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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Breconshire => Topic started by: Brentor boy on Sunday 18 March 18 09:03 GMT (UK)
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From Free Reg baptisms:-
Sarah Smith 14 Jul 1822. St John Evangelist, Brecon AND Llanfaes Tabernacle
Joseph Smith 23 Apr 1826. St John Evangelist AND Llanfaes Tabernacle.
Can someone explain, please?
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My assumption is that Llanfaes Tabernacle is a chapel within the parish of St John Evangelist, Brecon, and that the baptisms have been entered in both registers. :-\
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Possible, but from what I can see, Llanfaes is a Welsh Wesleyan Methodist Chapel and St John is the cathedral church of the Church in Wales. Would there have been some form of inter-denominational recognition of baptisms?
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I don't know - I don't have any connections to Breconshire. However, looking at the entries on FreeREG, the Llanfaes entry is shown as "Transcription" whereas St John is shown as "Parish Register" as the source.
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Thanks, Bumble. I had noticed the distinction and assumed the baptisms had taken place at St John's but I cannot understand how reference to the event should appear in association with a non-conformist chapel - twice.
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This site says that the chapel wasn't built until 1876 ::)
http://www.coflein.gov.uk/en/site/11552/details/llanfaes-welsh-wesleyan-methodist-chapel-3-tabernacle-3-newmarch-street-brecon
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Yes, I saw that. Unfortunately there is no reference to any earlier meeting place. However to finance and justify the new building suggests to me that there was a pre-existing congregation. Anyway it's all rather academic in the context of family history.
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I would think that the only way to verify the information is to view the parish register entry. I think that these are available at West Glamorgan Records Office.
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I don't know - I don't have any connections to Breconshire. However, looking at the entries on FreeREG, the Llanfaes entry is shown as "Transcription" whereas St John is shown as "Parish Register" as the source.
This could mean that it was transcribed from an earlier register.
Just a random thought. Could it be that the parents had two different religions so felt it was important to baptise them in both churches?
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If the parents were who I think they were ( yet to be confirmed), they were both Irish, and I have traced their possible Catholic marriage in Dublin.
I did wonder if the lack of a convenient Catholic presence in Wales caused them to compromise their faith.
Just too many unanswered questions to form any firm conclusions on this one. I guess I'll just have to leave it hanging.
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I found this on a Methodist Church website:
"According to the Methodist Worship Book, baptism (or Christening) marks entry into the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, of which the Methodist Church is part. "
Maybe this explains it? I would check to see if St. John's was an overseeing church if that makes sense.
Hannah
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Thanks, that's interesting. I'll follow it up and see if it leads anywhere.
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I found this on a Methodist Church website:
"According to the Methodist Worship Book, baptism (or Christening) marks entry into the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, of which the Methodist Church is part. "
Maybe this explains it? I would check to see if St. John's was an overseeing church if that makes sense.
Hannah
All that phrase means is that the Methodists are part of the worldwide Christian community. It certainly doesn't mean they are or were subservient in any way to the Church of England.
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Thanks, John.
I understood the two churches to be independent of each other, which is why I was confused by reference to the baptisms appearing to be in the records of both.
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As I understand it, baptism is a universal rite accepted by all denominations (who baptise infants). It need not even be performed by a cleric. That makes it odder that two different churches would be asked to baptise. Could it be that the parents attended either church (strange if they were Catholics) and wanted the child to be "accepted into the congregation" of both to hedge their bets?
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As I understand it, baptism is a universal rite accepted by all denominations (who baptise infants). It need not even be performed by a cleric. That makes it odder that two different churches would be asked to baptise. Could it be that the parents attended either church (strange if they were Catholics) and wanted the child to be "accepted into the congregation" of both to hedge their bets?
Unless you actually have original records (i.e. images) for both baptisms, I would think it far more likely that it's a glitch in the online system, rather than that there were genuinely two events at separate churches on the same day. If we were discussing Family Search that would be a pretty definite conclusion because of the origins of their records; I'm more surprised if it's FreeREG but don't know enough about their systems.
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According to Genuki [not sure how reliable it is] there are two parishes St. John the Evangelist. St. Mary and St. David in Brecon. This tells you a little bit about St. John Parish http://www.blfhs.co.uk/index.php/parishes/parishes-a-b/brecon-st-john. You can find more about it http://www.streetmap.co.uk/idld.srf?X=303750&Y=229687&A=Y&Z=120&lm=1. It looks like from the maps that Llanfaes Tabernacle fell under the St. John the Evangelist Parish.
I could be wrong though. It may be worth contacting a family history society from the area to see if they have any insight.
Hannah
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Hi,
I just looked on FreeREG and yes you are right, Sarah, John and Joseph Smith are all shown baptised in both places.
So are Henry Jones, Mary Williams and Elizabeth Williams - three random names that appear under Llanfaes Tabernacle. So it seems likely that all baptisms recorded at the Tabernacle are also on FreeREG under St John's.
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Hi,
I just looked on FreeREG and yes you are right, Sarah, John and Joseph Smith are all shown baptised in both places.
So are Henry Jones, Mary Williams and Elizabeth Williams - three random names that appear under Llanfaes Tabernacle. So it seems likely that all baptisms recorded at the Tabernacle are also on FreeREG under St John's.
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Many thanks to all who contributed to this discussion . Despite everyone's best efforts it looks as if we have no certain explanation as to why there is a duplication of the records.
I initiated this debate in the hope that some detail might emerge that would provide additional information about the identity of the children's parents.
I have a fairly comprehensive profile of the family of Charles and Sarah Smith but there are a couple of anomalies that cause me some concern. I have tackled the problem head on on another popular genealogy forum without any success. It seems that this more oblique approach is going to be equally fruitless.
I think I shall put this on the back burner for a while and let it stew. Perhaps when I come back to it again refreshed some way forward may become apparent.
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I think that somehow you have to see both original parish entries.
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Using FindMyPast, and looking at the original parish record of baptisms at St John the Evangelist, Brecon, there is only ONE baptism in the month of July 1822, and that is 7 July 1822 = Benjamin Thomas Brock.
Added: Nor is there any baptism at St John on 23 April 1826.
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Looking again at the images, I'm wondering whether there is more than one register for this church. Looking at the addresses for the parents, the majority seem to be either Old Port Inferior Ward or Old Port Superior Ward.