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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Kirkcudbrightshire => Topic started by: Mojo47 on Monday 05 March 18 05:08 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I am looking for help and/or opinions on the following.
I have an ancestor John Morrison born 1811 New Abbey,Kirkudbrightshire and baptized at Kirkconell Roman Catholic Church.Parents names are James Morrison and Martha Stranach.
I have searched for James and Martha in all RC church records in Kirkudbrightshire and Dumfriesshire without a single trace.
What I have found is a James Morrison, Baptized 1809 at the same church.Parents are James Morrison and Martha Strandford, who appear to be from Ireland.The baptism is recorded at Gibbon Hill, the only trace of which I can find is a Gibbon Hill Farm, a few miles from New Abbey.
Based on the above, what are the opinions about these being the same people.
All help most welcome
John
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Before I'd finished reading this, I thought 'from Ireland' :)
I would say that it seems quite possible that they are the same. Martha's surname being misheard or even miss transcribed in one of the entries. Have you followed up James (1809) to see if thee is any more information on him.
Also, have to looked in the Irish records for a marriage for James and Martha?
Gadget
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Hi again
I've just searched through the baptisms at Kirkconnel RC for 1800 to1920 on Scotlands People and don't see any of the names you mention.
Could you tell me where you found he records, please.
Gadget
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Just another thought. Given the location of Kirkconnel, have you looked in Ayrshire?
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Interesting wording on the two baptisms
On the one for James it says son to James Morrison and Martha Strangford said to be his lawful wife and married about five years agoin Granart parish county of Longford by F Peter Daily.
On John's it says son to James Morrison and Martha Stranach prot.
The wording seems to be at odds with others on the respective pages - key words for James are "said to be" while all the others have the expression lawful wife on the page with John's. Not au fait enough with RC records to be sure but presumably prot. is an abbreviation of protestant.
William
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Just had your PM, William.
I'd never have thought of looking on FindMyPast for those records ::)
So why are they not on SP?
Gadget
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It would also appear that the marriage was an RC one - F. Peter Daily.
It might well be in the Irish records sets.
Gadget
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The only thing that I can think of to explain why they are on FindMyPast but not on SP is that there are records for several parishes on the same page and in the same hand, suggesting that they are copies of the original parish returns. Both data sets on FindMyPast and SP appear to have been sourced from the Scottish Catholic Archive.
William
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Something like our BTs then?
I've had a brief look at some of the Irish records but can't find anything in Co Longford.
I'm thinking that it might be worth Mojo putting up a new query in Ireland with a link to this thread.
There are a few possibles for James and John on the 1841 but no way of telling and looking for deaths might cost a good few credits. I did find one death for a James, in Kirkcudbright, a blacksmith, aged 76 but parents and wife were recorded as unknown.
Gadget
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Hi,
Thanks for your input.It’s really a great help to have the thoughts of others on this.
I’ve made a tiny bit of progress. Father Peter Daly appears to exist as Parish Priest of Granard,County Longford.
I found the Parish records free online and searched 1800-1809 with no luck.Although I did find them hard to read and may have overlooked them.
I have just posted on the Irish site in the hope of pointers or help that might locate this pair.
I only discovered I had Scottish ancestry a couple of weeks ago and now I might have Irish too in this line.
These people are my great grandparents x4 and I would love to solve this puzzle.
Thanks again for your help.Any more ideas would be appreciated!!
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I forgot to add that I’ve found John in the 1851 census but no luck yet for James or for John in 1841.
I’ve looked at Ayrshire also with no luck yet.
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Is your John living in Colvend in 1851?
I note in 1841 there is at Glenstocken, Colvend
John Morrison 25 ag lab
Mary Morrison 10 mo.
Ann Morrison 25
1851 census would suggest that there ought to be a son James in the above as well but I then noticed the following 1841 census in New Abbey(from Freecen)
Address Burnfoot
Martha Strathon 75 pauper b Ireland
Mary Morrison 28 straw hat maker b Kirkcudbrightshire
James Mossey 9 b Kirkcudbrightshire
James Morrison 3 b Kirkcudbrighshire
Might this Martha be John's mother?
Censuses suggest John is in Colvend in 1861 and 1871 although age varies in transcriptions. Possible death 1880 in Colvend age 68 - if correct hopefully death cert.would confirm parents names.
William
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I forgot to add that I’ve found John in the 1851 census but no luck yet for James or for John in 1841.
I’ve looked at Ayrshire also with no luck yet.
Could you give details of the 1851 that you've found so that we know which John is the one you're interested in.
Gadget
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Hi,
Yes, the Colvend John is my great grandfather x 3 and I have just found him there with his wife Ann in the 1841 census. Age is a little out but names all match.
I'd looked at the James from Kirkbean and re-looked at where Kirkbean is.It is not far from New Abbey where John was born but in the 1851 census gives birthplace as Urr. Also on James' baptism gives the family living at Glenson. I can find a Glenson cottage about 9 miles from Kirkbean.A place called Haugh of Urr is also about 9 miles from Glenson cottage.
mmmm. Still unsure on this one
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Not sure on Martha Strathon being John or James' mother. Why would she use her maiden name?
But as it is a Martha with some Morrisons in the right area, it may be worth looking into??
This is driving me slightly nuts!
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Death cert for John Morrison 1880,Colvend has the following details
John Morrison (married to Ann Richardson) died 5 Aug 1880 Parents James Morrison Agricultural Labourer (deceased) and Martha Morrison m/s Strachan (deceased).
You would need to look at the original of the 1841 census to see if Strathon could be a poor transcription of Strachan.
To answer your question re. use of maiden name this is very commonly seen on Scottish censuses after wives have become widowed. I also think it worth considering that James and Martha never married. I repeat my point that the wording on the two Kirkconnel baptisms is to say the least unusual. James it can be inferred was RC and Martha was a protestant.I note that John was married in the Church of Scotland and his children were baptised there.
Ann Morrison (Richardson) appears to have died 1900 - her death cert.should give the names of her parents. Death certs. can be downloaded from Scotland's People(credits only site).
William
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Hi,
Thanks for some great help and suggestions. Here's the latest update:
1841 Census Burnfoot New Abbey Martha Strathon 75
1851 Census Burnfoot New Abbey Martha Morrison 85
Death 1857 Burnfoot New Abbey Martha Morrison 95 Fathers name Alexander Straten
Clearly the same person. Marked as widow on the above.
John's 1880 death as already stated(thanks William) parents James Morrison and Martha Strachan
So we have the surnames Stranach, Strandford, Strathon,Strachen, Straten and of course Morrison. Stranach and Strachen are 2 names definately connected to John.
Ann Morrison death of 1900 is correct wife of John.
Any more thoughts on how to prove Martha Straten(?) is John's mother?
Thanks all again. No way would I have got this far without your help!
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The 1851 census has grandson William Morrison with Martha. I note the informant on Martha's death cert is her daughter Mary Morrison.
William would appear to be the illegitimate son of Mary Morrison born 27 March 1842 ,New Abbey. He married Margaret Coltart 7 Aug 1868 in New Abbey.
Mary Morrison is in 1851 showing as a dairymaid in Closeburn,Dumfriesshire. In 1861 she is at Gateside, New Abbey, a labourer. In 1871 the only Mary Morrison in New Abbey is an agricultural labourer age 64 born Ireland. In spite of the disparity in age and pob I do think that this is the same Mary.
Death 1880 New Abbey
Mary Morrison pauper outdoor worker, single ,died 4 July 1880 age 75. Parents James Morrison agricultural labourer (deceased) and Martha Morrison m/s Strachan (deceased).Informant Margaret Morrison Daughter in Law present.
My conclusion from all this would be that(in all probability!) the Martha in the 1841 and 1851 censuses was Johns's mother.
William
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Thank you William!!
You have really helped so much on this.Thanks for all other input also.
From Mary and John's death certificates, they clearly have the same parents. The witness for mary is her son Williams wife, which also links Martha, Mary and William together from the census. Also from the census and baptism of John and death of Martha we have the name variations Stranach, Strachen, Stratan.
The Strandford surname of William does seem a bit of a stretch but with the above variations I think it couldn't be ruled out. It would be good to find a baptism for Mary and see what that says, but no luck yet.
From martha's death we have her fathers name Alexander, a name which appears through my ancestors line(at least two more)
I found James Morrisons(Blacksmith) death on SP but it does not give parents or wife and he appears to have died in the workhouse.
From Martha's Irish birth, married to James and a close surname, I think it is fairly safe to assume James from the RC baptism of 1809 is John and Mary's brother.
A bit more research should complete this line (in Scotland) and then I can start searching for my Wallace, Robertson's, Reid's and Abel's
I can't thank you enough for the great help!