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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: bevbee on Wednesday 28 February 18 14:34 GMT (UK)
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I know it's a long shot, but I was wondering whether anyone would recognise this location please?
The photo is of my Great Uncle Harold who was a Stonemason and was known for dressing very smartly.
Harold was born about 1913 and died in 1980, living all his life in Carmarthenshire.
My father says the photo is unlikely to have been taken abroad.
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Coming in from the "Leftfield" so to speak, I wonder, was he a freemason, I could be a million miles out ;D I only ask because that was my first thought when looking at the design of the floor.
I'm probably just uttering for the sake of it ::)
Frank.
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Coming in from the "Leftfield" so to speak, I wonder, was he a freemason
No, he wasn't - that was my first question when I saw the photo as well. ;D
I also asked whether it could be a Gentleman's Club because of the Lloyd Loom chairs and the man at the back, but dad says Harold wouldn't have joined any clubs like that. He was just a worker in a rural community.
B.
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The painting/mosaic on the wall is a copy of Alexander the Great at the Battle of Issus, originally in Pompeii.
Richard
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The painting/mosaic on the wall is a copy of Alexander the Great at the Battle of Issus, originally in Pompeii.
Thank you Richard, I wondered. ;)
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Looking at the motif on the wall, in conjunction with the floor, I also tend to swing to the idea of a Masonic setting. A "brother" may know which one.
Malky
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You could contact the Provincial Grand Lodge of South Wales and send them the Photograph, if it is a Masonic Lodge I'm sure they would help you with the location.
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His footwear looks to me like slippers (quite good ones) rather than outdoor shoes. Does that get us anywhere?
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Is that a handkerchief sticking out of his upper pocket? I can't make it out & it doesn't look like a handkerchief to me.
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They do look like slippers arthurk. Did he ever have TB as a young man as he could be in a Sanatorium.The Adelina Patti Sanatorium was based in Craig y Nos Castle in the upper Swansea valley in the 1920/30/40's. The room looks rather grand with the black & white checkerboard floor.
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Interesting - yes, he did have TB at some point - my parents can't remember whether he was in a sanatorium but it would follow - probably more likely he would have been closer to home - Tumble sanatorium maybe?
I 'll have to check the other photos we have of him to see whether he is wearing the same footwear at other times - not sure now whether they are shoes or slippers.....
B.
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Slippers with a very smart suit and tie? Surely not. To me they look to be rather elegant slip-on leather shoes.
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Slippers with a very smart suit and tie? Surely not. To me they look to be rather elegant slip-on leather shoes.
I thought they were "Slip on" shoes to be honest.
Frank.
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The back wall (including the Alexander mosaic and the coat of arms) is, I think, tiled. Might be worth checking to see where they might have been manufactured. The setting does look health or bathing related. Possibly a sanitorium or perhaps a Turkish Bath?
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The footwear are "loafer shoes".
Malky
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We can rule out his stay in a Sanatorium because I've just found out he was in Garngoch Hospital, Gorseinon, Swansea and that photo was not taken there.
B.
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The back wall (including the Alexander mosaic and the coat of arms) is, I think, tiled. Might be worth checking to see where they might have been manufactured. The setting does look health or bathing related. Possibly a sanitorium or perhaps a Turkish Bath?
Is this the same picture
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/channel-island-auctions-ltd/catalogue-id-srcha10005/lot-090b226e-ca1d-4188-97d9-a4ae00f6f910
Although this is mosaic and the one we have looks like tiles.
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It looks like the same picture heywood, such a pity it doesn't state where it has come from.
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Yes, certainly the same picture.
Any ideas on the other picture anyone? The "eagle" or similar?
B.
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It may be a copy of the same picture, but it is not the one in the original photograph. This one is only circa 8 inches x 14 inches in old money, 19.5 cm x 35.5 cm.
Malky
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I think the Coat of Arms is a Phoenix rather than an Eagle, but I could be wrong. It's rather amateurish if you look at the stick characters wearing crowns at the bottom.
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Have tried altering the brightness/ contrast on the picture of the crest - are there two words written above the bird? Cant quite make them out but I think the first word ends with 'ed' and the second possibly starts' M.z.......'
What does anyone else think?
Trish
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The first word looks like Skit I can't make out the second one at all.
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Could the first word be SACRED ?
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I was wondering if it was three words, rather than two. If so, could the middle one be INDE or INTER (both Latin)?
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I am fairly sure - though ready to be corrected - that the "picture" with the "eagle" is the Coat of Arms of Spain - and in that case it would indeed be an eagle. The two pillars look like the Pillars of Hercules.
Liz
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The eagle insignia is very similar to that on the Spanish flag introduced by Franco in 1938 - but it's not quite the same - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Spain#/media/File:Flag_of_Spain_(1938_-_1945).svg
I don't see the coronet, or the motto, and heraldic designs on the shield seem different.
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I think it might be a very poor version of the Spanish arms ... the 2nd and 3rd quarters are clearly impaled (i.e. in half down the middle) and look very like those of Aragon and Navarro - the latter has distinctive chains in a pattern which is reproduced here. But, yes, I agree, there are elements that are missing.
Going back to the Masonic theme and bearing in mind that Freemasons were persecuted in Spain at that time I wonder if it was an "ex-patriot" Lodge in the UK - this would fit with the comment about it being unlikely to be somewhere abroad.
Liz
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Looking at the crest again - although 'crudely' drawn, the stick figures look to represent a King and Queen - they both wear crowns befitting a King and Queen
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I don't think that there are words only at the top - to me it looks like the whole border is made up of words...
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Looking at the crest again - although 'crudely' drawn, the stick figures look to represent a King and Queen - they both wear crowns befitting a King and Queen
The pillars of Hercules have crown like toppings :-\
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Spain
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Hello
I looked at the photo this morning and thought Freemasons; a Club, or a Society. Just because you are not a Member, a family Member or Colleague could invite you.
It is his Leather Slippers, as though he is either a regular, or staying for a short while? The heels are too low to be for outdoor use in the street. They look like the old Leather soled, Leather upper slippers, the type once made by Church's.
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By this time Stonemasons were not always Freemasons, but I should imagine something similar had took its place, like Regional Trade Unions, Societies, Associations and Guilds, for Stonemasons and I see the Modern Records Centre at the University of Warwick (nearer Coventry than Warwick), holds some of these records and Record Offices.
https://www.genguide.co.uk/source/stonemason-records-occupations/126/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operative_Society_of_Masons,_Quarrymen_and_Allied_Trades_of_England_and_Wales
Wall Symbol
But it might be nothing to do with a Stonemason occupation.
The wall symbol has a Shield covering the bird, but no Supporters either side of the Shield. The two underneath the Shield, possibly representing a pair of Black Crowned Skeletons acting like two columns holding the Shield up.
Someone sitting in, so you can rule out a studio pose.
Mark
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This one has me intrigued! He may not have been a Mason, but what about some other fraternal organisation. My great-grandfather was in the RAOB - Royal Antedeluvian Order of Buffaloes - which was a working-class men's version of the Masons. AKA the Rat-A***d Old Buggers according to my grandad. I don't think this looks anything like the RAOB, but perhaps someone out there knows of other similar organisations that it could be?
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Could you possibly do a higher res scan of the coat of arms?
Working out the writing could be our best clue.
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I can tell you there is nothing Masonic or Knights Templar about the picture. Look at this comparison to see that the Coat of Arms is of the Catholic Monarchs since 1492
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Spain
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It has a feel of a Scene from a film..
xin
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Somewhere in Portugal?
Skoosh.
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I checked as much as I could about Portugal but the closest image of the Coat of Arms is of the Catholic Monarchs of Spain after 1492. So possibly a Sanatorium in Spain used by the British ?
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Or a room/club-room in Portugal/Spain with various arms used for decoration. Spain & Portugal were united at one time anyhow & Alexander the Great wasn't Portugese/Spanish either!
One of the Port companies HQ or a British Sherry company HQ?
Portugal is famous for its azulejos (tiles).
Skoosh.
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I tried searching for TB Sanatoriums in Spain & Portugal but struck out. I use Epic, Yahoo and Duckduckgo but nothing really searches the internet like they used to. In the bad old days you could set-up Advanced Search criteria and it only found what you were looking for and discarded the spurious comparisons ... nowadays ... advertisements on everything .. Even the Wayback Machine is becoming difficult to trawl ... stuff I know was definitely on the web in 1990s from Strathclyde Uni has disappeared
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Thanks everyone - I'll have to do a bit more research on the Spain/Portugal suggestions. :)
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I tried searching for TB Sanatoriums in Spain & Portugal but struck out. I use Epic, Yahoo and Duckduckgo but nothing really searches the internet like they used to. In the bad old days you could set-up Advanced Search criteria and it only found what you were looking for and discarded the spurious comparisons ... nowadays ... advertisements on everything .. Even the Wayback Machine is becoming difficult to trawl ... stuff I know was definitely on the web in 1990s from Strathclyde Uni has disappeared
I need your brain :) it sounds like one I used to have :) :) My ancient website I once found on Wayback but now Nope :(
Xinia
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I tried searching for TB Sanatoriums in Spain & Portugal but struck out.
See reply #15 re hospital.
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We can rule out his stay in a Sanatorium because I've just found out he was in Garngoch Hospital, Gorseinon, Swansea and that photo was not taken there.
B.
Thanx, I knew of this post about Garngoch but he could have been in there for another purpose, or TB, but the fact that he is sitting in a chair in a room with the Spanish Monarchs Coat of Arms suggest strongly that he was somewhere in the Iberian Peninsula, possibly for TB treatment.
It is not likely to be in Wales or the UK unless it is premises belonging to a Religious House where medical treatment is offered. The search needs to be widened ... perhaps to the Spanish Islands.
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It looks like the location of the photograph is Talygarn Convalescent and Rehabilitation Home, Pontyclun, Glamorgan.
Taken in the ‘winter garden lounge’, the convalescent home was for injured miners.
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01qtq/
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01qtr/
Trish
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Now I am beginning to get suspicious... ;)
How on earth do you do it, Trish?!
And what a lovely winter garden.
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Karen, when I saw the photograph on the link I attached it rang several bells!
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Trish, you've done it again!!!! I can't believe it, you are truly amazing.
You're on a roll now, keep at it ;D
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Nice work Trish 8)
Carol
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Amazing find a Trish!!!! ;D
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Thanks all :-*
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Once again, most impressive :)
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Trish, thank you so much! I don't know how you did this research, but I'm very grateful to you for solving the mystery.
I didn't even know Uncle Harold had ever been a miner, but my mother just confirmed it.
Thank you, once again!
:D ;)
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You’re very welcome bevbee ;)
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Wow. Just wow.
Fantastic effort, Trish :D
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Erm...Trish, could you use your superpowers and let me know which 6 numbers I should choose for the German national lottery next Saturday? :D
We can split the winnings... :P