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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: mcadamsd on Sunday 18 March 18 19:52 GMT (UK)
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Looking for info on family of 3rd great uncle
We have a bit of information but it is mostly from other family trees with limited supporting documents.
We believe Thomas and Sarah married 23 Nov 1826 at St Mary, Islington.
We have found one child Thomas Henry Shaw Birth 4 SEP 1828 London, England Death 24 AUG 1914 St Arnaud, Victoria, Australia. We do not know if he was sent to Australia or moved to find a new life.
Thomas Shaw's parents were
Michael Shaw 1774–1835
Catherine Stevenson 1773–1848
Both passed in London, England.
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We have found one child Thomas Henry Shaw Birth 4 SEP 1828 London, England Death 24 AUG 1914 St Arnaud, Victoria, Australia. We do not know if he was sent to Australia or moved to find a new life.
Have you checked to see whether he appears on any English census from 1841 onwards?
Have you checked for census entries for Thomas & Sarah to see if they had any other children?
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The Australian birth Index has the Thomas Henry Shaw who died in St Arnaud as the s/o Thomas and Emma.
I assume that this is the Thomas Henry Shaw who married Jane Webb, 13 Oct 1850 at St Leonard Shoreditch. He was a carpenter of Plumber Street and his father Thomas was also a carpenter.
1841 Census - Plumber Street St Leonard
Thomas Shaw, 40, carpenter, not born in county
Frances Shaw. 40..................ditto
Thomas Shaw, 13, b. Middlesex
Mary Shaw, 10..........ditto
Thomas Shaw, 75, not born in county
Elizabeth Shaw, 75, not born in county.
The marriage you referred to earlier was a Thomas Shaw, widower to Sarah Hedger spinster, 23 Nov 1826, St Mary Islington.
Given the 1841 I don't believe that this correct.
You also cite Thomas Henry Shaw born 4 Sept 1828 St Mary Islington - this one would also be incorrect as the details are Thomas Henry Shaw, baptised 4 Sept 1828, s/o Thomas & Sarah of Cow Cross Street, a cheesemonger.
Jo :)
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The Australian birth Index has the Thomas Henry Shaw who died in St Arnaud as the s/o Thomas and Emma.
A report of his death here:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article119810228
"The death is reported of Mr Thos H Shaw, of St Arnaud, aged 86 years. He leaves threee sons and two daughters, his wife having predeceased him 26 years ago. At one time the deceased followed mining pursuits at Talbot."
Modified to add:
Another death notice with some more info
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article154608623
"DEATH OF A PIONEER
The death is reported of a very old colonist, Mr Thos H Shaw of St Arnaud. The deceased who was 86 years of age leaves a family of three daughters and two sons, one of the latter being Mr John Shaw of Ballarat. His wife predeceased him 26 years ago. The late Mr Shaw was born in London and came to Australia when 24 years of age. For a time he followed mining pursuits at Talbot and subsequently came to St Arnaud."
Modified again:
Don't know how I missed this one -
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article88046218
More info again, including that he worked as a carpenter, and names of his children
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Thomas' wife Jane's death:
Jane Copeland SHAW, age 59
St Arnaud, Victoria, 1887, Reg no 12020
Parents - John WEBB and Jane
Spouse - Thomas Henry SHAW
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ok, a bit confusing.....
Thomas Henry Shaw marries Jane Webb in 1850....he is a carpenter, as is his father Thomas...
Australian records show him to be a carpenter as well. This would match with the earlier 1841 census record showing Thomas with father Thomas a carpenter.
In 1851 at 9 Britannia Street Shoreditch, only a year after his marriage to Jane Webb....
Thomas Shaw, 23 blacksmith & farrier born Cow Cross (as per baptism to father Thomas a cheesmonger!)
Jane Shaw, 27, wife
Henry Webb, 5
1853 - aboard the Northumbria to Melbourne..
Thomas Shaw, a smith
Jane Shaw
Henry Shaw
Elizabeth Shaw
Baptisms on 16 June 1852, St John Hoxton
Henry William Webb (now Shaw) (as noted on record), born 6 Dec 1845 at Clarence Street to Jane, a servant
Elizabeth Shaw, born 22 Aug 1851, at Britannia Street to Thomas Henry & Jane, father a farrier.
So it seems as if Thomas Henry was a carpenter up to 1850 when he married Jane, then became a blacksmith & farrier in 1851 up to immigrating in 1853, when he then reverted to being a carpenter??
Father Thomas also went from a cheese-monger on his baptism to a carpenter on the 1841 census and 1850 marriage record???
Jo :)
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I find the Victorian Public Record Office website very hard to navigate, but I think a Thomas (age 24) and Jane SHAW (27) were assisted immigrants on the Northumbria 5 Jan 1853. It appears there was also Henry (6) and Elizabeth (1).
Modified to add - sorry Jo, our replies crossed ;)
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Hey guys,
This guy is an ancestor of my auntie’s beau. !!
I’ve done a fair bit of searching via ancestry and can dig it up when I get home.
Thomas, father of Thomas Henry, was married 3 times.
Thomas Henry’s mother was Sarah.
1841 census for the family is wife no 2 Frances Hedges.
1851 census is wife no 3 Mary Roberts.
I’ll look into this more when I’m free this evening.
Salute,
Janelle
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Thomas Shaw born circa 1800 in Witham Essex.
1st marriage - St Leonard Shoreditch 10 Apr 1822
Thomas Shaw, bachelor, otp and Sarah Wilson, spinster, otp, married by banns, both signed. Witnesses Thos Nye & Pheby Richel
2nd marriage - St John Hoxton 31 Aug 1833
Thomas Shaw, widower, otp & Frances Hedges, spinster, otp, (very similar signature for Thomas), witnesses JW Richel, Pheby Richel and William Ballard
3rd marriage - 19 Dec 1850
Thomas Shaw, widower, carpenter of Plummer Street, father Thos Shaw, china-man married Mary Smith, 36, widow, father John Roberts, wheelwright.
Baptisms at St John Hoxton 14 Sept 1853
Frederick John Shaw, s/o Thomas & Mary of Plumber Street, carpenter (born 13 Aug 1853)
Emma Shaw, d/o Thomas & Mary of Plumber Street carpenter (born 13 Oct 1851)
Thomas and Emma together at Plumber Street in 1861 & 1871 censuses - Thomas a widower again.
Thomas Shaw (Senior) of Plumber Street, buried 16 Sept 1843, aged 77 at St John Hoxton.
So siblings of Thomas Henry Shaw:
Mary c1830 (as per 1841 census)
Emma in 1851
Frederick John in 1853
Pheby Richel buried in Hackney in 1864, age 74 (possible sister of Thomas).
Jo :)
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Anything left to do? ???
Nothing to be confused about. Jane's older son Henry was a Webb.
My family friend descends from the eldest child of Thomas Henry Shaw and Jane Copeland Webb ...
Elizabeth b 22 Aug 1851 Shoreditch was his great grandmother.
She married William Anderton Rowland in 1867, when she is only 15 !! Nothing else to do in a mining town?
Their dau Florence Jane b 1876, married Francis Ezekiel Simmons.
I'll get back to my DNA matches stalking. ;D
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Hi Janelle,
I wasn't confused about Janes eldest child being illegitimate, I was, and am, confused about the completely different occupations given for the two Thomas'. It seems very strange to go from being a cheese monger to a carpenter, and then for Thomas Henry to go from a carpenter to a smith & farrier and then back to a carpenter in such a brief period ????
The original poster was looking for siblings of Thomas Henry Shaw, they also seemed to believe that his father was the son of a Michael & Catherine.
These were the points I was hoping to assist with.
Other possible children of Thomas Shaw & Sarah Wilson....
Emma Louisa Shaw, bap 2 Aug 1824 at St Sepulchre Holborn
Burials at St Sepulchre for the following children, all of CowCross Street...
Emma Shaw, buried 22 Jan 1828, aged 3 years and 6 months.
Sarah Shaw, buried 21 May 1828, aged 1 year 8 months
Sarah Shaw buried 28 Dec 1823, aged 9 months.
Jo :)
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Thanks for all the detailed replies. It would seem our information is incorrect or at least confused with another family.
It would be unusual for someone to change trades as some records suggest. Was carpentry not an apprentice trade that required some years of apprenticeship?
I am certainly more confused. I think I have some mingled data from other trees.
I think I need to go forward a generation with persons with better documentation and see if the errors can be eliminated or confirmed.
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Apologies. Clicked send on previous too soon.
We have good documentation for my 2nd great grandmother
Rebecca Shaw Birth 25 SEP 1802 London, England
Death 28 DEC 1884 City of London Union Infirmary, Mile End
Records report her parents as Michael Shaw and Catherine Stevenson
She married David Barnard 13 MAY 1821 Saint Leonards,Shoreditch,London,England Image attached. Witness names are hard to make out. One seems to have surname Lea and we know one of David and Rebecca's children had a middle name Lee ( at least that is how we have seen it on baptism) Could the name be a spelling error or maybe no connection at all. Grasping a bit perhaps.
I know there were several Barnard families in the area and it seems from posts her, there were several Shaw families. Also does not help that given names were common.
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Hi Mcadamsd,
The signatures look to me like D Barnard and Jonah Lea.
There is a will for Michael Shaw, plumber of Kingsland Road Middlesex, probate 1836. In this he leaves everything to his daughter Rebecca Shaw and names her as his executrix. No wife or other children are named and Rebecca is named as Shaw and not Barnard?
This matches with the death you have of Michael Shaw in 1835 although as you have his wife dying after him I would assume she would be provided for along with the number of siblings.
Do you have anything that confirms that your Rebecca is the daughter of this Michael?
Jo :)
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Hi Mcadamsd,
The signatures look to me like D Barnard and Jonah Lea.
There is a will for Michael Shaw, plumber of Kingsland Road Middlesex, probate 1836. In this he leaves everything to his daughter Rebecca Shaw and names her as his executrix. No wife or other children are named and Rebecca is named as Shaw and not Barnard?
This matches with the death you have of Michael Shaw in 1835 although as you have his wife dying after him I would assume she would be provided for along with the number of siblings.
Do you have anything that confirms that your Rebecca is the daughter of this Michael?
Jo :)
Further digging at my end has quickly revealed my tree had a Michael Shaw born 1796 and passing in 1835, same year as the father but different months. Father November and son December. However, that data came from other tree. Some have the son's death as March 1835
I had a parish baptism record for Rebecca 18 Oct 1802 St Leonard, Shoreditch, Middlesex, England but I cannot find the downloaded document but image shows parents Catherine and Michael.
I have been unable to find a marriage for the younger Michael Shaw that might explain the will and the daughter Rebecca. I found a hint for a death record that lists a death in 1835 for a Michael Shaw in 1835 with mother Catherine but have been unable to view that document.
Going back to the parents Michael Shaw and Catherine Stevenson, I have found some detail
Catherine was daughter of James Stevenson and Elizabeth Stevenson (Battle) and was baptized 1 Aug 1773 St Mary, Whitechapel, Middlesex, England. She married 22 Dec 1793 Christ Church with St Mary and St Stephen, Spitalfields. She seems to have passed 05 Mar 1848, possibly in a workhouse Princes Street, St George in the East
Michael Shaw was baptized 14 Aug 1774 St Leonard, Shoreditch Hackney, Middlesex and parents were Ephraim Shaw and Sarah Shaw ( We believe maiden name Man or Mann) We have not found a child named Sarah which seems odd. The death record shows birth 1773 which seems close.
One additional confusing fact we have found in several sources is a daughter Charlotte born 1805
Birth 07 MAY 1805 • Huntington Street, Shoreditch, Middlesex and Death 22 AUG 1805 • Huntington Street, Shoreditch, Middlesex. The records are there to support this but additionally others show a Charlotte Shaw married to a Mark Hayes 11 May 1828 • St John's, Hackney, Middlesex, England.
All this seems to point to my confusing two families living in the same area with similar given names.
More confused than ever but at least know there are possible major issues with this branch
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Hi Mcadamsd,
I think I have the right Rebecca in 1851 and 1881 and she gives her place of birth as St Olaves Surrey. There are several Shaw families being baptised at St Olaves and Southwark in that period, not one for a Rebecca that I can see. Again I have to question if your Rebecca is the one baptised at Shoreditch to Michael and Catherine. Other than her year of birth matching that baptism do you have anything else that connects her? Other family members living with her? Is she mentioned in any family wills? Is she a witness at any siblings weddings as Barnard?
I am going away for a couple of days but will have a look when I get back as I know how frustrating it can be to find out that you have been following the wrong path and will look for something to show you have the right Rebecca, although that may be something you may never be sure of.
As always, take public trees with a large grain of salt.
Kind regards, Jo :)
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Back again.... :)
Burials at St Leonard Shoreditch
Michael Shaw, of Kingsland Road, buried 30 Nov 1835, aged 62 (1773)
Michael Shaw, of Kingsland Road, buried 21 Dec 1835, aged 40 (1795)
Catherine Shaw of Kingsland Road, buried 3 Dec 1815, aged 49 (1766)
Also...
Robert Shaw, of Kingsland Road, buried 8 May 1823, aged 54 (1769)
Sarah Shaw of Kingsland Road, buried 2 Aug 1830, aged 73 (1757)
If the will found was for Michael Junior then a possible daughter Rebecca would be aged well under 21, the funds would be left in the care of a trustee and she would not be the executrix.
This leads me to believe that it refers to Rebecca, unmarried (in 1835) daughter of Michael and Catherine.
Also....
There is a Rebecca Shaw living at High Street Hoxton, aged 34 (ages are rounded down in the 1841 census), born in county, of independent means, living at the same address as Charlotte and Mark Hayes and children.
Unfortunately your Rebecca may not have been baptised, or it may be a nonconformist or Catholic record that is not available online.
Searching for possible siblings by following the census and marriage records of Shaw children born in St Olave and Southwark may be a possible lead, also reading any Shaw wills published in the Middlesex area.
Sorry that I couldn't offer a more positive resolution, especially as you appear to have invested a lot of time and effort on the Michael and Catherine line.
Best wishes, Jo :)
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Rebecca Shaw, born 1807 Islington is still living with sister Charlotte Hayes in 1851. This Rebecca and Charlotte appear to be the daughters of Charles and Ann, baptised in Islington.
Jo :)