - Mead or Meath?
John could still have been in Ireland in 1891.
I was thinking that maybe John is still in Ireland and that would make him untraceable. I have his parents listed as James and Kath from an Irish BMD but that is all.
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is anyone able to shed any more light on the J Meadth that drowned in WW1? i Actually have his service medals from the war and also one from service in india from the 1890's. I can't seem to find how they fit into my family. My Great Grandfather Thomas J Meadth B1904 is in the 1911 census born in manchester. but his father is also Thomas J meadth born in Drogheda in ireland and its listed he is married to a Louisa meadth (ferguson)
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is anyone able to shed any more light on the J Meadth that drowned in WW1? i Actually have his service medals from the war and also one from service in india from the 1890's. I can't seem to find how they fit into my family. My Great Grandfather Thomas J Meadth B1904 is in the 1911 census born in manchester. but his father is also Thomas J meadth born in Drogheda in ireland and its listed he is married to a Louisa meadth (ferguson)
I believe that John had a brother called Thomas. I also believe that Thomas owned a pub in Manchester but I would have to go through my research notes again to recap my memory.
Could you please PM me and we can exchange emails etc.
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Hi, did you ever find out who Robert's father was? I have tried to figure it out for years, just found this post today. Thanks :-)