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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: MacGrigor on Tuesday 13 March 18 10:11 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
I have just found a medal roll card for my great-grandad, Alexander McGregor. He was a private in the Middlesex Regiment during the Great War. He was born in 1895, in Hornsey, to Alexander and Helen Sarah MacGregor before the family name change. I know little of his service other than the battalions he served in. The card has some sort of reference to the medal he was awarded and appears to be linked to some other reference book. Can anyone use this to find out any more about his military service?
Thanks,
Adam
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What you have is his Medal Index Card - with the emphasis on Index!
These cards combined the info from various Regimental Rolls (which are the references listed) into a single entry.
There may be a little more information on the Rolls, but not a lot :-\
He doesn't have either the 1914 Star or the 1915 Star, which shows that he enlisted in 1916 or later.
The other 2 medals showed that he did serve abroad.
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So which medals did he receive and would they have likely been for combat? He served in France but I don't know what he did.
His rank is listed as 'PW' here - presumably Public Works - but he is listed as a private on one record held by the National Archives. Is there a reason for this? And does Public Works mean a soldier or something else?
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As referred to already, the references are to the Middlesex British War and Victory medal roll, in his case WO 95/1492, which shows he served overseas in 18th, 3/10th and 4th Battalions Middlesex in that order. The PW prefix does indeed mean Public Works Battalions of the Middlesex, the 18th was one such and this shows he started in that battalion and retained the same number in the other battalions. He went overseas after the end of 1915.
MaxD
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Didn't answer your other query. The role of PW battalions is explained here http://www.wartimememoriesproject.com/greatwar/allied/battalion.php?pid=6719
We can't tell from his roll entry when he left 18th Battalion but in any event, the other battalions he went to were straightforward fighting units.
MaxD
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Thanks for all that! I guess I'll never be able to find out everything what with the scarcity of information. At least know I know that he enlisted after 1916 in addition to the battalions he served in.
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Seeing as the 18th Battalion was 'raised in London on the 19th of January 1915' and this was his first battalion, would this have been roughly when he joined the battalion or could he have enlisted later?
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I'd suggest not. Had he joined right at the beginning of the formation of the unit, he would have gone to France with them in November. Really difficult to know when he joined them. To be accurate, the 18th Battalion was his first overseas battalion, medal rolls etc do not show battalions served in in UK so training in a training battalion at home followed by movement to France after end 1915 is the most likely. Remember it was 1916 that conscription came in and end 1915 that the Derby scheme was introduced both of which would have got him in late 1915 or 1916.
MaxD
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Thank you very much!
I have two more questions:
1) What areas of Middlesex would members of the 18th have been from
And
2) Are there any other documents I can search for for any clues to his service?
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The area of London where the battalion had its depot at the very beginning of its existence was Alexandra Park Racecourse in central north London so many would have been from that area. However, suitable recruits would be sent there from anywhere, a newspaper report from Aberdeen in March 1915 notes one recruit to the 18th. Certainly later in 1915 and into 1916, the army simply put people where they were needed so it doesn't follow that the Middlesex Regiment was full of Middlesex men although being born in Hornsey puts him very near.
To get a feel for his war, you could look at the battalion war diaries although the only one for which we have a start date is the 18th. That can be downloaded for £3.50 at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353815
As we have no indication of when he left the 18th and served in the later two battalions, I am not sure what would be gained by looking at those which are at:
3/10th http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352155 (not overseas until June 1917)
4th http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354085 (from July 1916)
It is highly unlikely that you will find him mentioned by name in any of them.
The only documents that have survived are the medal records, some 70% of detailed service records were lost in WW2.
MaxD
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Thank you very much! Your help has been invaluable.
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I should have said that if you have an Ancestry sub, the war diaries are there and I can direct you to them.
MaxD
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I think one kind user searched the war diaries and couldn't find any individual mention, but it would be interesting. Sadly I don't know where he was when or indeed whom he was with.
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Also, how big was the Middlesex Regiment in WW1 in terms of men? And are there any figures about the 18th battalion, 3/10th battalion and 4th battalion?
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This link gives you the establishment figures:
http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/definitions-of-units/what-was-a-battalion-of-infantry/
This link gives you the number of battalions in the regiment
http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/the-duke-of-cambridges-own-middlesex-regiment/
multiply one by the other to get a ball park figure although the reserve battalions and those home service only had fewer men.
When 18th Battalion disembarked in France they numbered 29 officers, 1 Medical Officer, 1 Chaplain and 977 other ranks. Clearly numbers fluctuated throughout.
4th on arrival in France had 31 officers, 1076 other ranks, 58 horses and an additional 254 men "blistered on".
Haven't got a figure for the 3/10th but you get the idea.
I recommend http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/ - a superb mine of information of all sorts about the Great War.
MaxD
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Having read a military history of the 18th battalion (1st public works) it states that the battalion ‘arrived on the Somme in early July 1916 and took part in the fighting between Bazentin and High Wood in July and August 1916.‘ Did the battalion fight, despite being a pioneer battalion primarily? Or does it just mean that the battalion was present? I’d assume they were all trained with weapons.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/somme1916.wordpress.com/2015/12/16/middlesex-regiment-on-the-somme/amp/
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Pioneer battalions were first and foremost fighting men with particular skills in road building entrenching and demolition (Source No Labour No battle). Skimming the battalion war diary for Jul/August 1916 they seem to have spent most of the time on their pioneer work which the history may well have legitimately classed as "took part in the fighting". You'd be best advised to read the diary which is very detailed. National Archives at:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353815 also to be found on Ancestry if you have a sub.
MaxD
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Thanks MaxD! I’ll take a look now.
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Found a book specifically about the 18th Battalion which states in the product description:
‘At times they fought back the Germans with only their picks and shovels, and in High Wood, at the height of the Battle of the Somme, they were deployed to fight the enemy at bayonet point.’
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Miners-Pals-Battalion-War-Middlesex/dp/1784620343/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1545765239&sr=8-2&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=18th+battalion+middlesex&dpPl=1&dpID=51UDPfBsjQL&ref=plSrch