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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lancashire => England => Lancashire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: ALAMO2008 on Thursday 01 March 18 15:58 GMT (UK)
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I am trying to research the early life of a John Hines apparently born Liverpool 1873 of Irish Parentage, he died in Australia in 1958
Yet the only John Hines I can Find is a John Hines born 15th July 1870
(Sept Quarter 1870 Vol 8b page 24 Liverpool Mother's Maiden Name shown as Cain )
Baptism at St. Albans Liverpool 24th July 1870 Mother shown as Rachael Kane.
Marriage Search shows a John Hines Snr marrying a Rachael Cain at St. John's on 01/04/1868
The 1871 Census for Liverpool St Martins Dist. 55 shows at 4 Beacon Terrace John Hines aged 24 Born Liverpool, Wife Rachael aged 21 born Liverpool Son John aged 1 born Liverpool
Father Robert Hines Widower aged 50 born Ireland.
This all seems to fit,.
However, the next Census 10 years later 1881 I think I have the wrong Hines Family. Everton/Kirkdale Dist.32 for 41 Leyden Street has a John Hines Snr aged 44 born Liverpool Wife Rachael also aged 44 born Liverpool two Daughters Mary aged 8 and Margaret aged 3 BUT - No SON John who should be aged 11
Can't find them on 1891 Census anywhere
But 1901 Census for St.Aidans/Kirkdale Dist. 35 for36 Luton Street has a John Hines aged 50 born Liverpool but a Wife Rachael aged 52 born Perth, Scotland and a Son John aged only 15 and a married Daughter Isabella aged 20
Am I getting lost after the first 1871 Census ? Was John born 1873 under another Mother's Maiden Name. Could he be under HYNES perhaps ? Anyone any suggestions to help clarify please ?
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Hi,
Who did John Hines marry? If you have his marriage cert what is the name & occupation of his father?
Where have you got the information that John Hines was born c.1873, Liverpool?
JJ
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According to this report in the papers following his death in 1958 , John "Barney" Hines was a WW1 Veteran , known as the Souvenir King :
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/91256626?searchTerm=%22john%20barney%20hines%22&searchLimits=
A search for John Hines in the Service Files brings up 9 results for John HINes , only one of whom was born in Liverpool in 1873, This record gives his mother's name as Dora,have you already explored that avenue ?
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=5451627
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Hi JJen
John Barney Hines the WW1 Veteran never married.
Christine53 - I missed that about his mother being Dora on his War Record
I was going to trace his Sister Mrs Mary Thompson nee Hines of 23 Eldon Place, Liverpool - Marrying and work backwards through her life.
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the one with mother called Dora was 28 in 1915, so would not be born in 1873
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the one with mother called Dora was 28 in 1915, so would not be born in 1873
I should have said the only one born in Liverpool. The date is not stated in the results.
However , a few pages in there is another form , dated 1916 , where he says he's 36 yrs and 8 months, which would make his birth date 1880.
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the one with mother called Dora was 28 in 1915, so would not be born in 1873
Apparently he lied about his age when he joined the AIF in 1915 -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hines_(Australian_soldier)
JJ
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What can you tell us about 'your' John Hines in Australia :-\
Did he marry in Australia
Any idea when he arrived there
Did he travel there alone
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I'm confused, are we looking for a John Hines who had descendants or John Barney Hines who did not marry and who lied about his age and was indeed born in Liverpool in 1873
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Hi
I think this is probably coincidence and I have it all wrong, but there is an Heims family living in Eldon Street Liverpool in 1871 Jacob and Dora F Heims from Germany.
They are at a different address in 1881 but children include Dora b1872(registered as Hime mmn Funhoff), Mary 1877 and John 1879.
I think Dora 1872 married Charles James Quinlan, in 1939 she appears to be living at 22,Eldon Road, Liverpool.
I wonder if Hines could be a derivation of Heims.
Cathy
Added just read your post again, not likely to be them at all, given Irish connection..sorry :-[
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I had a go at this one last year here is the thread:-
https://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=15927
Blue
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I'm confused, are we looking for a John Hines who had descendants or John Barney Hines who did not marry and who lied about his age and was indeed born in Liverpool in 1873
I am confused too LizzieL. Hopefully ALAMO2008 will clarify it for us ;D
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I'm confused, are we looking for a John Hines who had descendants or John Barney Hines who did not marry and who lied about his age and was indeed born in Liverpool in 1873
I am confused too LizzieL. Hopefully ALAMO2008 will clarify it for us ;D
He had no descendants this is research into a famous person not someone's own family history research. As you can see from my thread on Liverpool & SW Lancs FHS forum it's a tricky one and is certainly a brickwall.
Blue
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Hi
I think this is probably coincidence and I have it all wrong, but there is an Heims family living in Eldon Street Liverpool in 1871 Jacob and Dora F Heims from Germany.
They are at a different address in 1881 but children include Dora b1872(registered as Hime mmn Funhoff), Mary 1877 and John 1879.
I think Dora 1872 married Charles James Quinlan, in 1939 she appears to be living at 22,Eldon Road, Liverpool.
I wonder if Hines could be a derivation of Heims.
Cathy
Added just read your post again, not likely to be them at all, given Irish connection..sorry :-[
Mary Heim married David Thompson 1893, Liverpool - Lancashire BMD
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I am trying to research the early life of a John Hines apparently born Liverpool 1873 of Irish Parentage, he died in Australia in 1958
OP doesn't say that the John Hines he/she is researching is an ancestor.
The information given is remarkably similar to that quoted in the Wikipedia article and others
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hines_(Australian_soldier)
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Re the Heims family :-\
There is a John Heim with birthdate 12th October 1876 signed up 1896 to Navy. He has some distinguishing marks on his record though which are not on that Australian one. He was discharged as ‘objectionable’ ???
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1901 3410/113/13
David and Mary Thompson and children are at 11 Eldon Place, Liverpool.
Cathy,
I think you have found a very likely family. Mary, though, isn’t at that address later and has possibly remarried :-\
Heywood
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1901 3410/113/13
David and Mary Thompson and children are at 11 Eldon Place, Liverpool.
Cathy,
I think you have found a very likely family.
Heywood
Well done Cathy & Heywood ;D At least that ties in with the military record Christine posted
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As ever though Rosie, I am cautious- I added a bit. She isn’t there later :-\
Perhaps needs more work :)
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It would be nice to know if Alamo is researching John 'Barney' Hines or someone else with a similar name
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A bit more though re Dora Quinlan and Eldon Place/Liverpool matches the record.
It would seem that John ‘Barney’ is likely to be John Heim/s but not the man Alamo is searching for so more information needed there.
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1901 3410/113/13
David and Mary Thompson and children are at 11 Eldon Place, Liverpool.
Cathy,
I think you have found a very likely family.
Heywood
Well done Cathy & Heywood ;D At least that ties in with the military record Christine posted
Jacob jnr married Sarah Hutchinson on 27 May 1901. His address 11 Eldon place, one of witnesses was John Heims of 2ct 5th Silvester street. I think it's John, Catholic marriage record so it's in Latin image on Ancestry.
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apr 30 1893 Dora Heim 41 widow married Thomas Wait widower. Her address Bond Street, Her father Henri Fanhoff occ farmer. witnesses James Rossiter and Margaret Hurst.
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In 1901 Thomas Wait and wife Dora are living at 11 Eldon place. At same address but possibly separate household are Rose Cleary a 17 year old married woman with a 4 month old son called John.
On marriage record Thomas Wait's address is Gildart Gardens
There is a John Cleary birth reg Q1 1901 Liverpool mmn Heims, so looks like Rose is Dora's daughter. Fits with 1891 census
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Hi JJen
John Barney Hines the WW1 Veteran never married.
Christine53 - I missed that about his mother being Dora on his War Record
I was going to trace his Sister Mrs Mary Thompson nee Hines of 23 Eldon Place, Liverpool - Marrying and work backwards through her life.
We must be on to the right man :)
Lizzie,
I think I saw that Rose married Patrick Cleary - possibly Rose Ann.
Heywood
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John Heim b Liverpool attested for 4 battn Liverpool regt on 27 sep 1895 age 18 yr 9 months. Occ blacksmith - like stepfather Thomas Wait. If anyone has FindMyPast access image is there - has his signature on!
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He was a blacksmith on the Naval record :)
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odd one - but there is a birth reg Liverpool district for Johanna Heim (female) in Q4 1878. Mother maiden name Hofaf (sic). Is this John with the Germanic / Latinised version of name (family were RC), which the registrar confused with the female Joanna? Hofaf as a name doesn't seem to be likely - not a single one on freebmd - but not a million miles from Fanhof. Jacob and Dora snr both from Germany, we don't know when they came to England, but likely they still had German accents and may not have spoken English very well in 1878
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Jacob Heim snr buried 10 Aug 1890 age 50. Address 22 Eldon Place. Burial at Ford cemetery Catholic burial register
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Jacob Heim jnr features on several crew lists. Addess in 1901 is 11 Eldon Place, by Nov 1907 moved to 17 Arthur street
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One to ponder
Baptism - in Latin
Rosa Anna Hiem birth 17th December 1884 baptised 28th December 1884.
Father: Jacobi Hiem
Mother: Dorae Dibbert ??? :-\
Dorothea Hinn baptism 4th August 1872 at St Joseph’s - mother’s name Hornhuff.
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Has anyone looked at the prison records in the link given earlier?
https://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=15927
If this is the same man we have John / Johann Heim born Liverpool of German parents, joins Army, last seen in Liverpool in 1901 witnessing brother's marriage, but not found on 1901 census. (I can't find the address given on marriage record, there seem to be a few numbers missing from Silvester road). Goes to NZ in earlier 1900's commits a few offences in Wellington and Auckland, goes to Australia in 1915 on the Somerset, joins Army. More offences committed in 1920s etc.
Changes his name at some point, possibly when he left England, pretended to be of Irish origin rather than German. Maybe he had been living with Irish communities in Liverpool and picked up an Irish accent.
Could one man do all this or do we have two people?
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Other variations from transcriptions
Jacobus Hyam birth 25th December 1873 baptised 4th January 1874 St Joseph's
Father: Jacobi Hyam
Mother: Dord Fanhaher
Matilda Hyam 1881 mother Dora Fornhough
Mary Barbara Hym 1876 mother Dora Forenhof
I can’t see one for John/Johannus etc :-\
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I would think it is the same man Lizzie - mother and sister plus address seem to support this.
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Gosh , this has moved on apace since I last looked !
From the Liverpool Electoral Registers for 23 Eldon Place :
1929-1930 Patrick Cleary Rose Ann Cleary
1934-1935 " " " "
1920 Dora Smith John Lynskey
1925 Dora Smith John Lynskey Charles Quinlan Arthur Melia
I see that Quinlan and Cleary have been mentioned above and I wonder about Dora Smith ?
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John's baptism as Joannis Haim - born 11 Oct 1878 bapt 20 Oct 1878, father Jacobus, mother Dorae olim Fanhoff.
added
godparent Johannis Baner and Mary Gibbons in case they turn up somewhere
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John's baptism as Joannis Haim - born 11 Oct 1878 bapt 20 Oct 1878, father Jacobus, mother Dorae olim Fanhoff.
added
godparent Johannis Baner and Mary Gibbons in case they turn up somewhere
The Naval application gives birth as 12th October 1876 - so looks reasonable if he was lying about his age, just adding a couple of years on.
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1901 3410/113/13
David and Mary Thompson and children are at 11 Eldon Place, Liverpool.
Cathy,
I think you have found a very likely family. Mary, though, isn’t at that address later and has possibly remarried :-\
Heywood
I think this is Mary Thompson , now calling herself Mary Hayde , with ' husband' Denis , 2 Hayde children and 2 stepsons John and Jacob Thompson :
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWRP-YXW
Mary Thompson married Denis Hayde in 1915 in Liverpool 8b 282
Mary Hayde 37 died Mar 1916 Liverpool 8b 38
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Wow Thanks everyone for your time and input what a load of info found in such a short space of time. So many leads to follow.
I first became interested in this man about a year or so ago when I read an Article in "Ireland's Own" Weekly Magazine, that reported the Life of John Barney Hines from Liverpool born 1873 ending up with a Bounty on his Head from the Kaiser in WW1
As my own Ancestry research was drying up. I thought I'd spend some time trying to research this man's early Liverpool Life.
As you can see not easy, hence I asked for your help in this Forum, which has always come up trumps for me in the past.
Can't Thank you all for all this info.
Alamo
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Well done everyone you've built up a good case for him being John Heim born in Liverpool on 11th October 1878. Mother is Dora as expected, father is Jacob and his sister Mary married David Thompson on 17th December 1893 at St Nicholas CE Liverpool:-
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9Y9-WQN1-R?cat=261432
It's a surprising outcome for him to be the son of German immigrants and quite understandable that his roots were conveniently forgotten. My own family managed to forget its German roots around the time of WW1.
Blue
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odd one - but there is a birth reg Liverpool district for Johanna Heim (female) in Q4 1878. Mother maiden name Hofaf (sic). Is this John with the Germanic / Latinised version of name (family were RC), which the registrar confused with the female Joanna? Hofaf as a name doesn't seem to be likely - not a single one on freebmd - but not a million miles from Fanhof. Jacob and Dora snr both from Germany, we don't know when they came to England, but likely they still had German accents and may not have spoken English very well in 1878
The German for John was Johann or Johannes so it's an easy mistake to make. They may have said Johannes and this was misheard as Johanna. My 3 x Great Grandfather's first and middle names were Johannes Peter or Johann Peter but as was the German custom he was usually known by his middle name Peter on the English records. His full name would only appear on one or two of his children's marriage records and in the English form as John Peter.
Blue
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1901 marriage Jacob Heims to Sara Hutchinson was at Our Lady Reconcilliation
1900 marriage Rose Ann Heims to Patrick Cleary - same church
Rose Ann Hiem ( no s on the end and I and e wrong way round ) same church - baptism 1884 mother Dora Dibbert - so Rose married at 16 possibly 15 years of age .
all on www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk .. 4 marriages for Heim Heims - all at the same church O.L.Reconcilliation
:)
1897 775 O L RECONCILIATION DOROTHY DOROTHEAM HEIM / CHARLES CAROLUM QUINLAN
1899 17 O L RECONCILIATION JOHN JOANNEM HEIM / NORA HANORAM MAHER
1901 805 O L RECONCILIATION JACOB JACOB HEIMS / SARA SARAM HUTCHINSON
1900 763 O L RECONCILIATION ROSE ANN ROSANNAM ANNAM HEIMS / PATRICK PATRICIUM CLEARY ..
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Is anyone planning to do a follow-up on this new information? The wiki entry will need editing but will need source references to support the changes. I'm still looking through the information to see if the evidence is strong enough for me to attempt an edit to the wiki page. I've edited similar pages in the past.
Blue
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Blue kindly pointed this thread to me because of the sugar connection ... both the 1871 and 1881 censuses show Jacob (senior) to have been working in one of the Liverpool sugar refineries.
Surprisingly, Jacob (Hime) and Dora (Fonhof) were married at St Mary Highfield Street Liverpool in MarQ 1870 [Anc], however the 1871 census shows Jacob to have an eight year old daughter Matilda (she died 1878 aged 15), whilst the 1881 census shows a daughter Matilda 2mo.
Both Jacob and Matilda had been born in Bavaria, Dora in Prussia. The GRO shows a death for a Mary Ann Heim in 1868 aged 30 in Liverpool, with FamilySearch giving a probable marriage as -
Jacobum Heim = Maria Anna Schmitt 26 Nov 1861 Katholisch, Glan-Muenchweiler, Pfalz, Bavaria.
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Dora was a Lutheran (from Hanover according to the 1901 census when she was then Dora Wait) there is an adult baptism for her showing that she converted to RC in 1873:-
Dorothea Heim, a Lutheran
Born: 24 January 1844
Baptised at SFX RC church Liverpool: 28th September 1873
subconditione Dorothea Heim, late Vonhoff daughter of Henry Vonhoff and Catherine Maier
Godmother/sponsor: Eva Schneider
Blue
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John married Hannah Maher on 22nd May 1899 at Our Lady RC in Eldon Street (marriage index: Johanis Heim & Hannah Maher, Apr/May/Jun 1899, Liverpool, vol: 8b, page: 311) and they had two children, Jacob in 1899 (registered in 1900 as Jacob Henn) and Hannah (Hannah Heim) in 1901. John is probably at sea at the time of the 1901 Census then Hannah marries again in 1906 to James May, then again in 1907 to Robert Melvin, both marriages at St Nicholas CE Liverpool. In 1906 she says she is a widow. Can anyone find a death or burial record for her John? Did John leave his family never to return and went on to become better known as John "Barney" Hines?
Heim/Hines' 1878 RC baptism, 1899 RC marriage and Hannah's 1906 re-marriage can be viewed here:-
https://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=15927&start=20
Blue
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I've created a John Heim website to support the edits on the wiki page. My edits have been challenged in the past when I've cited forum discussions alone some people doubt the value of forums as evidence. The website provides evidence that John Heim was John Hines and gives information about his early life and background:-
http://johnheim.webs.com/
Blue
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Thanks Blue70
You've achieved with that website, what I was hoping to do, once I got to the bottom of his early Liverpool Life.
Well Done !
Alamo2008
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Thanks ALAMO2008. The Liverpool & SW Lancs forum has recently had an update and lost some images in the process the new link to that thread is below. The images I posted there are on the John Heim website anyway so just go there to view them:-
https://www.lswlfhs.org.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=15927&sid=ecc3c90a6321fb6bc9aebcdad6c530d9
Blue
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Brilliant website Blue. :)
Now can we find the missing years
between witnessing brother's wedding in Liverpool in 1901 and appearing in Australia. One prison record shows several convictions in NZ, so did he jump ship there? One conviction was vagrancy, so didn't sound like he had a steady job there.
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Last mention was a Liverpool crew list for "Majestic" when he failed to join, date given as 31 July 1901. The earlier criminal record has his first charge in Auckland, New Zealand in November 1904:-
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/index_image/2467_a006_a00603_6091000177r
South Africa is one of the places mentioned but if he played a part in the Boer War it wasn't as a British soldier. He was a merchant seaman c1899-1901 during the first part of the war so he might only have got involved informally during the later guerrilla phase of the war which ended in 1902. Unfortunately looking at online sources Hines himself is the source for a lot of information about his early years and as we know he was economical with the truth on a regular basis.
Blue
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Someone doesn't like the changes to the wiki page and has reverted the changes, see the talk page:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:John_Hines_(Australian_soldier) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:John_Hines_(Australian_soldier))
Blue
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Thanks Blue70
Here is a link to the Weekly Magazine "Ireland's Own" that sparked my interest in "Barney " Hines over 4 years ago in 2014
https://imgur.com/a/6DpbF?
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Thanks ALAMO2008. Interesting read. He was certainly a character and I'm not going to scrutinise the bio of his later life. It's interesting how some articles pick up on the Irish background. He grew up in a predominantly Liverpool-Irish community and he had relations from an Irish background through marriage. I wonder what his accent was like.
Blue
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Liverpool Echo, Talkback (letters page), 9 March 2018
Scouse roots
Researchers have recently uncovered the Liverpool roots of legendary Australian WW1 soldier John “Barney” Hines. Hines appeared in an iconic photograph taken by Frank Hurley. Hines was a difficult character, but an aggressive and effective soldier in combat. Little was known about his early life until researchers discovered he was born under a different name. He was formerly John Heim, the son of German immigrants who settled in the Scotland Road area of Liverpool. More information is available on johnheim.webs.com
Blue
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An update on this research:-
Liverpool Electoral Registers show "John Heims" formerly of court 2 house 5 Silvester Street living at court 6 house 5 Silvester Street in 1902-03. He is at the same address in 1903-04 but not there in 1904-05 and doesn't appear in any further electoral records. The only John Heim that appears on future registers is the son of John's brother Jacob Heim and Sarah Hutchinson. His nephew only appears on the records from the 1920s. Hines's first criminal conviction in Auckland, New Zealand was in November 1904 so by 1904 he had left his wife and children.
The New Zealand and Australian newspapers have interesting and disturbing articles covering criminal cases and a coroner's inquest involving Hines (the suspicious death of a woman he was living with in 1920). They reveal that Hines was not the loveable rogue that he tried to present himself as but rather a man who had a very violent criminal past. After over a decade in New Zealand, spent mostly up to no good or in prison, John Hines moved to Australia. He arrived in Sydney, New South Wales, Australia on 18 August 1915 on the ship Somerset. The crew list names him as J Heim:-
J Heim; rank/rating, Fireman; age, 29; place of birth, Liverpool; previous ship, Ayrshire.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14700447
Blue
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Thanks for the update Blue.
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Somerset crew list for J Heim gives his address as '23 Eldon Place off Vauxhall Rd Liverpool' same address that Hines gave on his AIF service records. Heim was officially discharged from the ship Somerset at Sydney on 25 Aug 1915 the day after Hines enlisted in the AIF. It looks like Heim/Hines reason for going to Australia was to join up. No idea if he had tried the New Zealand army or not. Perhaps with his terrible criminal record and bad reputation in New Zealand he was unlikely to be accepted there.
Blue
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Article published in Sabretache: The Journal and Proceedings of The Military Historical Society of Australia, vol. LIX, no. 4 - December 2018, The Hidden Life of John 'Barney' Hines, transcript here:-
https://johnheim.webs.com/more
Blue