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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: philipsearching on Sunday 18 March 18 17:48 GMT (UK)
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The attached photo turned up in a relative's trunk and we have no idea who this man is.
I think the stripes on his sleeve show that his rank was Group Captain.
The medal ribbons (I may be wrong!) seem to be:
1) Either the Distinguished Flying Cross or the Air Force Cross
2) British War Medal (1914-18)
3) Victory Medal (1914-19)
4) George V Silver Jubilee Medal 1935
5) ? ? ? ? - oak leaf indicates Mentioned In Despatches
Can anyone identify the medal ribbon on the right?
I am a little worried that the uniform is too pale to be RAF blue - should I be concerned?
Many thanks
Philip.
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Good evening,
The first ribbon is post 1919, 1918 to 1919 had horizontal stripes. So possibly the Air Force Cross as that was for acts of valour, devotion to duty etc. not in the face of the enemy. For example, it was awarded to some officers who took part in the nuclear test programme and also to test pilots.
Couldn't find the final ribbon so need to search further afield.
John915
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Hi Philip,
The photograph is of an RAF Officer (Group Captain), His uniform could be No. 6 Khaki Dress (stone colour) which is used in hot climates.
JJ
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He looks like a young Sir Hugh Dowding, or Sir Cyril Newall or Sir Arthur Harris. It's all very confusing.
Malky
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Wonder if this could be the unidentified medal? -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croix_de_guerre_(Belgium)
Perhaps the oak leaf is actually a palm.
JJ
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Wonder if this could be the unidentified medal? -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croix_de_guerre_(Belgium)
Perhaps the oak leaf is actually a palm.
JJ
Is JJen short for Genius? - that is a brilliant spot! I had looked at British and French medals but forgot about Belgium.
So, assuming there are no hidden surprises, this is a man who was on active service in WW1 after 1915, who was awarded the Belgian Croix de Guerre (WW1) and some time after 1919 was awarded the AFC (or possibly, but unlikely, the DFC). He was serving in 1935 (as he received the Jubilee medal) and at some time in or after 1935 he was a Group Captain in the RAF. The uniform colour suggests he was serving in a hot climate (possibly India, Egypt, the Meditteranean or the Middle East)
Huge thanks to JJen and John915 for all the help.
I wonder how many RAF Group Captains there were in the late 1930s. Any ideas where I could find out?
Philip
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I wonder how many RAF Group Captains there were in the late 1930s. Any ideas where I could find out?
Philip
The RAF List was published annually (or quarterly, I can't remember) and can be found on the shelves of the National Archives or the Society of Genealogists, and probably in some major libraries.
London Gazette might be a source because Gp Capt X would have needed permission to wear the Belgian decoration, and that would have been gazetted.
Both searches a bit needle-in-a-haystack, but....
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The RAF List was published annually (or quarterly, I can't remember) and can be found on the shelves of the National Archives or the Society of Genealogists, and probably in some major libraries.
London Gazette might be a source because Gp Capt X would have needed permission to wear the Belgian decoration, and that would have been gazetted.
Both searches a bit needle-in-a-haystack, but....
Many thanks for the lead.
I found some RAF lists from 1938 online , but without knowing a surname it means wading through several hundred pages to find Group Captains with the AFC (or DFC) and see if a name rings a bell. (I think maybe I'll be a coward and pass the details on to my cousin! Wot, me, lazy?)
Philip
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Good evening,
He does look a little like Dowding but the moustache is not full enough. Sir Hugh's medal cluster doesn't include any bravery medals, DFC or AFC, or a Croix de Guerre. He had the 3 WW1 trio plus KG V jubilee, KG VI coronation and QE 2 coronation medals plus one foriegn medal, possibly Iraqi from WW2.
John915
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Any names here that might ring a bell:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Recipients_of_the_Croix_de_guerre_(Belgium)
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Aren't those RCAF pilot's wings?
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Well spotted diplodicus. His buttons certainly are!
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Aren't those RCAF pilot's wings?
Thank you diplodicus and macwil - I hadn't paid attention to the buttons and wings - the letters do look like RCAF. I forgot lesson 1 - check carefully, never assume!
A search for RCAF Group Captains should turn up fewer results than RAF so I am very hopeful that his identity can be established.
Once again, Rootschatters have provided outstanding responses - thank you everybody!
Philip
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Good morning,
You can narrow the search a little more. The Croix de Guerre ribbon is for WW1, red with green stripes.
In WW2 the ribbon was red with 3 green stripes on each border. Post 1954 colours are same but reversed so green background.
As many officers transferred to RFC from infantry or such he may have gained his medals before transfer.
John915
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Harold "Gus" Edwards ?
https://goo.gl/BYyKXp
http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/on-windswept-heights-2/29-history-1939-1945.page
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Thank you for your replies, but we are beginning to circle around and lose track.
Earlier in this thread we established that:
FACT
This man is a Group Captain in the Royal Canadian Air Force.
The photo is in or after 1935 (wearing George V Jubilee Meda ribbon).
The uniform loooks like No6 Khaki so he was probably serving in a hot country when the photo was taken.
He was on active service in WW1 some time after 1915 (wearing BWM and VM ribbons, no 1914 or 1914-15 Star)
He was awarded the Belgian WW1 CdeG with one palm.
He is not wearing any British of French gallantry medals except the post-WW1 Air Force Cross (remote possibility of DFC but unlikely)
SPECULATION
He was probably born before 1900 (active service in WW1)
He almost certainly served at the North of the Western Front (to be awarded Belgian CdeG)
The RCAF was formed in 1924, - he could have been in the British Army, Canadian Army or RFC during the war.
NEXT STEPS
1) I need to find out the names of RCAF Group Captains after 1935 (surely there can't be that many!) and cross-check them against holders of the AFC and Belgian CdeG (with no other gallantry awards before 1935)
2) When I have a list of possibles, pass the names to my cousin to see if any are in her tree.
3) Let the wonderful Rootschatters know the result!
4) Say yet another massive THANK YOU!
Philip
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You don't think it's Harold Edwards?
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Philip, the annoying thing with this photograph is that I have seen it before some time ago. I was hanging out washing today, and suddenly had a feeling that this person was an actor in one of the many war movies. My brain is slowly going through the memories, and will get there eventually.
Malky
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"You don't think it's Harold Edwards?"
I have looked at over 100 possibilities, and none fit. Harold Edwards ribbons are wrong, he has dark eyes and no cleft chin.
Malky
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"You don't think it's Harold Edwards?"
I have looked at over 100 possibilities, and none fit. Harold Edwards ribbons are wrong, he has dark eyes and no cleft chin.
Malky
Unfortunately, it's not Harold Edwards.
I have looked at many articles and pics on the mighty g00gle and found none that match the medals (too many or too few). The search goes on!
Philip
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Not sure at all, but may be Group Captain George Howsam 1895 to 1988. RFC, RAF and RCAF, Canadian.
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Good morning,
Not sure at all, but may be Group Captain George Howsam 1895 to 1988. RFC, RAF and RCAF, Canadian.
Not listed as CdeG (Belgium) recipient but shouldn't exclude him yet.
The only one I have found is R A Del'Haye. French born, served with RFC, RAF then with RCAF where he commanded a reserve sqd in the 30s. But he held the DFC not AFC as well as the CdeG (Belgium). Not fou d a picture as yet.
John915
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Back again,
"You don't think it's Harold Edwards?"
I have looked at over 100 possibilities, and none fit. Harold Edwards ribbons are wrong, he has dark eyes and no cleft chin.
Malky
Unfortunately, it's not Harold Edwards.
I have looked at many articles and pics on the mighty g00gle and found none that match the medals (too many or too few). The search goes on!
Philip
Too few or too many is not neccassarily a no no. Photo's may be taken before or after the medals shown but the CdeG will always be right of line nearest shoulder as a foreign award.
John915
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I think that you have finally found him. Cleft chin, light eyes, scar on right cheek, looks a bit like Leslie Howard.
http://www.canadaveteranshallofvalour.com/DelhayeRA.htm
Malky
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Hi,
Find a Grave, Regina Sasakatchewan, Roger Amedee Delhaye with newspaper clipping of his
death with photo.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/27661782
DB
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Ancestry has a WW2 photo of him https://goo.gl/KbV1nJ
Reading through the file, I see he was married in Ewell, Surrey.
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Wow, wow and mega-wow!
Roger Amedee DELHAYE looks to be a very good candidate.
The photo on findagrave does have a strong resemblance.
I don't have access to Anc***** - does it name his spouse? (I had a look on freebmd but couldn't spot a marriage in England)
Huge thanks to John915 for the initial spot, and to Malky, DB and ShaunJ for following it up.
Philip
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He married Doreenie Cordiale at the parish church in Ewell on October 16th 1918
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He married Doreenie Cordiale at the parish church in Ewell on October 16th 1918
Thank you so much.
(FreeBMD have him as DELHAYS, so I didn't spot him!)
I will pass on all the info to my cousin for her to see if he links to her tree.
Philip
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The Cordiale family lived at Roslyn, next to the old lock-up in Ewell village
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/5649781
Doreenie's father was James Cordiale (deceased by the time of the marriage).
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I think "Doreenie Cordiale" was born Dorothy Martha Cordial (mmn Baker) in West Ham in 1899. Father James Cordial, a sergeant in the Royal Artillery per the 1901 census (though the army record shows that he was discharged to pension in 1897).
On the 1918 marriage register she described her father as a Gas Company director. When sister Winifred (who was a witness to the 1918 marriage) married in 1927 she described the father's occupation as gas inspector.
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Good afternoon,
Had to go out after my last post and on my return find I no longer need search for a picture. Well found all who got more info.
John915
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Good spotting John915, well done.
DB
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I have passed all the information to my cousin.
She doesn't recognise the names, but her father was stationed at some of the same places as Roger Amedee DELHAYE in WW2. There is always the possibility that when Roger died in 1944 photos were printed as memorials, and that is how it ended up in her gran's collection.
My cousin has asked me to pass on her gratitude to everyone who contributed to this search. Also, from me, a massive thank you to you all.
Philip