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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: Rebeccajames35 on Wednesday 28 February 18 16:32 GMT (UK)
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I am just wondering how to work out whether someone is romany or not !! I have lots of people in my family tree and it's obvious that they are romany because of their occupation, forenames/surnames , family connections and where they lived but i have a family whose surname is street . My great great grandad was henry parker and he married mary street . Marys dad was soloman street and i can find them on the cencus living at one point on the common but as labourers. So how do i work out if they were romany or not ? Any advice would be much appreciated :)
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Did the family stay in one place?
Where did they have their kids?
(names. DATES, PLACES) ?
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Hi Paulinej
Solomon street b 1845 ashtead married lydia caroline waterer (b 1850 epsom) they married oct 1868 sutton and as far as i can find they had 2 kids william and mary who was born in 1869 epsom. I think soloman died in 1874 . Solomans father was also called soloman street and his mother elizabeth stone both born around 1812 in surrey .
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So did soloman sreet b 1845 have siblings all born in the same village, or were they born in multiple locations?
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His siblings were all born in ashtead
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Then it seems unlikely that they were a traveller family.
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So i suppose they were just a family living on epsom common then and that's probably where they met the parker family . Thanks for your thoughts paulinej
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Hi I believe they lived Common Lane Epsom not Epsom Common, they were also at that address 1841/51 census as Ag Labs.
Keyboard86
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The 1841 census is headed Ashstead Parish - Common Lane is the 'road'
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Hi keyboard86
On the 1871 census they are living epsom and it's down as 'common' i know earlier they were on common lane and at some point woodfield i think !!
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Rosie they were living on the road ?! Sorry is that what it means ?!
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Rosie they were living on the road ?! Sorry is that what it means ?!
No, the road was named Common Lane.
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:) In 1871 Solomon b 1845 was living "Common" Epsom along with numerous others of classic village trades, his mother and father were still at Common Lane Ashstead.
Keyboard86
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So not on the common ?!
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If you look at the other census pages in 1871 that cover the address of 'Common' you will see all sorts of trades some of which you would not relate to travellers.
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Oh ok will do , thanks :)
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Rebecca; Curious one, this.
While the above discussion seems to have pretty well confirmed this particular Street family were static, I looked the name up, simply because I knew a Streeter and I wondered.
Book of Bob (Click the house beneath my avatar) lists STREET as being a name given by Gypsys in ESS, HAM, LDN and SRY. Nice, expectable little cluster then. One can clearly see how they spread across the borders.
But, here's the confusing thing: Only in 1881. That would be the census, obviously. But, where did they come from? Where did they go? Were there no Gypsy Street people recorded in 1871 or 1891? ???
I have no answers. Curious though. Isn't it?
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Hi Steve G ,
I have seen on one website people trying to find out about their street family in essex and they are romany but my streets can be found for 3 generations and in ashtead then epsom . My 2 x great grandad was henry parker who married mary street (daughter of solomon street and lydia waterer) and i know his family were romany so i wrongly thought the streets were romany as well but sadly not !!!
Rebecca :)
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I'd be casually curious to see how those hunting their own, Essex, Streets got on. Could they expand on the 1881 point?
I just find that weird. I mean; One name being recorded once, in one place? Suggests someone simply telling the enumerator porkies. Perfectly understandable.
But, a whole cluster of a name. Neighboring counties wide. Popping up, then vanishing? That's just Twilight Zone material!! :o
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I have quite a large 'Street' tree.
All my Street familes were Romany. They came from the Loughton/Epping area and settled in Canning Town.
My Street family intermarried with my Lee family a lot.
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Wow !! I don't suppose you have any soloman streets in there ?!!
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Wow !! I don't suppose you have any soloman streets in there ?!!
If your family were the Street's in Epsom area, surely your Solomon dies June qtr 1874 Epsom 2a 9 aged 30?
Keyboard86
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Yes !! He was my 3 x great grandad and hos daughter married my 2 x great grandad henry parker who was definitely from the romany parker and bowers families.
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Hi, no sorry I don't have any Soloman Street's.
All my Streets were in Essex - Loughton/Epping Forest and Canning Town. Do you have any Street's from this area?
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OK was the daughter of Solomon a Mary who married in 1890 Epsom to Henry Parker?
Keyboard86
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Yes that's her !!!
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:) Well looking at the 1891/1901 Henry b Woking, in Epsom, he was either a General Labourer or in 1901 a Platelayer, so Romany link may be way back?
Keyboard86
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It was henrys parents and grandparents
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Henrys parents were henry parker and violetta maiden name bowers and she was married before henry senior. Her parents were walker bowers and maria james
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Hi, no sorry I don't have any Soloman Street's.
All my Streets were in Essex - Loughton/Epping Forest and Canning Town. Do you have any Street's from this area?
Hi a well known family of Streets in Enfield area who were Chimney Sweeps, many years ago?!
Keyboard86
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Have you found more streets then ?!
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Have you found more streets then ?!
I know about the Street's in Enfield area, but would suggest that they came from locally possibly Epping/Essex area.
OK so Henry 23 and Violetta 26 were lodgers with Walker 51 occ Basket Maker/Maria 48 in Horsham Village Cottage, Walton on Thames
Census ref RG10/802/103/33
But even though the occupation could well be Romany, no sign of a Caravan or Tent?!
Keyboard86
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We have the parkers back to the late 1700s and the bowers about the same - are you on ancestry?
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In 1881 henry and violetta aren in epsom in a " gypsy caravan " with their children
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In 1881 henry and violetta aren in epsom in a " gypsy caravan " with their children
That's more like it , when did Walker Bowers marry Maria James, the only one I could locate was one possible in 1894 Croydon?
Keyboard86
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I think that's it , there's some about them on gypsy genealogy. Maria james was my 4th great grandmother on my nans side and her cousin john james is my 3rd great grandad on my grandads side !!
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I think that's it , there's some about them on gypsy genealogy. Maria james was my 4th great grandmother on my nans side and her cousin john james is my 3rd great grandad on my grandads side !!
OK two things, the 1881 states Caravan Pound Lane his occupation Ag Lab no others with Caravans around him, if that 1894 marriage is correct one then how can Violetta be their daughter?
Keyboard86
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OK ignore the 1881 I supplied for Henry, in 1871 census they were with the Bowers family in Horsham Village, this is I believe Violetta in 1861 census:-
William Bowers 39 occ Licenced Hawker
Myra 39
Rhoda 17 mmn James
Vitella 16 registered June qtr 1845 as Violette Bowers Guildford v04 page 164 mmn James
Robert 13
John 11
William 9
Eliza 6
Selby 4
Henry 2
Walter 3 months
Residing Gravel Pits, Fairmile, Cobham, Surrey
Census ref RG09/420/126/31
Keyboard86
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Lol i started reading this and my brain stopped working at exactly the same time !!! Yes i have that same census record
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I have quite a lot on the parkers now and quite a bit on the bowers it was just the street family that were puzzling me really !! But with the bowers my 6 x great grandad says he was born in south carolina and people on ancestry have him and brothers being born there but i don't feel certain about that but i suppose anything before 1800 is a bit more tricky !!
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:) OK so to progress further back you really need the birth certificate of Violette Bowers June qtr 1845 Guildford?
Keyboard86
Look you have and possibly agree a marriage of a Walker Bowers to a possible Maria James in 1894 the b of the couple in 1861 is more inportant, they more than possibly were dead by 1894?
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Walker died in 1903 - i think they probably married just for the pension after one of them died . I know some of my family had their own romany wedding ceremony but didn't officially marry until long after they had children and it was something to do with getting some sort of pension ?!
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:) Are you saying the 1861 family William/Myra nee James married in 1894?
Keyboard86
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No not for sure but i need to have a look at the family tree to double check . Are you on ancestry?
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No not for sure but i need to have a look at the family tree to double check . Are you on ancestry?
I have Ancestry, but if that is Violetta in 1861 no way did the supposed parents marry in 1894, funnily it is the children after Rhoda and Violette that are a problem?
Who did Violetta marry before Henry?
Keyboard86
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She married william lambert cambell in june 1863
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Sorry i forgot to say they married in epsom surrey
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:) So you are saying a Violetta Bowers James marries a William Lambert Campbell in 1863 Epsom, then William dies and she marries Henry Parker as Violetta Lambert in Dec qtr 1870 Epsom?
Have you either of these marriage records?
Keyboard86
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I'm not sure if william dies but yes i have both of the marriages
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OK thank you for that, as I cannot locate the maiden name of the children after Rhoda/Violette/Violetta who had mmn James, could you give details of both marriages including witnesses please?
Keyboard86
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Lambert / bowers marriage
Epsom 1863 june 29
William lambert cambell father william lambert ( both hawkers)
Violetta bowers father walker bowers (hawker)
Witnesses m. Parker and i can't read the other one !!!
Parker / lambert marriage
Claygate 1870 October 31
Henry parker father mark parker both hawkers
Violetta lambert father walker bowers hawker
Witnesses were john and ellen parker .
I have a few of walker and maria others kids baptism as well
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:) Excellent, I now feel the 1894 marriage was correct for Walker, Maria died 1900 Croydon aged 75.
It is the registration of the boys that I find difficult?
Keyboard86
Edit, so re the Street family, how far have you got back or forward.
Keyboard86
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So henry parker married mary street her father soloman street was born about 1812 . I am sure of her father and mother and her grandad who was also a soloman street but even though i have lots of census info and marriage certs i feel like i can't seem to get a feeling for who they were ?! With romany ancestors you can google and find out loads about families and their lifestyles but with your average family of agricultural labourers it's harder to know much at all about them