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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Caernarvonshire => Topic started by: Philip Bell on Thursday 01 March 18 22:31 GMT (UK)
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In the 1851 Census, my GGGrandfather Henry Griffith, living at Chapel Row, Criccieth is described as a horse jockey. In the 1861 and 1871 Census he is described as a horse breaker. By 1881 he was described as a farmer, living at Cefniwrch Bach, Criccieth. In Ceiri Griffith's book he is also known as Cae Harry. Can anyone throw some light on these occupations? Horse breaker I can understand at a time when horses would have been used extensively. But jockey? Any clue as to why he had what I assume was the nickname of Cae Harry?
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I would suggest that the occupation horse jockey would relate to horse breaking as his later occupations. Have you found him in 1841??
Re the nickname Cae Harry - Cae in Welsh is Falls in English - maybe indicating breaking was an occupation where you were often bucked off?? ;D
Kay
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Re the nickname Cae Harry - Cae in Welsh is Falls in English - maybe indicating breaking was an occupation where you were often bucked off?? ;D
Cae is field in welsh !
Kay
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Cae is definitely Field in Welsh.
Falls (as in waterfall) is usually pistyll
Gadget
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Hi Philip
My guess is jockey is what we would expect it to be, a horse racer. Maybe point to point or on track. You can find a few jockeys around the Llyn at the time.
Because of the commonality of names in Wales, people were often known by the name of their home or area. As an example the chap in the adjacent photo is "Ellis Owen Cefnymeusydd", Cefnymeusydd being his farm outside Criccieth. Cae commonly means field, I had an ancestor who lived in a cottage called Cae Gwyn (White field) and therefore assume Henry at one point lived or worked somewhere that had the word Cae in its place name.
Glyn
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Re the nickname Cae Harry - Cae in Welsh is Falls in English - maybe indicating breaking was an occupation where you were often bucked off?? ;D
Cae is field in welsh !
Kay
Oh dear - So much for Google Translate - or maybe it is just me!!
Kay
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Growing up in Wales and having Welsh as part of the school curriculum is much better than Google, Kay.
My Welsh is now very rusty but Cae, I know.
;D
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Its OK
Unfortunately google translate is rubbish !
Welsh is my mother tongue and I live in Criccieth.
I will check T Ceiri Griffiths book later.....
Nesta
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Since Cefniwrch Bach was a farm and this link to the tithe maps of 1840 show the names of the fields many starting with Cae www.rootschat.com/links/01lof/
Nesta so that you can quickly find Henry Griffith in Ceiri Griffith's Achau, he is on the top line of tree [63]. Philip raised him as a query in www.rootschat.com/links/01log/
Glyn
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Thanks everyone. Kay, I made the same mistake and thought that the nickname was a reference to Henry's propensity to falling off. It has ruined a good joke. I haven't found him in the 1841 census which is frustrating and I can only guess he was working as a hired hand maybe on a stud or stable or something! Thanks to Glyn's help in my earlier post I now know that Henry Griffith, born 1809, was the son of Ann Hughes and Henry Griffith who farmed at Bodgauaf Uchaf just to the south of Bryncroes. His father died in 1819 and Ann carried on farming 120 acres, employing 3 men. (Census 1851) Ann died in 1859 and I assume the tenancy was carried on by another son Richard who died in 1890.
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Thanks Glyn for the link-
what I find is interesting is that I have never heard of a tradition of studs or stables in this area.
Nesta
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i believe Henry was living at what looks like Llys yn gwyn, Penmorfa in 1841. HO107/1391/8/16/5
Although it appears to be one property it has 11 occupants from different families. Is it a servants quarter? Although Henry is the only one who has an occupation Agricultural Labourer.
I seem to remember a handful of jockeys being listed around the Pwllheli area on Yffor.com and thats the only reason I mentioned it.
Glyn
Correction there are 3 servants among the 11.
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Please ignore my last suggestion for the Henry Griffith in Penmorfa. This one was still in the village in the 1851 census when your's was living in Criccieth.
Glyn
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Thanks Glyn. The strange thing is I can't find Henry's wife, Ellen or Elinor, or his daughters Jane or Anne either!
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I am scratching my head trying to find them in the 1841 Census. The nearest I came to it was a farmer down in Glamorgan aged 30 with two daughters Ann aged 3 and Elenor aged 1. However, his wife's name was Margaret. This made me wonder about Henry and Elin's marriage which was not mentioned in Achau [63]. I have searched and cannot find it. I notice on GRO for Eliseus birth in 1843 that the mother's maiden name is Williams. I assume that this means she used a patronymic second name since her father was William Jones or Elin was not the mother and Henry was previously married. The former is probably the most feasible.
I also haven't found the birth details for Ann and Elinor although Achau [63] is specific about Ann's baptism/birth being 4/4/1838 but no parish is given.
Glyn
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I have now found two Ann's registered at Pwllheli in 1838
Anne Griffith D Quarter vol 27 page 325
Anne Griffiths D Quarter vol 27 page 315
Pwllheli 1840
Eleanor Griffiths M Quarter Vol 27 page 363
Strangely the mother's maiden name for all three is Jones.
It may be safe to assume that the family were somewhere near to Criccieth in 1841 but were not recorded on the Census.
Glyn
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There's this pair in Cefn Isa, Llanystymdwy [or Llan Ystyn dwy as Ancestry call it]
Ellin Griffith 25
Anne Griffith 3
HO107, 1391, 6; 3
If it is them, not sure where Jane or Henry are. It may fit as 1851 has children born Llanystymdwy c1842 & 1844
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Thank you Glyn and Mabel! I really appreciate your interest and help. On Glyn's comment, Cae Harry's wife Ellin was born at Dolbenmein in 1790 to Jane Williams and William Jones [Achau 57]
Harry's father Henry described as a Singleman, married Ann Hughes at Bryncroes in 1807. [yffor]
My GGrandmother Jane Griffith was also born at Dolbenmaen in 1836 and would have been only 5 at the time of the 1841 census. If anyone has transcribed the Dolbenmein returns some clue may be found there.
Mabel's comment is very interesting as one of my cousins has the diary of my uncle, Jane's grandson and we know he visited Llanystumdwy and we didn't understand his interest in the village. I think I will have to take a closer look at Ellin Jnr. and Anne!
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Just a point to note the parishexof llanystymdwy in the West dolbenmaen to the north and ynys cynhaearn to the West encircled Criccieth and it could depend on which side of the lane the property was on . Look at the national library of Scotland old maps online to pinpoint the farms
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Thanks again Mabel for the heads up about the Llanystumdwy birth place of Elinor and Eliseus. I had printed out the 1851 transcription and the original image but stupidly had not read it properly! :-\
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Thanks Nesta. Forgive me - ynys cynhaearn?
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Ynys Cynhaearn is the parish that covers the Porthmadog area ... I relation to Criccieth eastwards through pentrefelin
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Thanks Nesta. Understood.
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www.rootschat.com/links/01lov/
Here is a link to a couple of obituaries for Elin and her son William plus an advert for the sale of the farm stock after Elin's death. Since Henry would seem to be a prominent member of the community I am surprised not find any articles on him.
Glyn
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Fascinating! Thanks Glyn. I've never had any luck with newspaper searches. Must try a search for Bodgauaf Uchaf!
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Thanks again to Mabel for finding Elinor and Anne Griffith in 1841 living at Cefyn Isaf, Llanystumdwy. Definitely them because two more children born there in 1841 and 1844 - certificates establish that without a doubt. However, the father Henry (Cae Harry) and his eldest daughter Jane, my GGrandmother still AWOL in 1841. A mystery! Thanks again to everyone for your help
Philip