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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Surrey => Topic started by: pomp on Tuesday 13 March 18 21:01 GMT (UK)
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Hi all
Having bottomed out my grandmother’s line, time to turn my attention to my grandad, George Herbert Williams. This is what I have:
George Herbert Williams born 1912 in Epsom
Parents: George Williams and Viola Gladys Edwards
George senior was a jockey and spent some time in the army in WWI
My grandad George Herbert Williams was brought by his Grandad, George Edward Williams. We have in the family a letter which he wrote, which I will summarise here. For simplicity I’m going to call George Herbert my grandad GH, George my great grandfather G and George Edward my great-great grandfather GE (to try stop any confusion).
GH was brought up by his grandfather GE so he knew him well.
GE’s mother was Miss Morman, whose father was the coachman to Earl Bathurst in Gloucestershire.
GE was the illegitimate son of Miss Morman and the Earl.
Miss Morman, known as Polly, received money from the estate and there was an enduring close relationship (but not marriage) with the Earl.
GE left home as a youth and walked to London, getting a job in a hotel where the previous person was called Williams, which is where our family name is reputed to have come from.
GH was brought up south of the Thames by GE.
I’d like to follow my Grandfather's line back to see where they lead, if anyone can help. Incidentally my GtGt Grandad GH was known as Pomp and hence my nom de plume here
Regards
Pomp
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So:
George Herbert Williams mmn Edwards, birth reg Sep qtr 1912 Epsom.
Did his mother die young?
Gladys Viola Williams aged 21, Jun qtr 1914 Epsom.
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Possibly connected to Gladys’ death:
Birth reg: Violet Williams mmn Edwards, Jun qtr 1914 Epsom.
Death reg: Violet Williams aged 0, Jun qtr 1914 Epsom.
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That sounds right, she may have died as a result of child birth which is why GH was brought up by GE and wife
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In addition to the original post this is what I know of George Edward:
He was born 1855ish (Gloucester area) Mother Miss Morman
Lived to be over 100.
He was a billiard player.
Died 1955+
Had many children
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George Williams married Viola G Edwards, Mar qtr 1911 Croydon - so you should be able to find them as newlyweds in the 1911 census.
Free index suggests he is 22 b Brixton and she is 19 b Cardiff.
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George Williams married Viola G Edwards, Mar qtr 1911 Croydon - so you should be able to find them as newlyweds in the 1911 census.
Free index suggests he is 22 b Brixton and she is 19 b Cardiff.
Can I post the 1911 extract here, is that controlled by copyright?
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Don’t post the image, or copy & paste someone else’s transcription, but you can post your own transcription of it if you wish.
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1911 Census 102/2961
259 Hook Road Epsom
William Edwards, Head, Married, 43 b. 1868, Roggett Monmouth, Asylum attendant
Mary Jane, Wife, 46 b. 1865Collingborne Wilts
George Williams, Boarder, 22 b.1889, Brixton London, Stable help
Viola Gladys Williams, Boarder, 19 b.1892, Cardiff
Lilian Mary Edwards, Dau, 16 b.1895, Cardiff, Dom gen servant
William Edwards, Son, 15 b. 1896, Cardiff
Henry George, Son, 11 b.1900, Luton Surrey, school
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Good stuff.
Going back 10 yrs you should find George E Williams 45, waiter b Tetbury Gloucestershire, in Camberwell with wife Mary J (46 b Merthyr Tydfil) and children Edith 20, Elizabeth 19, Edward 15, Hannah 13, George 12 and Herbert 8.
1901 census ref: RG13/502/91/33.
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Hello again :)
There is more than one George Williams b Brixton but there is this one - still trying to work out the generations
1901 502/91/33
42 Landells Rd Camberwell
George E Williams 45 yrs a Waiter b Tebbury, Gloucestershire (Tetbury?)
Mary J Williams 45 yrs
Edith Williams 20 yrs
Elizabeth Williams 19 yrs
Edward Williams 15 yrs
Hannah Williams 13 yrs
George Williams 12 yrs b Brixton
Herbert Williams 6 yrs
Snap :)
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It’s about to get to the complicated bit :)
An online tree of the better-looking variety says that George E Williams was born 22 February 1856 in Tetbury as George William Bullock Moreman, son of Emily Moreman, and that the 5yr old George W Moreman in Cirencester in the 1861 census (grandson of John & Rachel) is him.
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It’s about to get to the complicated bit :)
An online tree of the better-looking variety says that George E Williams was born 22 February 1856 in Tetbury as George William Bullock Moreman, son of Emily Moreman, and that the 5yr old George W Moreman in Cirencester in the 1861 census (grandson of John & Rachel) is him.
Do you have a link?
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Anyway, it’s sensible to take things step by step.
George Edward Williams married Mary Jane Thomas, Sep qtr 1877 Stafford.
Perhaps it’s his wife who was Polly (usually a pet name for Mary), rather than his mother?
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It’s about to get to the complicated bit :)
An online tree of the better-looking variety says that George E Williams was born 22 February 1856 in Tetbury as George William Bullock Moreman, son of Emily Moreman, and that the 5yr old George W Moreman in Cirencester in the 1861 census (grandson of John & Rachel) is him.
Do you have a link?
Ancestry public tree:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/23276556/person/1369825368/facts
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I'm not a member of Ancestry - I'm with Findmypast - so I can't access. Not to worry, this is moving fast!
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“Lived to be over 100”
George Edward Williams died 27 October 1956 aged “102” - abode was 250 Whitehorse Lane, South Norwood, Surrey. (If the birth info is right then he was in fact 100 rather than 102).
Probate of his estate of some £686 was granted to his son Herbert.
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“Lived to be over 100”
George Edward Williams died 27 October 1956 aged “102” - abode was 250 Whitehorse Lane, South Norwood, Surrey. (If the birth info is right then he was in fact 100 rather than 102).
Probate of his estate of some £686 was granted to his son Herbert.
This is impressive!
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1891 Census
RG12/407/112/13
Brighton Terrace Lambeth
George E Williams, Hd, 35 b.1856, Gloucestershire, Hotel servant
Mary J, 35 b.1856,
Edith, 10 b.1881, Brixton
Elizabeth, 9 b.1882
Alfred,7 b.1884, Brixton
Edward, 5 b.1886, Brixton
Hannah, 3 b.1888, Brixton
George, 2 b.1889, Brixton
Charles A H Howard, 28 b.1863, Gloucestershire, Hotel Servant
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Hi does the tree give any indication of what became of his mother Emily?
As I believe that possibly Rachel was a new wife of John Moreman, and that Emily was b c 1831 Cirencester, and in 1851 is a General Servant in a very "Posh" household?!
Census ref HO1071961/239/2
Keyboard86
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By 1871 Emily (37 b Cirencester) is the wife of John Howard (40 b Nantwich) in Painswick.
Their household includes “nephew” George Williams, 15 b Tetbury as well as a (genuine) niece, Julia Moreman, 19 b Cirencester.
1871 ref: RG10/2630/64/4.
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Someone else has researched the family here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=279449.0
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Wow that’s interesting - I wonder who. Should I take it as gospel?
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Wow that’s interesting - I wonder who. Should I take it as gospel?
Never ever take someone else’s research as gospel. Not unless they take you through the documents step by step, anyway, demonstrating their sources and the inferences drawn from them. It’s useful to give you leads for your own investigations though, with help here if you want it.
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Hi does the tree give any indication of what became of his mother Emily?
As I believe that possibly Rachel was a new wife of John Moreman, and that Emily was b c 1831 Cirencester, and in 1851 is a General Servant in a very "Posh" household?!
Census ref HO1071961/239/2
Keyboard86
Posh household - yes I suppose it is! She’s one of several servants in the household of (Captain) George H. Mason, Governor of the County Jail in Gloucester
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;D So when and if, was her father John a "Coachman" to Earl Bathurst?
Keyboard
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Wow that’s interesting - I wonder who. Should I take it as gospel?
The person in the other thread shares your grandfather
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=258986.
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;D So when and if, was her father John a "Coachman" to Earl Bathurst?
Keyboard
Yes I wonder what the basis of the reputed Bathurst link is.
And why young George got “Bullock” as a middle name?
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GE left home as a youth and walked to London, getting a job in a hotel where the previous person was called Williams, which is where our family name is reputed to have come from.
This bit (about the name) doesn’t look right - he is already called George Williams in his mother and stepfather’s (Howard) household in 1871 aged 15.
Also - walked to London looks unlikely - and if we have the right marriage it took place in Staffs in 1877.
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At the time of George’s conception, the incumbent Earl Bathurst was the never-married 4th Earl, Henry George Bathurst (1790-1866). His country residence was Oakley Park, Cirencester.
William Lennox Bathurst (1791-1878), his brother, succeeded him as the 5th Earl, and also never married.
He was succeeded on his death by his nephew the 6th Earl, Allen Alexander Bathurst (b 1832) who is identified on the Ancestry tree as the reputed father of George. But how I wonder has any such link been established? He was born in London, baptised in Cirencester in 1832, went to Eton and Cambridge (MA 1853), became MP for Cirencester in 1857, married in Cheshire in 1862. So he did have links to Cirencester, but still... ??? In the 1850s he was neither the Earl nor yet the heir apparent.
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Just passing through, I did not see the details posted ;D
The Staffordshire marriage took place at St Thomas's church, Castletown 14 August 1877
George Edward Williams-full age-bachelor-Billiard Marker(?)-abode Castletown-father William Williams occ Auctioneer.
Mary Jane Thomas-full age-spinster-abode Castletown-father Thomas Maurice Thomas occ Agent
wit George Parker & Emily Eliza Parker