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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Woodworker22 on Sunday 11 March 18 22:28 GMT (UK)
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My Paternam GGF's name is Van Comberg. He was born in Belgium in 1821. His wife is Melania (no last name). Could this be them? Can you help with the translation?
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It is not old German,it is Flemish.
Dated 1852, the ladies` name was Melania de Prins.
give me a bit of time and I`ll get the gist at least.Viktoria.
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The writing is a bit difficult and also Flemish spelling altered after this date.
This is what I can see so far :-
The year 1852 in the month of February ,at the latter end and a Sunday---Eduard van Roie---the parish of Bornhem,the parish of Mechelen(Malines)Antwerp.-----at eleven before midday-------
of marriage, Jacobus van Cauwenbergh, 30 years ,born and living-------of age and the son of
Johannes Nicholas van Cauwenbergh and Johanna Dorothea (Kowers)of Bornhem and----- Maria
Anastassia Gillis,a hand worker in silk.--
Perhaps there is something to help you. I`ll try again tomorrow. V.
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The date was February 8th,it says "achterste"which can mean eighth or behind,the hindmost.
It must be a marriage contract or declaration that the banns have been read for the first time.
Melania was 27 years, the youngest daughter of Paulus de Prins and Maria ( I think Anastassia)
Gillis also a silk worker.Married women in Belgium keep their maiden names.
My son could sort it out but is away for work at the moment but I hope there is something of use to you.
Is it possible the name was altered slightly ? it is definitely Van Cauwenbergh.
Viktoria.
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Thank you Viktoria...I've seen the name Van Comberg spelled many different ways, sometimes even without the Van. This seems to fit in so many ways. I'm going to dig into this deeper. I hope you will help if I find any other Flemish documents. This is my first ancestor from Belgium that I will be researching. Thanks again.
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Please help....Here is one more document to help validate Melanie DePrins as my ancestor. I wish I had the skills to translate this myself.
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I`ll get on to it,it is a birth cert for Melania.
Been busy today,unexpected visitors etcbut I will get back to you ASAP. Viktoria.
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Viktoria...Thanks...You've got me excited about the results!
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Viktoria...One more question...If Jacob Van Comberg (van Cauwenbergh) married Melania Deprins, according to Belgian custom, would their son have the last name of van Cauwenbergh or Deprins? I believe this document is a birth/christening for Aloysius Deprins. In my tree, I have Jacob Van Comberg and Melania having a son Aloysius who was born in Belgium. Could this be him?
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1824,April 20th.Bornhem The Recorder for Civil Affairs was Petrius Joannes Brys.
Paulus De Prins ,agriculturalist (Ag Lab probably)married ,has a child of female sex .Born 5 hours before midday.
His lawful married wife Anna Gillis aged 30 has given the forename Melania.
Witnesses( and therefore Godparents)were Josephus Van Assche,------Derijke.An agriculturist and a labourer.Both presently living in Bornham.
The father of the child has declared he cannnot write but the Godparents have both signed after it being read to them.
This is the bare bones but the relevant information is there.
So many words I have found difficult and the altered spelling too but it would be nice to know exactly what they say.I`ll ask my son when he is back from his business trip just to check I have not misled you.It is almost 42years since we lived in Belgium and I am a bit rusty. I made errors when I lived there but got by alright ,once asking for sardines without fur and legs when I meant without skin and bones ;D
Cheerio,viktoria.
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A woman who marries keeps her maiden name so,Jane Smith marries John Brown, she becomes Jane Brown Smith.
Any children would have their father`s surname.
I`ve glanced at the latest paper, it is such small writing but I can see the name you mentionedbut also the word "overleden"which means dead, I am not sure because it is difficult to enlarge but the father`s name appears a little later so if the baby or the father I have not yet grasped.
I will have another look but be prepared that I may have made errors as nuances of meaning etc have long passed out of my understanding!( if they were ever there--sardines without fur and legs)Goodnight. Viktoria.
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Thank you Viktoria....I hope to hear from you soon!
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1824,April 20th.Bornhem The Recorder for Civil Affairs was Petrius Joannes Brys.
Paulus De Prins ,agriculturalist (Ag Lab probably)married ,has a child of female sex .Born 5 hours before midday.
His lawful married wife Anna Gillis aged 30 has given the forename Melania.
Witnesses( and therefore Godparents)were Josephus Van Assche,------Derijke.An agriculturist and a labourer.Both presently living in Bornham.
The father of the child has declared he cannnot write but the Godparents have both signed after it being read to them.
This is the bare bones but the relevant information is there.
So many words I have found difficult and the altered spelling too but it would be nice to know exactly what they say.I`ll ask my son when he is back from his business trip just to check I have not misled you.It is almost 42years since we lived in Belgium and I am a bit rusty. I made errors when I lived there but got by alright ,once asking for sardines without fur and legs when I meant without skin and bones ;D
Cheerio,viktoria.
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I`ve had a go and am not at all certain who has died.
It could be the baby. Melania his mother lived at least to 1852.but it says "overladen" after Melania`s father.
Words come in a very different order to English,eg "Yesterday my mother at the park was".
However---- there is a "Veldtwachter "involved , a civil local policenman (village Bobby).Joannes Bergkens aged 51.It is possible he was a witness.
The date is 18 May 1848 but we also have in one of the other documents 8th February1852, which seemed like a marriage document which states Melania was 27 and in l 1824 also Melania`s birth in April.
April 1824Melania born
.May 1848Melania 24.Document mentioning Aloyisius
February 1852 Melania 27 .Seems like a marriage document.The dates do work out O.K.But 4 years between a baby being born and the parents marrying seems a long time.
Unless I am completely wrong there seems to be a question of the baby`s paternity.
I`ll get my son to check it out.
When I say the spelling has altered, an easy example -the word for people is now MENSEN but the days of these documents was MENSCHEN.
I really need my son to clarify things.
Viktoria.
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Viktoria...Here is the document concerning Johannes.
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This one is in French and concerns Petronille Therese Van CAUWENBERGH.
It says naissance which is birth in French
The ink is very pale and when enlarged not very clear.
I`ll get on to it.Viktoria.
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Viktoria...I found another document (actually 3 attachments) that must tell quite a story...but as usual, I have a language barrier. Please help! Or maybe others may want to help.
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Woodworker22. I am going away for a little while to attend a funeral.
Not a long train journey but as I don`t drive Iam reliant on public transport to get me from the nearest big town to the remote village.
However public transport means the school bus and some schools will have broken up for Easter so no buses in the mornings or teatime.
Funeral at 10-30 so taxi there and taxi back to the town to hotel.
I may stay a few days,having paid for the rail travel,if my return half of ticket can be changed.
So I will be out of circulation for some little while.
Just to complicate matters my grandson is travelling up to stay at my house but I will be away of course, it is no real trouble but I can`t just close everything down as if no one was here.
I`ll have to make something to be here for him and G.grandson when they come and"childproof " the house.He is 22months and into everything.I am sorry I will be gone before they arrive.
I will do my best when I get back but there are some Rootschatters with an excellent grasp of French so perhaps one of them might be of assistance. I am not making excuses but just letting you know I can`t find time to look at the new documents yet. I have only glanced at the one in French. The birth certificate. Cheerio for now. Viktoria.
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Great work, Viktoria. I only know modern Dutch/Flemish and the handwriting is difficult to read.
As far as I make out, this is a confirmation that first marriage banns have been posted.
I can add a couple of details to yours:
- the date is the 8th of february, 1852, second Sunday of the month.
- we, Eduardus Van Roie Schefs, witness to what will be stated, and civil servant (clerk/registrar) Van den Corgerly(?) Kess of Bornhem, district of Mechelen, Province of Antwerp, ....??
...
... for the most notable ... old town hall at 11 o' clock in the morning, for the first time declared that ...<the state of?> of marriage will be entered into before us between Jacobus van Cauwenbergh, servant, 30 years old, born in and a resident of Oppuurs, lawful and and adult son of Joanna Dorothea Kerremand (?), both deceased at Oppuurs ...., and
Melania de Prins, handworker, ..., 27 years old, born in and resident of Bornhem, lawful and adult daughter of ..lus/..lies de Prins, deceased at Bornhem, and of (also Bornhem resident) Maria Antonia Gillis, handworker of old silk.
This announcement has been made known by posting it on the door of the town hall read aloud.
....
The writing is a bit difficult and also Flemish spelling altered after this date.
This is what I can see so far :-
The year 1852 in the month of February ,at the latter end and a Sunday---Eduard van Roie---the parish of Bornhem,the parish of Mechelen(Malines)Antwerp.-----at eleven before midday-------
of marriage, Jacobus van Cauwenbergh, 30 years ,born and living-------of age and the son of
Johannes Nicholas van Cauwenbergh and Johanna Dorothea (Kowers)of Bornhem and----- Maria
Anastassia Gillis,a hand worker in silk.--
Perhaps there is something to help you. I`ll try again tomorrow. V.
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Haha, great story! I vividly remember making similar errors when I moved to NL 40 years ago. I could ask for simple things in shops/restaurants but any follow-up questions and options left me completely stumped. I ended up just answering "yes" to everying.
Mike
I made errors when I lived there but got by alright ,once asking for sardines without fur and legs when I meant without skin and bones ;D
Cheerio,viktoria.
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I managed to work out some info from the first xxx pdf:
The year 1852, 18 february at 2 oclock in the afternoon, before us Edwardus Van Roie Schepen en delegated civil servant (clerk/registrar) Yve (?) den Courgerly ten Staet of the village/town of Bornhem, district of Mechelen, province of Antwerp, are gathered in our town hall: Jacobus Van Couwenbergh, servant, resident of Oppuurs and born there the 26th June 18 1821, lawful, adult son of Joannes Sievlaer van Couenbergh, deceased at Oppuurs on the 9th of March 18 1825, and Joanna Dorothea Kerremans also deceased at Oppuurs on the the 25th June 1826.
Seen here the proof of
And Melania de Prins, handworker, resident of this community (town/village) and born here on the 26th of April 1824, lawful and adult daughter of Paulus De Prins., deceased at Bornhem on 26th May 1832.
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Seen here from Marie Antonia Gillies...
(to be continued yyyy.2 and zzzz.2)
There are some very specific dates mentioned. I hope they help.
Mike
Viktoria...I found another document (actually 3 attachments) that must tell quite a story...but as usual, I have a language barrier. Please help! Or maybe others may want to help.
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Thanks Mike,one problem was the documents came up so small and when enlarging them they were bigger than the screen so I could only see half at a time then reduce,move over and enlarge,get to the right hand side get an idea of what that said.
Often the sense of course carried over to the next line.
Thewriting is not easy to read but what wonderful documents to have,and I quite understand why Woodworker 22 would like to know exactly what was written.I certainly would
The "jargonese " is largly adding nothing but the bare bones give dates ,names and places so quite a good bit of info.
I would have found it a tiny bit easier had the documents come in date order,more sense would have appeared but It may have not been obvious as the dates were written,not in numbers.
I will have to leave it for little while which must be frustrating for Woodworker.
Did you get the sense that Melania was not married when Aloyisius was born,as the wedding was about 4 years later but as Belgian women don`t lose their maiden names that does confuse matters.
I`ll try again when I get back, attending a funeral and having to travel there and stay so a few
days `til I try again.
Thanks again Mike.Viktoria.
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Hi Viktoria,
Yes the documents were long and difficult to read. My eyes glazed over quickly ;). I had the advantage of Photoshop so that I could zoom in and out quickly and also improve the contrast. I'll attach the images just in case you're interested.
And yes it seems they were married 4 years after Aloyisius was born. The last page page does explicitly state that the child was born to them ('van hun geboren is').
This is what I've made of the three pages:
The year 1852, 18 february at 2 oclock in the afternoon, before us Edwardus Van Roie Schepen en delegated civil servant (clerk/registrar) Yve (?) den Courgerly ten Staet of the village/town of Bornhem, district of Mechelen, province of Antwerp, are gathered in our town hall: Jacobus Van Couwenbergh, servant, resident of Oppuurs and born there the 26th June 18 1821, lawful, adult son of Joannes Sievlaer van Couenbergh, deceased at Oppuurs on the 9th of March 18 1825, and Joanna Dorothea Kerremans also deceased at Oppuurs on the the 25th June 1826.
Seen here the proof of
And Melania de Prins, handworker, resident of this community (town/village) and born here on the 26th of April 1824, lawful and adult daughter of Paulus De Prins., deceased at Bornhem on 26th May 1832.
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Seen here from Marie Antonia Gillies, hadwerker, 61 years old and a resident of this municipality here, currently giving permission in the marriage of her daughter on behalf of the parents,
(legal)
That the marriage Banns have been posted on the door of the town hall and also announced on the Sundays of 8 and 15 of this month February at 11 o clock in the morning. No objections to the marriage have been submitted and given his authority
(legal_
That Jacobus van Cauwenbergh and Melania Deprins are united by marriage.
Together with this (event? Registration?) it, is clear that a child of the male sex was born to them ...(legal)
registered in this municipality on 13th May 1848 under number 33 with the Surname and Christian Name De Prins, Aloysius, who they recognise as their lawful son.
Names of witnesses:
Carolus Vorleysen , writer (or clerk), 55 years old
Carolus Ludovicus Van Guets, glassmaker, 22 years old
Petrus Roels, shopkeeper (?), 48 years old
Joanna Van Lukess, Fishseller, 62 years old
All 4
residents of Bornhem.
. (legal)
Thanks Mike,one problem was the documents came up so small and when enlarging them they were bigger than the screen so I could only see half at a time then reduce,move over and enlarge,get to the right hand side get an idea of what that said.
Often the sense of course carried over to the next line.
Thewriting is not easy to read but what wonderful documents to have,and I quite understand why Woodworker 22 would like to know exactly what was written.I certainly would
The "jargonese " is largly adding nothing but the bare bones give dates ,names and places so quite a good bit of info.
I would have found it a tiny bit easier had the documents come in date order,more sense would have appeared but It may have not been obvious as the dates were written,not in numbers.
I will have to leave it for little while which must be frustrating for Woodworker.
Did you get the sense that Melania was not married when Aloyisius was born,as the wedding was about 4 years later but as Belgian women don`t lose their maiden names that does confuse matters.
I`ll try again when I get back, attending a funeral and having to travel there and stay so a few
days `til I try again.
Thanks again Mike.Viktoria.
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Viktoria's right. It's a document confirming the birth of Melania. This is the info:
In the year 1824 on the 20th of April at 3 o clock in the afternoon, before us
Joannes Bryd Shepene, an officer of this municipality Bornhem
., District of Mechelen, Province of Antwerp, (witness?) Paulus Deprins, <occupation unreadable> 32 years old, resident of this municipality
has a child of the feminine sex, born today at 5 o clock in the morning to Maria Anna Gillis, 30 years old.
.
Declared to want to give the child the Christian name of Melania.
(legal)
Please help....Here is one more document to help validate Melanie DePrins as my ancestor. I wish I had the skills to translate this myself.
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Mike, Viktoria and others...Thanks for your hard work on my documents. Your knowledge greatly improved and added to my family tree. I hope you all will be available to help me in the future as I continue to work on my Belgian ancestry. By the way...you broke the wall for me.