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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: casjsa on Saturday 17 March 18 07:20 GMT (UK)
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My great grandfather Charles Seymour Allan was born in Lanarkshire to John Brackenburn Allan. After emigrating to Australia he changed his surname to Seymour-Allan although we're not entirely certain why. Born in Lanarkshire, the family moved to Bognor Regis early 1900s. I am trying to trace Charles' father John if anyone has any information?
Thank you,
Cas
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There is no birth in the index at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk of a Charles Seymour Allan, and there is no marriage of a John Brackenburn Allan in the indexes in Scotland or in England and Wales according to the transcription at https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl. Nor can I find any Allans born in Scotland in Bognor in the 1911 census.
When was Charles born? When did he emigrate? When you say 'in the early 1900s', do you mean before or after 1911? I see that the Australian press reported a marriage of Charles Seymour-Allan in 1894. Is this your one? What more do you know about these people?
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Hi Cas
Welcome to RC :)
The only things I can see so far as possibles are as follows:
There was a John BRACKENRIDGE Allan born in Glasgow c. 1800 to Ebenezer Allan and Mary Brackenridge.
John shows in London in later years and marries there in 1840 to a Margaret Kellar, also from Glasgow. He was a silk mercer by trade and seems to have done well from it. He died in 1868.
From the children they had, there is a Charles born in 1853 in London. As Forfarian asked above, what birth year do you estimate for Charles? He is in Scotland with mother's family in 1871 and with mother in London in 1881 and that is the last ref I can see so far for him in the UK. He showed as an Engineer and Mechanical Manufacturer Practical Engineer (sounds intense!) in his 1881 census entry.
Can't easily see any reference to Seymour in this line so far.
Where does the reference to Bognor Regis come from?
Monica :)
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Welcome from me as well :)
After looking at online trees which list a marriage for Charles to Mary Eveleen Perkins in 1894 in Queensland and Charles dying in Oct 1901 age 44 in Brighton (newspaper notice in Aus) I wonder if this is the family in 1901 with Charles listed as an Engineer which could tie into the Charles that Monica found :-\ https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9XJ-9M3
Kay
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There are numerous shipping entries for a Charles S Allan born c. 1853-4 (London shows in some as a reference) through the 1880s to at least early 1890s. This Charles shows as an 2nd Chief Engineer. A number of the entries are arrivals at Sydney NSW.
Just adding now some links for ref if needed from Family Search. You need to be signed on to view (free to register):
Birth https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2NDT-82F
1861 Census https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2M2-JJRR
1881 Census https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q279-FB95
Monica
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Thanks Kay. There is the ref to Bognor Regis and Scotland :-\ I can only see the London born Charles so far...
Monica
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There is a death of a Charles Allan, aged 44, registered in Brighton in 1901, December quarter. No middle name or initial.
Also a birth of Mary Patrick Joseph Charles Allan, male, mother's surname Perkins, in Richmond, Surrey in the June quarter of 1897!
And there's a Mary Jerome, birth registered in Westhampnett in the March quarter of 1899 according to FreeBMD, but not in the GRO index so I don't know if male or female and can't verify the mother's surname.
There was another child, Arthur Henry, born and died in 1896, birth and death registered in Kingston, Surrey.
Noting the use of the name Mary, were they Roman Catholic?
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There is a death of a Charles Allan, aged 44, registered in Brighton in 1901, December quarter. No middle name or initial.
That is his death, Forfarian.
The Sydney Morning Herald had this death notice on 19 November 1901:
....October 1 at Brighton England, after a short illness, Charles Seymour-Allan, aged 44, son of the late J B Allan and son in law of the late Patrick Perkins of Brisbane
Monica
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Noting the use of the name Mary, were they Roman Catholic?
Charles' wife was Mary Eveline, although in the 1901 she showed under her middle name it seems. The marriage notice from 21 Nov 1894 in Sydney Morning Herald read:
SEYMOUR-ALLAN—PERKINS.—November 21, at St. Stephen's Cathedral, Brisbane, by the Rev. D. Fouhy, Administrator of the Diocese, assisted by the Rev. John McKiernan, Charles, son of the late John Brackenbridge Seymour-Allan, England, to Mary
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Thank you for replying. Mary Eveleen is my great grandmother. I am a Seymour-Allan also. I'm looking for information about Charles' parents.
Mary Eveleens's father was Patrick (Paddy) Perkins, founder of XXXX beer and MLA for Aubigny in Queensland in the 1890s. I have the Perkins down pat since they emigrated to Australia from Tipperary in 1853. Now trying to find the scots side, the Allans. :)
Cas
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Another time, it's a good idea to tell us everything you already know, so that helpful people don't spend time and effort duplicating what you have already found.
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Thank you. My topic is John Brackenburn Allan though. He is the person I'm trying to find information on. :)
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Oh, my apologies, I'm only new to this forum and I didn't see the first page. Monica, you've hit the nail on the head about John marrying a Kellar. A silk merchant? WOW! Thank you so much, I will relay this information to my mother who does the research.
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John Brackenridge Allan died in Hackney in the December quarter of 1868, aged 68. I don't see a baptism for him (or any siblings), but Ebenezer Allan married Mary Brekenridge in Barony parish on 31 March 1793.
I had a look in some of the Glasgow Post Office directories around 1800, but if Ebenezer is listed, it's not in any of the ones I looked at. Nor does he seem to have left a will.
The 1861 census describes John B Allan as a silk mercer. The 1851 says merchant and gives his and his wife's place of birth as Glasgow. Have failed to find him in 1841.
Have you got a copy of his marriage certificate? The index lists him as John Breckinnage Allan.
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Monica, re your questions.
Charles Allan is my great grandfather. He came to Australia somewhere in the 1890s and married my great grandmother Mary Eveleen Perkins in 1895 in St Stephens church in Brisbane (I live near Brisbane now). Somewhere along the line he changed his name. I believe he was christened Charles Seymour Allan and we THINK what happened was the newspapers of the time joined his middle name with his surname so he became Charles Seymour-Allan. He was an engineer and invented an "underwater vessel" something like a submarine. I am by birth a Seymour-Allan too. We know Charles and Mary Eveleen traveled from Brisbane to Bognor Regis to visit his parents somewhere between 1895 and 1901. Charles died before they returned to Brisbane. Mary Eveleen came back here with two sons, my grandfather John Gerome, and his brother Patrick, who died as a result of mustard gas in WW1. Both were born in Bognor Regis.
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That is his death, Forfarian.
Yes. I looked it up after Kay99 said it was in an Australian newspaper.
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Thank you Forfarian, this is news also. I'm so pleased I found this forum. I haven't seen Breckinnage before. Considering the education standards of the time I take spellings with a grain of salt of course. My mother MAY have a marriage certificate. It appears from your research that our information of Charles returning to Bognor to visit his parents might be wrong unless his mother was still alive. We know he was 37 when he married Mary Eveleen in 1895, she was 28. So he would have been born 1858 which is within the lifetime of John.
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We know Charles and Mary Eveleen traveled from Brisbane to Bognor Regis to visit his parents somewhere between 1895 and 1901.
As his father died in 1868, they may have visited his mother but could not have visited both of his parents.
Mary Eveleen came back here with two sons, my grandfather John Gerome, and his brother Patrick, who died as a result of mustard gas in WW1. Both were born in Bognor Regis.
See above. Patrick's birth was registered in Surrey, where his parents were living in 1901. Only Jerome, whose birth was registered as Mary Jerome, was born in Bognor.
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We know he was 37 when he married Mary Eveleen in 1895, she was 28. So he would have been born 1858 which is within the lifetime of John.
You know that he claimed to be 37 when he married.
The evidence from the births index and the census is that he was born in 1853. His birth was registered in the City of London in 1853, September quarter, and the 1861 census says that he was 7, which exactly matches the date of registration of the birth. Similarly the 1881 says he was 27.
The 1901 says he was 45, which, if correct, would have put his birth in 1855/1856, but it also says he was born in Glasgow, which we know is incorrect. He was a year younger, only 44, by the time of his death later that year, which would, if correct, have put his birth in 1856/1857.
So his track record in working out how old he was is not very good. He was in fact 42 when he got married.
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John Brackenridge Allan had at least 9 siblings born between 1794 -1814. John's birth or christening is showing as being on 23 Nov 1800. He shows as the 5th child born to this couple in the registers.
I think one of his siblings, Ebenezer b. 1797, like the father, called his daugther born in 1841 Margaret Keller Allan, using the name of his brother John B's wife likely.
These details all show on the free to view index on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk Free to register on SP, you only have to buy credits to view the original images.
Monica
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Ebenezer Allan, brother to JB shows in London for 1861 in a related occupation https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2M2-BZ4Q
On the topic of censuses, this looks to be JB and wife Margaret in 1851 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGTC-YSR With JB's death in 1868, there is only one more census outstanding for him which is that of 1841.
Monica
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Margaret Allan, widow, aged 69, born Lanarkshire, was in the 1891 census in Hastings, with her daughter Sophia C Allan, aged 42.
There's a death of a Margaret Allan, aged 78, in Chertsey in 1900. The Calendar of Probate says Allan Margaret of Eddlewood Weybridge Surrey widow died 20 October 1900. Probate London 27 November to Florence Black Allan spinster. Effects £7880 13s 6d, Re-sworn Aug 1901 £9424 19s 9d.
It looks as if Sophia C died in London in 1910, age given as 60. The Calendar of Probate lists Allan Sophia Coleman of Endlsiegh Exmouth Devonshire spinster died 2 July 1910. Probate London 30 August to Florence Black Allan spinster. Effects £12,468 19s 6d. Re-sworn £11,391 17s 9d.
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There is also a will showing in the probate calendar for J B Allan in 1868. (This may well be worth purchasing to confirm connections). He died 18 Dec 1868 at Newington Hall Stoke Newington - executors named being Margaret,his widow, Alexander his son and George Bland Frost.
His marriage to Margaret Keller was by licence in 1840 ( Sept 12 in St Benit Pauls Wharf) names his father as Ebenezer who was a teacher but also states he was a widower.
There are also Freedom of the City of London Papers for him - one dated 20th Dec 1838 gives his age as 35 and confirms his father as Ebenezer late of Glasgow deceased and a teacher.
Appears to have been a son from first marriage as a further Freedom of the City of London Paper dated 13 Dec 1848 refers to John Allan son of John Breckinridge Allan of 69 St Paul's Churchyard, linen draper.
William
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John Brackenridge's father Ebenezer Allan married Mary Brackenridge 1793. Ebenezer Allan born 1766. Can't find HIS (Ebenezer's) parents now. There were two Ebenezers, because Ebenezer born 1766 had a son Ebenezer born 1797. Elder Ebenezer and Mary had TEN children OML. John was #5 There were four boys and six girls. Good grief !
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/K4VX-STZ
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William, so you're saying John Brackenridge was married twice? First wife died? There was a son, John Allan, with the first wife? Then Margaret Kellar was his second wife? I haven't heard of Alexander either. What a can of worms!
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John Brackenridge's father Ebenezer Allan married Mary Brackenridge 1793. Ebenezer Allan born 1766.
Don't make the mistake of assuming that just because there's only one likely-looking candidate in the records, it has to be the right one. It's very probably the right one, but you can't be 100% sure there's not another one whose birth or baptism record, if it ever existed, has not survived.
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Yes he seems to have married twice - his age on marriage cert is given as 37 while Margaret was 18. Her father is named as Alexander Kellar, merchant.
Now just to complicate matters further there is this marriage Oct 13 1849 Camberwell
John Allan of full age bachelor mercer Father John Brakenridge Allan mercer
Jane Kellar under age with consent of parents spinster Father Alexander Kellar Gentleman.
So it would appear that there are some Kellar connections to disentangle as well.
This is, I think, John and Jane in 1851 living in Lambeth
John Allan Head 26 Linen draper silk mercer b Glasgow
Jane Allan wife 21 b Glasgow
John Allan son 8 months b Surrey Brixton
This suggests that John Brackenridge's first marriage was probably in Glasgow.
London Gazette has this in 1846
Notice is hereby given that the Partnership lately subsisting between us the undersigned John Brackenridge Allan John Allan and David Ritchie of Saint Paul's Church yard in the city of London drapers and silk mercers carrying on business as Allan Son and Ritchie was this day dissolved...will henceforth be carried on by the said John Brackenridge Allan and John Allan.
William
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Re Alexander Kellar there is a will showing under this name dated 1/7/1851 - silk mercer,residing in Saint Andrew's Square Glasgow spouse of Jean Colquhoun or Gray or Kellar widow of Thomas Gray - Type Anti nuptial contract of marriage with spouse and her last will and testament and codicil.
Marriage Alexander Kellar and Jean Colquhoun 19 Sept 1841 in Glasgow.
Alexander himself did not die until 1880 in Hamilton - there is a will and inventory for him on Scotland's People " sometime merchant of Glasgow,afterwards residing in Hamilton d 17/03/1880 at Hamilton, testate.
This marriage notice in the Caledonian Mercury 17 Sept 1840 " In St Bennets Church London on the 2th current by special licence J. B Allan Esq,merchant St Paul's Churchyard, to Miss Margaret Kellar eldest daughter of Alexander Kellar Esq,merchant, St Andrew Square."
London Evening Standard 16 Oct 1849 has this
On the 13th inst at St Paul's Herne Hill John Allan Jun of St Paul's Churchyard to Jane, youngest daughter of Alexander Kellar Esq. of Glasgow.
William
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FreeCEN for 1841 has at St Andrews Square, Glasgow a houshold consisting of Jane Kellar, 11; John Kellar, 6 and Mary Dallas, 20.
1851 has Alexander Kellar, 57, retired silk merchant, born Glasgow, with wife Jane, 60, born Glasgow and a servant.
There's a baptism of John Russell Kellar, son of Alexander Kellar and Jean Cousin, their 8th child, baptised in Barony on 16 October 1835, who would be in his 6th year on the date of the 1841 census. I don't see the first 7 baptisms in the SP indexes, or a marriage of Alexander Kellar to Jean Cousin.
Alexander's death certificate should of course tell you the names of his first wife and his parents, including his mother's maiden surname.
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There are the following births
Jean Keelar Parents Alexander Keelar and Jean Cousin 20 /12/ 1829 Barony.
Alexander Keilar Parents Alexander Keilar and Jean Couzin 12 Aug 1818 Barony
Margaret Keillor Parents Alexander Keillor and Jean Cousin 7 March 1822 Barony
Mary Keillor Parents Alexander Keillor and Jean Cousen 12 Aug 1825 Barony
James Keillor Parents Alexander Keillor and Jean Couzen 1 Nov 1823 Barony
Alexander Keillor ParentsAlexander Keillor and Jean Cousin 30 Dec 1827 Barony
Marriage Alexander Keillor and Jean Cousen 9 Nov 1817 Barony.
William
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I must be doing something wrong.
I searched for baptisms of k*l*r with parent c*s*n, no dates, Lanarkshire. I can see that it wouldn't find the ones with z in them, but I don't understand why it didn't find the others.
But when I repeated the search just now, once with s and once with z, it found 7, and the marriage.
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1841 census, Double House, Lowndes Terrace, Westminster, household of Mark Collins, draper with numerous staff including John Allan, 15, shopman, born Scotland.
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Perthshire Advertiser 26 Dec 1839 has this death notice
On the morning of the 23rd, Mrs Alex.Kellar, 36, St Andrew Square,after a long and painful illness, which she bore with great fortitude and resignation.
Wonder if this is the death for Jean Cousins - pity the notice does not specify St Andrew Square, Glasgow.
And here is a thing - another marriage notice!
Caledonian Mercury 9 Oct 1843
At Lewisham, county of Kent, on the 28th ultimo,William Allan,Esq.,of Rotterdam, to Mary Ballantine Kellar,second daughter of Alex.Kellar,Esq.Glasgow.
The actual marriage cert states (marriage was by licence)
William Allan bachelor of full age Merchant - Father Ebenezer Allan Teacher
Mary Balantine Allan Minor Spinster - Father Alexander Allan Gent
Witnesses John Kellar and Margaret Allan.
(Had no reason to look at Dutch records before but if you search for William Allan in Netherlands records on familysearch there are quite a few results).
So quite a few Allan/Kellar connections!
William
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Good morning,
I am writing a very small book on the life of two submarine inventors and one of them is Charles Seymour Allan.
While I have found a fair bit of information on him I cannot locate his grave nor any photographs of him, although I do have an image that was from the Illustrated London News that I can publish.
Many thanks
Richard Jones
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Hi Richard
Welcome to RootsChat :)
I wondered if Charles may have been buried with his mother who died the year before. However, there is no mention of this on her memorial www.findagrave.com/memorial/188192292/margaret-allan
Monica
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Hi Richard
Welcome to RootsChat :)
I wondered if Charles may have been buried with his mother who died the year before. However, there is no mention of this on her memorial www.findagrave.com/memorial/188192292/margaret-allan
Monica
Thank you for that it certainly gives me a new lead for me to check out!