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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: Christianmpoulsen on Wednesday 21 March 18 16:09 GMT (UK)
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Dear all
I am trying to find out the actual houses / farms that my ancestors lived in, and what these buildings are called now / what remains. I've got quite confused and I think someone who has local knowledge or access to old maps of the area may be able to help please.
Benjamin Lowes (1764-1852) married Elizabeth Heron (1766-1851)
in 1841 census they lived at 'Craig', parish of Corsenside. They had one household, and each of their 2 sons with their associated families had another 2 households, also listed as 'Craig', Corsenside. The sons are their 2 eldest, Nicholas Lowes (1792-1873) and Robert Lowes (1791-1855). I have read somewhere that this was a Bastle House, but I am not sure. These 3 households are the only households I can see listed in 1841 as Craig.
in 1851 census Benjamin and wife Elizabeth have moved in with their son Nicholas. It appears that they have moved, but again, I am not sure if it is the same place but listed differently.
It is now 'Woodhouse', Dueshill. The 2 brothers Nicholas and Robert are both listed as this, each as 2 households with their associated families. Nicholas is showing as a farmer of 900 acres with 4 labourers, so presumably reasonably well off? I wondered if he had inherited the farm from his father Benjamin and how I could find out if Benjamin also had this amount of land. Woodhouses appears to have definitely been a Bastle, but there were also cottages. I wondered if they lived in the cottages and the bastle was owned by them, on their land, or if they lived in the Bastle itself.
In another post it has been indicated that Woodhouses Farm is now called Holystone Grange, but I am still not sure if this is correct, or indeed if this is the building they were in. If it is, its very grand!
Any help please with identifying the actual 1841 and 1851 residence, and where Benjamin and Elizabeth were living prior to this / did they own a large farm, would be greatly appreciated. It certainly looks like a beautiful and historic area in the Coquet Valley.
kind regards
Christian
the bastle is still there , have a nice photo.
the Woodhouses Farm and cottage is now called Holystone Grange on modern os maps. but its down as a farm on the maps of 1866 approx.
Have pictures of Craig , talked to the owners father and Colwellhill where Edward was a shepherd and the pub
Cloe
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You can see Woodhouses on the map and the modern view at http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=16&lat=55.2980&lon=-2.0542&layers=6&right=BingHyb
It is now called Holystone Grange? https://goo.gl/maps/nCBYRNFq5912
Stan
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It is called Dues Hill Grange on the 1923 map and Holystone Grange on the 1957 map
https://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.html#/Map/396638/600369/10/101324
Listed Building https://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/101155740-holystone-grange-harbottle#.WrKLO-jFLIU
You can see that there is a Peel, or Pele, Tower marked on the map.
Stan
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Thank you very much, this confirms that Woodhouses, Dueshill Grange and Holystone Grange are all one and the same place, with the Woodhouses Bastle in its grounds. It does appear that my ancestors the Lowes lived in the Grange house.
Is ‘Craig’ an entirely different place nearby?
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Is this ‘Craig’ Corsenside do you think?
http://www.gatehouse-gazetteer.info/English%20sites/2625.html
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That will be it see https://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.html#/Map/393710/599871/10/101337 it is to the west of Woodhouses.
Stan
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Nicholas is showing as a farmer of 900 acres with 4 labourers, so presumably reasonably well off? I wondered if he had inherited the farm from his father Benjamin and how I could find out if Benjamin also had this amount of land.
Wills/Probate
Pre 1858, Durham and Northumberland available at http://familyrecords.dur.ac.uk/nei/data/simple.php
linked to images on Family Search and are free
Post 1858 Probate Calendars here:
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills
If there is a will/admin there is a fee for copies (£10)
Boo
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Boo, thank you so much, I had no idea about this. I’ve got loads of people to search for now!
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I have found the will for Elizabeth Herons father, but can’t seem to find one for Benjamin Lowes - which means he likely died intestate, yes?
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I have found the will for Elizabeth Herons father, but can’t seem to find one for Benjamin Lowes - which means he likely died intestate, yes?
Just as happens now, even if he died intestate a grant of administration of his affairs (granted by the Probate Court) would have been necessary to administer his estate if the estate value exceeded a specific amount (fairly low).
In the post 1858 probate calendars, if it says Probate Granted, then that person left a will which was duly proved. If it says Admin Granted then the person had died without leaving a will (or one that could be found) and Administration of the estate was granted.
Boo
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Boo, thank you so much, I had no idea about this. I’ve got loads of people to search for now!
I'd strongly recommend reading through other posts in here and the replies they receive, even if they have nothing to do with the families you are researching. There is a wealth of resources out there and I have learned a huge amount about how and where to look from just reading questions and replies on the forum.
In a lot of ways knowing what may be available is the hardest part of research, once we learn where and how to find info the actual searching is a lot easier and more rewarding.
Boo
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I have found the will for Elizabeth Herons father, but can’t seem to find one for Benjamin Lowes - which means he likely died intestate, yes?
Just as happens now, even if he died intestate a grant of administration of his affairs (granted by the Probate Court) would have been necessary to administer his estate if the estate value exceeded a specific amount (fairly low).
In the post 1858 probate calendars, if it says Probate Granted, then that person left a will which was duly proved. If it says Admin Granted then the person had died without leaving a will (or one that could be found) and Administration of the estate was granted.
Boo
Thanks Boo, I’ll have a look and see if i can find Benjamin again. Good advice re reading other posts!
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I have found the will for Elizabeth Herons father, but can’t seem to find one for Benjamin Lowes - which means he likely died intestate, yes?
Just as happens now, even if he died intestate a grant of administration of his affairs (granted by the Probate Court) would have been necessary to administer his estate if the estate value exceeded a specific amount (fairly low).
In the post 1858 probate calendars, if it says Probate Granted, then that person left a will which was duly proved. If it says Admin Granted then the person had died without leaving a will (or one that could be found) and Administration of the estate was granted.
Boo
Thanks Boo, I’ll have a look and see if i can find Benjamin again. Good advice re reading other posts!
I think your assumption that they owned the farm may be a bit optimistic. Most farms back then were owned by the large estates and rented to the people who farmed them. Try searching through old newspapers to see if there are are any for sale or to let adverts?
Boo
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From the Yorkshire Post and Leeds Intelligencer - Saturday 20 July 1929
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Is this ‘Craig’ Corsenside do you think?
http://www.gatehouse-gazetteer.info/English%20sites/2625.html
That will be it see https://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.html#/Map/393710/599871/10/101337 it is to the west of Woodhouses.
I'm not convinced this is the same place as the 'Craig' referred to by christian, who states in his original posting that his Lowes family are living there in the 1841 census of Corsenside.
The place you link to is some distance from Corsenside, a little south of Holystone. I think this is the place called The Craig in the 1841 census of Elsdon, Woodside Ward (HO 107 / 829 / 28 / 4 / 3 )
'Craig', in the Parish of Corsenside, as referred to by christian, is found at HO 107 / 838 / 15 / 5 / 2 in Enumeration District 7. This is described as 'south of the river road and west of the turnpike road called Watling Street and all that part of the Redesdale Ironworks village as lies east of Watling Street'.
Neighbouring 'Craig' are Ridsdale Moor and Chesterhope. So I suggest that it's quite possibly the place called The Crag here http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=15&lat=55.1629&lon=-2.1813&layers=6&right=BingHyb , now called Cragg Farm.
which is quite clearly west of the turnpike (now the A68) and south of the 'river road' which is the road from Bellingham to West Woodburn (and a very lovely road it is :) )
(The Northumberland Farm Index shows two places called 'Crag'. One is in Woodside Ward Township, Elsdon. The other, The Crag, is in Chesterhope North & West Township, Corsenside.)
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If I have the right place in Corsenside Parish, it is a listed building:
https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1154147
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You can see The Crag on the map at https://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.html#/Map/388552/585437/12/100954 and Woodhouse at https://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.html#/Map/388883/587134/10/101322
both these are in West Woodburn Corsenside. So this Woodhouse is not Holystone Grange
Side by side http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=14&lat=55.1731&lon=-2.1771&layers=6&right=BingHyb
Stan
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You can see The Crag on the map at https://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.html#/Map/388552/585437/12/100954 and Woodhouse at https://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.html#/Map/388883/587134/10/101322
both these are in West Woodburn Corsenside. So this Woodhouse is not Holystone Grange
Side by side http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=14&lat=55.1731&lon=-2.1771&layers=6&right=BingHyb
So, you are agreeing with me that the place previously identified as Craig is not correct?
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Yes it appears that Craig at https://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.html#/Map/393710/599871/10/101337 is not the correct one.
Stan
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You can see The Crag on the map at https://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.html#/Map/388552/585437/12/100954 and Woodhouse at https://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.html#/Map/388883/587134/10/101322
both these are in West Woodburn Corsenside. So this Woodhouse is not Holystone Grange
Side by side http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=14&lat=55.1731&lon=-2.1771&layers=6&right=BingHyb
Stan
Too many places of the same name up here :)
Christian, just to make clear that in 1851 your Benjamin was not living at 'Woodhouse' in Corsenside Parish, he was living with his sons and daughter at 'Woodhouses' in the Dueshill Township of Holystone Parish ( HO 107/2423/277/9 ) the location of which Stan indicated to you here
You can see Woodhouses on the map and the modern view at http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=16&lat=55.2980&lon=-2.0542&layers=6&right=BingHyb
It is now called Holystone Grange? https://goo.gl/maps/nCBYRNFq5912
Stan
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If you are trying to pinpoint where your ancestors lived, looking at the enumerators description for the census return will give you a good ball park area of where it was. On ancestry you can page back, from the census image they appear on (or jump to page 1) till you get the the start of the image set to find the description.
In 1851, the district description was
The whole of the township of Holystone including village of Holystone, Township of Dewshill and Township of Farnham.
That will help you find the area on the side by side maps, get to the general area on a modern day map and then squiggle round on the old map till you spot what you are looking for.
he, he, I am sure others have a more scientific way of finding places, but squiggling usually gets me there in the end :-)
Boo
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then squiggle round on the old map till you spot what you are looking for.
There’s nothing quite like having a good old squiggle around on an old map ;D
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In the 1851 census it is definitely WoodhouseS in Dueshill - so this is the place we initially said was later called Dueshill Grange and more recently Holystone Grange, yes?
It is just the ‘Craig’ that perhaps is different to what we first thought, although it did seem to make sense as it was just a short distance from Woodhouses
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In the 1841 Census Craig is followed by Chesterhope, which you can see on the map at https://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.html#/Map/389231/585291/10/101337
Stan
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In the 1841 Census Craig is followed by Chesterhope, which you can see on the map at https://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.html#/Map/389231/585291/10/101337
Stan
Thanks Stan, you’re definately right, it was the wrong Craig I had initially identified, it’s the Corsenside/Chesterhope one.
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Thanks Stan, you’re definately right, it was the wrong Craig I had initially identified, it’s the Corsenside/Chesterhope one.
As I pointed out first in reply #14 :)
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Thanks Stan, you’re definately right, it was the wrong Craig I had initially identified, it’s the Corsenside/Chesterhope one.
As I pointed out first in reply #14 :)
Sorry Jen B, yes, absolutely. I’m out at the moment and replying on the hoc and you did absolutely and thoroughly point out and identify first. Thank you. I’ll be rereading everything once I’m home and on my desktop again, but I’m too impatient to wait and read the replies until then 😃
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No problem :)
I recommend that you bookmark this list, the Northumberland Farms Index. This gives a list of farm names, and is what made me suspect that you were looking at the wrong place.
http://www.experiencewoodhorn.com/file/uploaded/Collections%20-%20Finding%20Aids/Northumberland%20Farm%20Index%201860.pdf
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No problem :)
I recommend that you bookmark this list, the Northumberland Farms Index. This gives a list of farm names, and is what made me suspect that you were looking at the wrong place.
http://www.experiencewoodhorn.com/file/uploaded/Collections%20-%20Finding%20Aids/Northumberland%20Farm%20Index%201860.pdf
That’s really useful too, definitely bookmarked thank you. So many resources I’m not aware of.
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OK, so I am probably missing something really obvious here, but I'm having difficulty using these maps and searching for places
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#
and am finding that I can't seem to enter a search term and then view side to side maps. I have used the very useful list of Northumberland Farms index and identified 'Clews' in Bellingham, but am now not able to locate it on a map. It might be more use to me if someone could either talk me through the process of how I'd find this place so I can repeat in the future for other places, or direct me to easy to follow instructions please!
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I think you have slightly mis-understood how to search these maps. You can't put in a term like Clews, which was probably the name of a small farm or hamlet, and expect to pinpoint it. At the most you can put in the name, say, of a small town (like Bellingham), or possibly a village, and then start looking.
Sometimes, when we have found a place on an old map it has taken quite a lot of searching (or squiggling as Boo put it yesterday :D )
Look at the census returns; find the place you are interested in, look at neighbouring places, then use that information to locate it on a map. (That is how I found 'Craig' in Corsenside yesterday).
Search the name on the internet, and see if there are any hits that give you a clue as to where it might be.
Often there are no shortcuts. You just have to spend time and scan the map.
As to Clews, I had a look on the Northumberland Communities website, https://communities.northumberland.gov.uk/ which has a lot of old maps, and found it there.
https://communities.northumberland.gov.uk/007464FS.htm
You can see it quite easily, it is just to the north of Bellingham.
Having found it easily on that map I then went to the Old Maps site, and was able to pinpoint it
https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/384040/585593/12/101338 (you might have to use the - button and zoom out a bit before you can see it)
There is no magic way of find a lot of these places. You sometimes have to be a bit creative in the searching process!
(I think the spot marked with the arrow here on a present-day map http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=383973&Y=585580&A=Y&Z=115 is approximately where Clews was situated)
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Another complication with a search like this is that place-names are often rendered differently.
Thus, 'Clews' appears to be 'Cleugh' on this map https://communities.northumberland.gov.uk/006826FS.htm
On the 1851 census it's Clews, but in 1841 census it seems to be 'Clues' (HO 107/837/24/16/25)
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I think you have slightly mis-understood how to search these maps. You can't put in a term like Clews, which was probably the name of a small farm or hamlet, and expect to pinpoint it. At the most you can put in the name, say, of a small town (like Bellingham), or possibly a village, and then start looking.
Sometimes, when we have found a place on an old map it has taken quite a lot of searching (or squiggling as Boo put it yesterday :D )
Look at the census returns; find the place you are interested in, look at neighbouring places, then use that information to locate it on a map. (That is how I found 'Craig' in Corsenside yesterday).
Search the name on the internet, and see if there are any hits that give you a clue as to where it might be.
Often there are no shortcuts. You just have to spend time and scan the map.
As to Clews, I had a look on the Northumberland Communities website, https://communities.northumberland.gov.uk/ which has a lot of old maps, and found it there.
https://communities.northumberland.gov.uk/007464FS.htm
You can see it quite easily, it is just to the north of Bellingham.
Having found it easily on that map I then went to the Old Maps site, and was able to pinpoint it
https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/384040/585593/12/101338 (you might have to use the - button and zoom out a bit before you can see it)
There is no magic way of find a lot of these places. You sometimes have to be a bit creative in the searching process!
(I think the spot marked with the arrow here on a present-day map http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=383973&Y=585580&A=Y&Z=115 is approximately where Clews was situated)
Thanks Jen, I’d best get squiggling then 🤣
The map site links you’ve sent will be bookmarked also. I think I was just having difficulty with that specific site with the split view and just need to learn how to use it properly.
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You don't need to use the split view one. You can also use this one, then use the tab at the top to go over to the split ('side by side') view.
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/find/index.cfm#zoom=5&lat=53.8597&lon=-3.0000&layers=102&b=1&point=0,0
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if someone could either talk me through the process of how I'd find this place so I can repeat in the future for other places,
Here's how you could have found 'Clews' using Boos squiggling method.
Follow the instructions she gave you yesterday about looking at the enumeration description on the Census. I've put up a snip of the relevant page of the 1851, which you will see includes Clews.
Other places mentioned include Demesne, Boggle Hole, Percy Row, Snoggy Gate, Haining Rigg and Clews.
Search Bellingham on the link I gave in my previous posting.
On the next page you should see four thumbnail maps on the r-h side. Click on the topmost one and zoom into Bellingham.
If you look carefully you can see some of the places I mentioned above.
Move a little northwards, up the river and you will see Haining Rigg. Go a bit further north, to the top of the map, and there is Clews.
Simples ;D