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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: Claddagh on Monday 05 March 18 20:27 GMT (UK)
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Hello everyone, I was gifted these lovely photos and wanted to know if the women in these photos are one in the same? I believe that they are. The single photo of the woman holding flowers is new to my collection and I am quite certain that she is the same lady as in the other photos.
1- Can you tell what year the photos were taken by the clothing they are wearing?
2- Can you give me an approximate age of these people by their clothing? The man was born in 1865/died between 1901-1909 and his wife we believe was born in 1866 and died in 1901.
Any help would be immensely appreciated.
Claddagh
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Guessing the second two are 1890s - Huge sleeves. Same person.
First one - guessing 1880s.
Not sure they are the same - certainly very similar but - hard to tell with the first faded, marked photo but I think she is older. Could be closely related though - mother or sister?
Hope no-one shoots me down in flames with my guessing. ;)
Wiggy :)
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Agree with 1880 but am in two mins about the other two. They're not clear enough for me to see much of the detail but I think the ones with the blouses just maybe 1900s. The skirt and blouse was popular then and the little boys may have laces rather than buttons (so after 1900).
Will try to make them clearer. Need to see the blouse front and boys boots!
Gadget
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I was tossing up about 1900s with that high collar on the blouse, but . . . :-\ :-\
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I'm not sure about it but I've seen clothing like that on a photo that I can't find and it was 1900s. Need to see more detail on the blouse front though to be sure :-\
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Thank you everyone! The boys were born in 1887 and 1890.
I thought the first woman was the same as the last two. Would an Irishwoman come to England to take a portrait in a studio?
Could the woman in the first photo be the mother of the man or woman in the photo?
The first photo was in the possession of the son (the oldest of the two young boys in photo 3) whose parents are in the photo number 2.
Your impressions and information are much appreciated.
Claddagh
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If those are dofbs for boys then it would be 1890s then.
Can't see anyone travelling to England for a photograph though :-\
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Gadget - So that rules out having this woman be the mother of James Johnson the man in the second photo. His wife Emily Smith (we believe was born in London, England) and this woman might be her mother. We know nothing of her family.
If Emily was born probably in 1866, do you believe that this woman is older?
She appears to be light-haired, probably strawberry blonde hair and if the lady is older in the first photo than she might have gray hair.
So many possibilities that boggle the mind. :o
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Part of the fun Claddagh!! - sorting out the threads! ;)
If you could scan the first one again at a much higher resolution it would be easier to enlarge and see some detail. Is that possible? :)
Wiggy
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Is there any chance of a clearer scan of the first woman? The surface looks very rough so it's difficult to see the features. I have one of my grandmother where the surface is rough and it's very difficult to get the features back :-\
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A quick comparison
Think they do look very alike.
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I'll see what I can do. The photo is dirty and has patina but thankfully the face is clean. I will post something clearer.
Thanks again!
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I think that the two women could definitely be one in the same. Emily died at 35. Do you think that the first photo is someone older? Would the style of clothing be worn after 1901 or before?
???
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The first one (1880s) is younger than the second one. She has the chubbier cheeks of a younger woman but her hair was up so it would date her to mid-late 1880s. What di she die of, as the later one looks quite ill - drawn face and quite pale :-\
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I do not know what she died of but I think that I heard it was Tuberculosis. She and her family are a mystery but I can tell you that her life and the lives of her husband and children are one tragedy after another. He husband was a military man and naturally he was away for long periods of time. They were deeply devoted to each other but tragedy struck with the death of a son, then the wife dies, the husband and their daughter is cared for by a grandmother, then an aunt and she ends up with the Sisters of Nazareth. She eventually spends her final years with her loving Auntie. Poor Emily who we all believe was a Protestant marries a Catholic Irishman for love and had a difficult life until her death. We know nothing of her family and we've been told that she was disowned for marrying a Catholic Irishman. They moved from Ireland to England (where the two younger children were born) and were often separated from their children. It must have been devastating for the children. The two eldest sons emigrated to Canada and the eldest brother tried to bring Emily to Canada but due to illness the immigration officials wouldn't let her cross the oceans. She had been brought to the hospital with consumption. I feel such sadness when I think of all that they endured. I have a heartbreaking letter written by the daughter who dies before reaching adulthood and you can see how hard her poor life has been. How fortunate we are to be born in this era. Sorry for the long message but it clarifies the look on poor Emily's face. She did not have it easy like so many of our ancestors. Thanks for reading and understanding why these ancestors need a voice!
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When we dig, we often find such sad stories and great fortitude shown by our ancestors.
Your Emily looks quite ill in those photos, that's why I asked.
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Very well said Gadget. I'm attaching two photos. This is as clear as I can get. The photo is so dirty. Do you know how to safely clean photos? I would like to be able to make this lady shine again.
Thanks again for lending a hand! Your information is invaluable to me.
BTW Gadget, my profile photo is Emily Smith Johnson, the lady in these photos. You could use that photo as well to compare. I've also attached the lovely photo of Emily in the intricate brooch. The story in the family is that her father was an English jeweller. Would be interesting if he had been.
Claddagh
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A lovely photo of Emily Smith.
I was told to always look at the ears because they are a key identifier for comparing photos.
I believe that all these ladies are one in the same through various stages of her brief 35 years. Although we have no birth certificate for Emily Smith, she could have been even younger.
Thanks again everyone for dropping by and lending a hand!
Claddagh
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I think she's probably the same woman -
I'll see what I can do with the 1880s pic later on this evening and compare with the brooch one and one of the later ones in the blouse.
I'm in the middle of cooking at the moment. I'll be back.
Gadget
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Please take your time. I look forward to seeing what you come up with.
Happy cooking! ;)
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Could you give me full details of the couple and their children. I just have their birth dates and death dates from your first posting but not where they were born/ married/died, etc.
Gadget
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I'll get back to you on that later on this evening Gadget.
I will provide you all the details that I have.
Thanks again!
Claddagh
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Here we go Gadget.
Husband: James Johnson
Son of: Robert Johnson and Catherine Donnelly
Born: Dunlavin, Co. Wicklow, Ireland
Date: July 4, 1865
Death Date: Unknown but it is prior to 1909 and probably in London, England or Dunlavin, Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Buried: Unknown
He is one of nine children.
Wife: Emily Smith or Smyth. We believe (no proof) that she was born in London, England in 1866.
Family: Unknown but a relative thinks that her parents might be Frederick Smyth and Elizabeth Pakenham and that their daughter Emily was born on October 22, 1865 in Coolattin and Clonegall, Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Died: March 11, 1901 in Marylebone, St. John, London, England of Asthemia Pulmonary Tubercle. I just found her death certificate in my files. We are convinced that she is our Emily.
Marriage Certificate: We believe that this is their marriage certificate even though the names are misspelled because in a letter written by their daughter to her oldest brother, she mentions that it was her parents’ wedding anniversary and the dates corroborate. I was told that the marriage certificate was not filed and that is the reason why the name of her father has never been found.
I have the information for their first two sons. I am only missing when the first born son Robert James Johnson immigrated to Canada. I am starting to believe that he might have been a Home School Child and sent over to Canada. He was 14 when his mother died and in the Census of Ireland, 1901 his brother Edward Patrick and sister Emily Catherine are living with his paternal grandmother Catherine Donnelly Johnson but he is nowhere to be found. He appears in the 1911 Census of Canada. I cannot for the life of me find his father James Johnson who had been in the military for many years.
Children:
Son: Robert James Johnson (genealogy traced) born in Dunlavin, Co. Wicklow, Ireland, died in Canada.
Son: Edward Patrick Johnson (genealogy traced) born in Tynte Park, Co. Wicklow, Ireland, died in Canada.
Son: Gregory Lennon Johnson
Born: May 4, 1895
Place of Birth: Toberbeg, Dunlavin, Co. Wicklow, Ireland
Died: 1897 in Marylebone, Middlesex, England
Daughter: Emily Catherine Johnson
Born: May 24, 1898
Place of Birth: London, England
Died: July-Sept 1913 in Banbridge, Co. Down, Northern Ireland where she is buried with family. She is listed as Emily Johnston. She was living with her paternal Aunt Bridget Byrne after she left the Sisters of Nazareth where she stayed from 1909-1911 so I assume that this is her. She was brought to Belfast Union on September 9, 1911 in consumption. Could she have suffered from this disease until her death in 1913? Poor child, I feel for her. The handwritten letter that I have from her is dated from October, 1912 and she is living with her Aunt in Banbridge, 8 Ashley Street, Co. Down. I have not found her death certificate.
I was given the following information by someone but not too sure where to go to find out if this is our Emily Catherine Johnson.
Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes, 1845-1958 for Emily Johnston
Name: Emily Johnston
Registration District: Banbridge
Event Type: DEATHS
Registration Quarter and Year: Jul - Sep 1913
Estimated Birth Year: 1898
Age (at Death): 15
Mother's Maiden Name:
Film Number: 0101605
Volume Number: 1
Page Number: 87
Digital Folder Number: 4201709
Image Number: 00574
If you need anything else Gadget, I will drop by later on tonight. I’ve included the marriage certificate for James Johnston and Emily Smyth as well as the unconfirmed birth certificate of Emily Smith/Smyth.
Thank you so much for your kindness! My Johnson family has been my eternal brick wall. Hopefully you can shed some light.
Claddagh
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I have found the birth certificate of Emily to the parents that you mention. Frederick is recorded as an Excise man, which might explain a trip to London :-\
Here's the link, if you don't have it:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1865/03554/2308808.pdf
Gadget
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Thank you Gadget! I certainly hope this is our Emily. How wonderful if it is. I didn't have this document. I appreciate the link. This website is new to me.
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I'd like to ask you if you might point me in the right direction.
I am trying to locate the family of Edward Donnelly.
James Johnson marries Emily Smith/Smyth
James's parents Robert Johnson and Catherine Donnelly
Catherine's parents Edward Donnelly and Elizabeth Heyden
Elizabeth's parents William Heyden and Elizabeth Hutchinson (daughter of Patrick Hutchinson and Judith Whelan)
Edward's parents ???
Edward and Elizabeth were married on October 11, 1832 in Dunlavin, Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
They had four children including Catherine.
I cannot find a birth certificate for Catherine and her older sister Mary.
The other two children Bridget and John, I have births but not birth places.
Elizabeth Heyden was born in Co. Laois, Ireland.
Where do you suggest I head next? I feel like a detective searching for the next clue.
Thanks again!
Claddagh
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The 1880's scan is very bad. It's very low resolution and heavily compressed.
This is what I get when I remove the colour cast and enlarge it 2x. (Em-1) I've adjusted it a little bit there is littel to work on, especially the eye. I could draw in the features but that would be just a drawing. I've also put up a smoother version but have not corrected any of the blotches (Em-2). I've reduced the contrast to eliminate the nasty pixels but these are definitely not restores as yet.
If you were sent it, there's not a lot that you can do. Maybe you could get back to the sender and ask for it to be scanned at 600 dpi resolution and with compression.
The face shape (although plumper that the later Emilys), hairline and style, the ears and how she holds her head are so like the older Emily that I think it is her. Im not sure what she was doing in that part of London. Maybe she was there just before she was married or even a honeymoon, though no rings are showing.
I'm busy tomorrow and Thursday but will try to see if I can come up with something on them all over the next few days. Maybe Wiggy might have a go :-\
If you can get a re-scan that would be better.
Gadget
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My browser threw a wobbly i nthe middle of that.
Here's Em2
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Here's the site that I used:
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/
They're adding to it all the time.
:D
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Thank you very much Gadget! I appreciate your trying to clean her up. I have the original and it stained and yellowed. I don't know what else I can possibly do.
It mentions on her death certificate that she was a seamstress and the hospital where she died. She left her children with her mother-in-law and went to London, England to find work. I was told that she had her own clothing store but I have no proof and if they were financially challenged I don't believe this could be possible. It would have been nice for her family to offer her some much needed help. Did they truly have no clue as to the dire straits her family was in? Just positively heartbreaking and senseless suffering for everyone.
We know nothing of her family and her children were named for Johnson family members. Such a sad and frustrating mystery.
The link will be most helpful.
Many thanks!
Claddagh
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If you have the original, scan it as I said - set the resolution(dpi) to 600 and then save it without any compression - say a tiff or png. It will probably be very large so I'll send you my e-mail and you can send it to that.
I had a quick look for Frederick and Elizabeth but not found a marriage so far.
:)
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Thank you Gadget! I will resend as requested.
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I have had a go, but as Gadget says the scan is not good and there is little to work with - Can't get in to fix her face well because of pixilation. I notice the same shadow under her left eye in the other photos - so maybe she just has that.
I know this is a rubbish 'go' but maybe you can see her a little better.
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Great job Wiggy! You can see the detail on her face. If you could see how dirty the photo is, you'd understand that the scanner can only do so much.
I don't know how to clean the photo and I'm honesty terrified of destroying it beyond repair. Do you know how to clean dirty and yellowed photos?
Many thanks!
Claddagh
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Don't clean it - just re-scan as I said. You will damage it if you scrub or rub.
Wiggy might tell you about how I showed her how to scan many years ago ;D ;D ;D
A really good attempt, Wiggy. My eyes were going haywire as I've been busy today.
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I will rescan but I am wondering if we can clean photos that have smudges or stains on them?
What can be done to bring them back to life?
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Attempt being the operative word. ::) ;)
Yes Claddagh - Gadget was nearly grey and hairless by the time she'd taught me enough to get by! ;D ;D
Don't clean - just scan at really high dpi - Gadget will tell you - OH she already has! ;) ;) Or send her the original and she can do magical things.
I will rescan but I am wondering if we can clean photos that have smudges or stains on them?
What can be done to bring them back to life?
Post them on RC. You can specifically ask for just a clean or no colouring or whatever. And hopefully the restorers will adhere to your request.
But all the restorers really like decent scans - so if you learn how to do that, you will be home and hosed. ;) 8)
I think cleaning by hand would ruin them - You could take them to a pro and get them done at about $50/each - that's another option! ;D
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I'll repost after dinner. Hopefully there is magic in the air and a good dose of Irish luck.
I don't plan on cleaning it but would like to restore it without paying a fortune. Maybe some things are best left untouched.
Claddagh
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It is a beautiful photo and with a decent scan will be able to be restored - no doubt!
Just send it to Gadget! And give her time. The photo won't go away in the meantime! :D :D
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It's not the marks that are the problem, it's the quality of the scan. To get it at 600 dpi and no compression is what we need.It will be too big to post here but if you send it to my e-mail, I can send it to Wiggy or anyone else who might be interested.
Gadget