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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: Dartman on Monday 26 February 18 16:20 GMT (UK)
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I am doing research into my mother's ancestors, Robert and Rosannah (McMahon) Pennell, who, with eight children, emigrated from Belfast, Ireland to Philadelphia about 1816.
Robert was born near Bushmills, was a Free Mason, and operated an inn in Colerain, so the family tradition states. Their eldest son, William, was reputed to have been born somewhere in Scotland in 1800-1801 while visiting family. I have been unable to find any record of Robert's family in Ireland or Scotland, but hope that someone has.
Any information or direction would be greatly appreciated. And thanks for listening!
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I should add the known variants of the Pennell surname for those searching: Pennel, Pennal, Pennall, Pinnell, Penuel, Parnel
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Hi and welcome to rootschat ;D
The time frame you are asking about it will be difficult to find any records and you are looking for parish records as it is too early for civil records.
The PRs I have just looked at don't show back to the 1770s, the transcription of baptisms and marriages don't show anyone with the name Pennell or McMahon in Co Antrim...so you need to do a little more research finding the information in the USA and the records they generated there to see what other proof you can find.
Scotlandspeople is the website for Scottish records, which you purchase credits for again you are looking for parish records possibly baptisms of any children
I see many trees online about these people but none are sourced/documented via resources ( records) so it is likely they are a guess and copied from each other.
There are variants of all names as at that time people generally didn't read/write and names were written on records by those that could BUT spelling was not formalised, it was written as it sounded so could be written several ways by the same person or different people
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I searched the 1777 Rent Roll for Coleraine which appears in Andrew Kane’s book: “The Town Book of Coleraine” but there was no-one named Pennell (or variants) listed. No-one of the name in the 1831 census of Co. Londonderry.
The 1803 agricultural census has a Robert Pennal farming in the townland of Castlecat, parish of Billy (not far from Bushmills) but he was the only person of that surname in that part of Antrim, in that census.
No Pennells listed in Billy in the 1824 tithes. Looks as though they had all died out or left the area.
There are no church records for Bushmills for the period you are interested in, so it won’t be possible to research the family that way either.
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https://www.myheritage.com/names/rosannah_pennell
https://www.irelandxo.com/ireland/antrim/dunluce/message-board/pennell-family
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/30714356/robert-pennell
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Thank you all for your immediate, thoughtful and thorough responses! I am overwhelmed!
Your observations, insights, links and leads are extremely helpful. The lack of records for this family has been a primary problem in Ireland, Scotland and in the US. Our only source of information before 1820 is a "Pennell Book" authored by their grand niece in Trafford, Pennsylvania in 1925, and we have come to doubt some of that. And you are correct, we have been forced to share much that is not documented. Early US records are sketchy and inconsistent. Possible 'cousins' input has been largely contradictory to what has been passed down to us.
So you can see our cry for help wasn't unwarranted, and our appreciation is vastly understated!
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Thank you all for your immediate, thoughtful and thorough responses! I am overwhelmed!
Your observations, insights, links and leads are extremely helpful. The lack of records for this family has been a primary problem in Ireland, Scotland and in the US. Our only source of information before 1820 is a "Pennell Book" authored by their grand niece in Trafford, Pennsylvania in 1925, and we have come to doubt some of that. And you are correct, we have been forced to share much that is not documented. Early US records are sketchy and inconsistent. Possible 'cousins' input has been largely contradictory to what has been passed down to us.
So you can see our cry for help wasn't unwarranted, and our appreciation is vastly understated!
That gives what clues??
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Thank you all for your immediate, thoughtful and thorough responses! I am overwhelmed!
Your observations, insights, links and leads are extremely helpful. The lack of records for this family has been a primary problem in Ireland, Scotland and in the US. Our only source of information before 1820 is a "Pennell Book" authored by their grand niece in Trafford, Pennsylvania in 1925, and we have come to doubt some of that. And you are correct, we have been forced to share much that is not documented. Early US records are sketchy and inconsistent. Possible 'cousins' input has been largely contradictory to what has been passed down to us.
So you can see our cry for help wasn't unwarranted, and our appreciation is vastly understated!
That gives what clues??
Full Disclosure: dartman happens to be my uncle, and we are collaborating on the Pennell genealogy project.
That being said, hallmark, my apologies in behalf of our family if someone expressing his gratitude for the quick responses somehow offended you. Since you want clues, here are the best ones I can think of:
The Pennell family of Northern Ireland is mostly situated in the Belfast, Larne, and Enniskillen areas. The Pennell family in that area is distinct from other Pennells in Ireland, as they appear to have originated in the Strathclyde region of Scotland (Renfrewshire, Lanarkshire, Ayrshire and the Kintyre Peninsula). The other "Dublin Pennell" and "Cork Pennell" families have their ties to the Pennells of Devon, Nottingham, and Sussex as far as can be ascertained through the extensive family records of those branches.
The clues that we have gathered so far, including U.S. Census, Birth, Marriage, Death and Cemetery records (all of which are not infallible, it is true) indicate that Robert & Rosannah emigrated to the United States not later than 1818. Several of their sons and daughters were listed as being born in Ireland, or Belfast proper. They may or may not have traveled under assumed names to Philadephia Pennsylvania on the Ship George in 1817. This is a thorny question, as the ships manifest lists most of the given names, but not surnames. Moreover the baggage manifest confirms these names are associated with several trunks. That Robert and Rosannah arrived with several (3 or 4) trunks of linen on the Ship George is a family assertion that predates access to the original manifest. (I know too well that the names may be a coincidence, that the manifest may have entry errors, or that the surnames they took in America may be spurious...)
If naming traditions hold true among Gaelic society for the period, Robert Pennell Would have named his son William, after his own father. The names Robert, James, John, Mary, William, Margaret, and Thomas are recurring in the family, just as they are in both the Pennell families of Western Scotland and Northern Ireland. We know of several William Pennells living in Raloo, the most documented one having been born in 1818 and who served as a executor of several wills before his death in 1892. Whether he would be Robert and Rosannah's nephew is of course pure speculation at this point.
Additionally, we know that some of the family held to Methodism, and some to Scots Presbyterianism and that Robert was supposedly in the Linen trade. Furthermore, some Pennells of Scotland were weavers and sailmakers by trade, but there has been no connection other than that of proximity and general time period.
We know that other Pennell families immigrated to Charleston, Anderson and Abbeville Counties in South Carolina from Antrim in the first quarter of the 19th Century, but there is no solid connection to our Pennell branch of NW PA/NE OH (any old letters and diaries on our end have been lost to the ravages of time). Some of these Pennell may have traveled back to Ireland in the 1830s-40s for reasons of family business.
Whether the Larne Pennell family is the major branch is one thing we are trying to establish, as I especially suspect that the 1803 Ag. Census record indicates a branching out away from the main family, for business or marital reasons. Another question is if the Pennells of Northern Ireland are Scots who arrived in Ulster in the mid to late 18th century.
Again, I apologize for his exuberant thanks, but we had given up hope that there would be any forum that could corroborate or augment our research; the ancestry boards and genweb are well nigh ghost towns for us these days.
Sincerely,
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No offence taken!
There are "trees" out there as you know!
Unsourced, as you say!
I was going to query if they "sailed from Belfast" BUT you have the facts of Births in Belfast.
I've seen some of mine being from Londonderry on trees....
..but they sailed from there only!
The fact of several William Pennells living in Raloo helps, as discovering one may not be the correct one!
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Thank you, Hallmark, for your kind interest. I assume the Pennell Book reference inspires your question.
The 'Pennell Book' is a hand-written loose leaf binder containing 60 sheets, mostly double-sided, of family group sheet equivalents, with bio-like notes and quotes in between. We feel so very lucky to have it, but we realize that the early stories, especially, were likely repeated many times before being written down.
A transcription of the main text is as follows: "Robert and Rosanna come to America"
When Robert and Rosanna Pennell came from Ireland, they brought eight children. Another man came along, whose name it is believed was Turnbull, but he went back to Ireland to take the 32nd degree in the Free Mason Lodge.
Robert Pennell was a Free Mason and had an apron that he prized very much. The lodge room was over his inn in Ireland at Coleraine, County Antrim, 1 mile from the seashore. They sold the inn to his father when he came to America. They could not own property there at that time - they were afraid of the Catholics. They brought enough linens to last them 1 year.
Came over on the ship 'George' in 1817. Do not know where they landed, but bought a team of horses in Philadelphia and came to Pittsburgh to McCahon's. [A different source in the Pennell Book says that McCahon was Rosanna's brother who owned the first dry goods store in Pittsburgh. The McCahon/McMahon issue wasn't explained.] Then they bought a farm at Shenango, one hundred acres at $1.25 per acre. Did not farm long and probably went from there to Austintown, Ohio.
Robert was a weaver by trade. It has been found that Rosanna was a Methodist. The most of this record I obtained from Mrs Olive Bellard Cortelyou Webb, who is a grand-daughter of Robert and Rosanna, and a daughter of Mary Pennell [Bellard]. Some say that Robert and Rosanna came from Ireland in 1820, that they were born at Bush Mills (Near Coleraine). Some claimed that Rosanna Pennell was Scotch. Do not know if any of the brothers or sisters came to America then, or any other time.
2011 transcription notes: Excerpts from 'The Pennell Book', a hand written manuscript of family history that was begun April 22, 1925 in Trafford, Westmoreland Co, PA by an unknown person. Changes in penmanship suggest that a 2nd and a 3rd person also contributed to the data collection, interviews and anecdotes through the 1940's and 1950's. The 3rd was Esther Pennell Lincoln, great-great-granddaughter of Robert and Rosanna. The book is now in care of Mary Pennell Artman, sister of Esther. Bracketed and italicized information are editor's inserts and remarks.
///Additional notes that do not convert .doc to .txt well are attached as an image. It contains more about the author and our immigration theories. (We assume the 'a years worth of linen' was Robert's grubstake.) ///
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No offence taken!
There are "trees" out there as you know!
Unsourced, as you say!
I was going to query if they "sailed from Belfast" BUT you have the facts of Births in Belfast.
I've seen some of mine being from Londonderry on trees....
..but they sailed from there only!
The fact of several William Pennells living in Raloo helps, as discovering one may not be the correct one!
Thank you for the quick reply, hallmark, and yes, I know all too well about the unsubstantiated trees that circulate. ;) In fact, I have the dubious honor among our family genealogists of being grouchily suspicious of anything that is not a primary source document or at least a second generation recollection. Children may be a gold mine for clues, but even their reminisces about parents can be faulty. Even with primary sources, the motives or other circumstances have to be left to speculation, alas. Sometimes I wonder if I do not have more questions than clues at this point. I am compiling a list of questions, in fact, because sometimes little bits of information are hidden in the questions themselves and it takes other eyes to see them. (For example, "If they were Larne Pennells, how or why did they fall out of touch with the larger family?" and "Why take the surname Shaw for the trip across on the George [if that really is them...] and then go back to their surname if they were afraid of discovery?")
By the way, I was trained as an Historian, and Genealogy is like tap-dancing in a minefield blindfolded while leading an elephant in comparison!
P.S. A clue that I had forgotten to include: There was a Margaret Dickey Pennell, born in 1816 or 1817 to Robert Pennell, according to Ulster baptism records. There is also a Margaret Dickey Pennell of South Carolina, born 1772 or thereabouts who emigrated from Antrim, but other than the standout name, I cannot seem to connect them, or them to us.
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I know the Swans married Dickies, looks like Pennells did too! But as you say, ...are they your Pennells.
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i couldnt resist checking a few sources, all hopefully known to you
1660s hearth money rolls see http://www.billmacafee.com Bill has many databases, his website a goldmine
Antrim Belfast Lower Glynn Craiganboy Creagconboy John Penall Pennell
Glynn parish southern portion excluding Larne lies between Island Magee and Raloo
those Pennell appear to last
Belfast directory 1808 has no Pennells http://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/1808.htm
1830 as per entries 1823-1837 Tithes Applotment Books based upon the index work of the Irish Genealogy Hub. The relevant original books are in the Public Record Office of Northern Ireland (PRONI) Belfast
Pennel, Wm.-Townland: Ballyrieard Beg Year: 1830-Raloo-Antrim sw of Larne
Pennel, Wm.-Townland: Ballyrieard Beg Year: 1830-Ramoan-Antrim north coast left by 1861
Pennel, Wm.-Townland: Ballyrieard More Year: 1830-Raloo-Antrim sw of Larne
Pennel, Wm.-Townland: Ballyrieard More Year: 1830-Ramoan-Antrim north coast left by 1861
Ramoan parish is separated by a parish from Billy parish
1861 (for Raloo) Griffiths Valuation gives from quick index http://www.failteromhat.com/post1845.php
Pennell William Ballyrickard More Raloo Antrim gone by 1900
Pennell William Ballyrickard, Beg Raloo Antrim gone by 1900
Pennell Agnes Ballyrickard More Raloo Antrim gone by 1900
Pennell Thomas Dock Townparks Henry Place Shankill Antrim
Pennell Thomas Dock Townparks Henry Place Shankill Antrim
Pennell Edward Ballyprior Beg Island Magee Antrim gone by 1900
http://www.dippam.ac.uk/ied/records/50911
Diary of James Black, November 1837 - October 1844; PRONI D1725/18; CMSIED 9310166
has a daughter of a Robert Pennell dying in South Carolina
best of irish luck onwards
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Thank you, BallyaltikilliganG, for your interest.
Your leads and links give me many new paths to explore! I thought I was familiar with most Irish sites but you've shown me 2 new ones! Thanks again.
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I am unsure if this is the correct spot to post this, but for the kind folks who have given us some ideas and new places to search:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/185720?availability=Family%20History%20Library (https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/185720?availability=Family%20History%20Library).
You folks may already have access to this, and if so, my apologies for giving redundant information. These deed records have helped me pin down at least 3 Pennells from Larne in the 1810s period and may provide secondary or tertiary support for others. (These can be a bit tricky to use, and the handwriting a nightmare. Moreover, they are not searchable through the familysearch website; I found them my chance during a google search.) If my turnabout has been fair play, so much the better (I do hope so!).
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We only have same access as you.
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itatane, that resource is a treasure.can you tell us more about it
I assume to view the microfilm one needs to go to a branch of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (known as the LDS Church or, informally, the Mormon Church) to view the microfilms. I noticed copies exist at New York, New York, Missouri, Utah
Its surprising that a copy wasn’t given to the institute holding the originals at the time of copying ie Registry of Deeds (Ireland), so I wondered are copies shared with PRONI Belfast ?
Am I right in thinking on 35mm film , this might mean the 2686 microfilm reels could hold up to 2500 images ie over 6 million records?
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itatane, that resource is a treasure.can you tell us more about it
I assume to view the microfilm one needs to go to a branch of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (known as the LDS Church or, informally, the Mormon Church) to view the microfilms. I noticed copies exist at New York, New York, Missouri, Utah
Its surprising that a copy wasn’t given to the institute holding the originals at the time of copying ie Registry of Deeds (Ireland), so I wondered are copies shared with PRONI Belfast ?
Am I right in thinking on 35mm film , this might mean the 2686 microfilm reels could hold up to 2500 images ie over 6 million records?
The Films can be viewed via the Link posted.
The institute holding the originals at the time of copying has the originals available to the Public...they also have Transcripts of Wills from early 1700's recording "Who got What from a the Will of Whoever."
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The Registry of Deeds is located in Henrietta Street, Dublin, Ireland and is a repository of records of wills, land transactions in Ireland and other deeds from 1709. While the original purpose of the Registry of Deeds was to enforce rules limiting the land transactions of Catholics, even before the removal of these rules in 1782 many Catholics and representatives of Catholic families appear in the memorials. Many memorials involved people of modest means who were merchants and traders who registered deeds to provide some form of security of tenure. Moreover, Catholic occupiers are sometimes mentioned.
The Registry of Deeds is a rich source of genealogical information. Marriage and other settlements are particularly informative about family relationships.
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thank you hallmark for expanding my knowledge and understanding, however i couldnt open that link beyond a list of grantors eg h What do you next please to see the entries or open index of H's?
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Click on Camera....
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hallmark further many thanks, and it is a treasure itatane.
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My apologies for not explaining how to view the microfilms, even after I said they were tricky to use (that is just me being an idjit).
Accessing: For access to them, I believe a familysearch account is required but not membership within the Mormon church (which I am not part of). As hallmark says, on the web page with the indexes, click the small camera icon to the right of the index or deed range. The list is rather long, and is organized by name indexes, then land indexes with the deeds appearing all the way down at the bottom of the page.
Navigating/Researching: Within each index, the volume appears to the right of the name then the page or record number (early volumes have both a page and record number, later volumes are ordered by case numbers without page numbers). On certain indexes, the names are all together with the year appearing to the right; other indexes are year by year. To my best knowledge they are all alphabetical.
Cautions/Tricky Areas: The first tricky part is that each microfilm may contain a couple indexes (like letters J through S) and it is sometimes necessary to click on the multi page view and zoom out a bit to see where the microfilm has title slides appearing within. (This also touches the deed book microfilms.) The second tricky part is that it is probably best to write down a complete entry to look up (including date), as some microfilms have the records organized by case number with the pages out of order numerically. It can be a little time consuming in the early volumes to track down each name, as townlands are not listed until the 1830s if I recall correctly.
Again, my thanks to hallmark, for filling in BallyaltikilliganG on this.