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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Aberdeenshire => Topic started by: sw1 on Thursday 22 March 18 11:31 GMT (UK)
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I have a problem with a PIRIE. Doing research for a friend and this is one big stumbling block.
Elspet Jane PIRIE b 1863 Old Machar, dau of William PIRIE and Jane Dunn.
She appears in the 1871 census with her family.
Next appearance is as the named mother on the marriage certificate of her daughter, Elspet (Elsie) Jane FINDLAY marriage certificate when she married David Wilson NICOL.
Marriage: 27 Feb 1900. David Wilson Nicol, bachelor and labourer aged 22, married Elspet Jane Findlay, spinster and provision worker aged 21, married after publication according to the forms of the established Church of Scotland on 27 Feb 1900 at 57 Queen Street, Aberdeen. David's accommodation noted as 3 Farrier Lane, Aberdeen and Elspet's accommodation noted as 57 Queen Street, Aberdeen. David's parents named as George Nicol, trawler engine fitter, deceased and Elizabeth Nicol MS McAllister. Elspet's parents named as John Findlay, labourer at gas works and Elspet Jane Findlay MS Pirie. Witnesses were James Jamieson and James Williamson.
David and Elspet had a daughter, Maggie Bell NICOL b 1898, 2 years before they were married and Maggie is marked as illegitimate on her birth certificate; mother signed as Elsie Findlay. Father also signed the birth certificate. Where does the name BELL come from? But that’s another problem!
I tried to find a birth of Elspet Jane FINDLAY and found a possibility dated Dec 1879. Father John Findlay; mother Jane Pirie; married 1872 Portsoy. Downloaded that marriage only to find that the mother named her parents as Alexander PIRIE and Ann, so back to square one.
There is a possible marriage at Peterhead in 1900 but that can’t be right! They are on the 1901 census with a young son James.
I am beginning to wonder if Elsie’s mother, Elspet b 1863 gave birth to Elsie as an illegitimate child. The mother would only have been 16 years old at the time! Sounds fishy to me. But where did Elsie get her father’s name of John FINDLAY from???
If anyone can help out here, I’d be enormously grateful. There are so many PIRIE and FINDLAY in Aberdeenshire the words haystack and pin often come to mind!! Thank you for reading all this so far!
Suzie (in Orkney)
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If she was illegitimate have you tried under the surname Pirie
There is an Elsie Jane Pirie born 1879 Keith on Scotlands People
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Thank you, Wendy. I'll have a look at that.
Suzie
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Hi Suzie
How have you confirmed that the Elspeth Jane b. 1863 is the correct mother?
Have you got Elsie in 1901 and 1911 to confirm her birth place?
Monica
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Monica.
I just have details of the certificate from Scotlands People but have not downloaded it to be honest. She was the 4th of 8 children in that family (William Pirie and Jane Dunn) and appeared with her parents in 1871 aged 7 named Elspet.
In 1901 I have her as the wife of David Wilson Nicol as per the marriage of 27 Feb 1900 details of which I gave in my first post.
This afternoon, I have trawled the 1881 and 1891 but to no avail. I also looked for a John Findlay/Findley, a gas worker in 1901 but nothing came up. It's a real mystery. I am 99.9% convinced that if I pay to download the birth of Elsie b 1863 it will show her parents as per the 1871 census. BUT....having just looked at the years of birth of all the children...they are all 2 years between them except Elspet, so maybe I should download the certificate to be sure.
The 1900 marriage of John Findlay to Jane Pirie at Peterhead is NOT my Elspet (Elsie) Jane Pirie.
Suzie
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Monica,
Yes, as I thought....
Daughter of William Pirie and Jane Dunn. Correct address of family too.
No sign of illegitimacy.
So......
Suzie
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The marriage in 1900 for David Wilson Nicol is to the daughter of Elspeth Jane b. 1863 isn't it?
Have you got David and Elsie in any census? See from this Elsie died in 1952:
David Wilson NICOL
b. 20 JUN 1877 Aberdeen, ABD, SCT
d. 24 MAY 1942 Aberdeen, ABD, SCT
Parents: George NICOL and Elizabeth MCALLISTER
Family:
Marriage: 7 FEB 1900 Aberdeen, ABD, SCT
Spouse: Elspet 'Elsie' Jane FINDLAY
b. 7 DEC 1879 Aberdeen, ABD, SCT
d. 18 FEB 1952 Aberdeen, ABD, SCT
Gender: Female
Parents John FINDLAY and Jane PIRIE
www.loadsofpeople.co.uk/ef_12592.html#8
Have you checked Elsie's death to see what it said about her parents?
Monica
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So this is 1901:
David Wilson Nicol 29
Elsept Jane Findlay Nicol 21 b. Aberdeen
Maggie Bell Nicol 8 (this should be 3?)
George Nicol 5 Months
Address: 9 Albion Street, Aberdeen
What was the address showing in Maggie Bell Nicol's birth reg for her birth?
Monica
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The marriage in 1900 for David Wilson Nicol is to the daughter of Elspeth Jane b. 1863 isn't it?
Have you got David and Elsie in any census? See from this Elsie died in 1952:
David Wilson NICOL
b. 20 JUN 1877 Aberdeen, ABD, SCT
d. 24 MAY 1942 Aberdeen, ABD, SCT
Parents: George NICOL and Elizabeth MCALLISTER
Family:
Marriage: 7 FEB 1900 Aberdeen, ABD, SCT
Spouse: Elspet 'Elsie' Jane FINDLAY
b. 7 DEC 1879 Aberdeen, ABD, SCT
d. 18 FEB 1952 Aberdeen, ABD, SCT
Gender: Female
Parents John FINDLAY and Jane PIRIE
www.loadsofpeople.co.uk/ef_12592.html#8
Have you checked Elsie's death to see what it said about her parents?
Monica
According to this link jane Findlay b 1863 is the Daughter of Alexander and Ann so the birth you found could be correct and her parents were not William and Jane I think you are mixing up 2 Elspet Jane Findlay's
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Did Elsie's 1900 marriage reg refer to her mother as Elspet Jane or just Jane? Did mother show as alive or deceased?
Just from the general index for 1911, is this the family?
David 33
Elsie 31
Maggie 12
George 10
David 8
Catherine 5
Elsie 3
William 0
Monica
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Monica,
Yes, that is the correct 1901 census. And I agree Maggie Bell NICOL should be aged 3.
The address on her birth certificate is 3 Farrier Lane, same as the accommodation address father David gave on his marriage certificate. Am wondering where the BELL name came from; stumped on that one at present but that can definitely wait for another day!!!
The marriage in 1900 for David Wilson Nicol is to the daughter of Elspeth Jane b. 1863 isn't it?
Yes, it is.
www.loadsofpeople.co.uk/ef_12592.html#8
Well, some of this info is slightly wrong.
David Wilson NICOL was b 2 Jun 1877. I have that birth certificate.
Their marriage was 27 Feb 1900. I have that certificate too.
I do not have David's death certificate.
Have you checked Elsie's death to see what it said about her parents?
No, not done that either. Think that might be the next option. But the website details you sent have the same parents as those she named in the marriage certificate. However, I might just see what that says.
I browsed the 1891 and 1901 for FINDLAY a labourer at gas works this afternoon till my eyes were out on sticks, but nothing came up.
Looked for Elspet jnr in 1881 (aged 2)but she's nowhere. She's definitely not with her father-in-law's side; so that just leaves the Findlay side?????
It's a real mystery
Thanks for all your input so far.
PS: Just seen your latest post. She named her parents on the marriage certificate as John Findlay, labourer at gas works and Elspet Jane Findlay MS Pirie. However, on Maggie Bell Nicol's birth certificate, the mother signed as Elsie Findlay. Father also signed as David W Nicol - because they were not yet married!
Thank you too for the 1911 index. Where did you get that from?
I wonder if I'll sleep tonight?
Thank you again.
Suzie
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The 1911 census details are from just doing general searches on SP. As always, the original image would be worth checking.
Monica
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Did Elsie's mum show as alive or deceased when she married in 1900?
Monica
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No, not marked as deceased. Just checked very in file.
Suzie (on iPad so laptop shut down!)
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More to rule them out
John and Jane Findlay nee Pirie are living in the St Nicholas Area of Aberdeen in 1891 with their family including their daughter Elsie Ann age 12 have you checked this John for his occupation
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As posted by MonicaL, Elspet 'Elsie' Jane Findlay was born 7/12/1879.
Birth on SP shows registered as Elsie Jane Findlay born 7/12/1879, dau. of John Findlay, seaman Merchant Service and Jane Pirie married 1/10/1872 Portsoy, Banffshire (1881 census shows both John and Jane born Portsoy Banffshire. On 1891 census shown as Elsie, on 1881 Jane!
By 1891 John Findlay is indeed a labourer- went from fisherman, to Merchant seaman to labourer.
Marriage of John and Jane on Ancestry shows John Findlay married Jane Perrie 1/10/1872 Fordyce, Banff but there are 2 entries on SP - same marriage as have same reference number - one showing Pirie, the other Perrie. Looked at original on SP:
John Findlay 23 Fisherman married Jane Perrie (as written) on 1/10/1872 Fordyce, Banff. John is shown as son of William Findlay, fisherman and Catherine nee Wood. Jane is shown as daughter of Alexander Pirie (as written), fisherman and Anne nee Thain.
Mother Jane Pirie was baptised as 'Jean' Pirie in 1847 Fordyce, Banff per familysearch.
So, her mother never actually had the name Elspet Jane Pirie, just Jane (or Jean, interchangeable).
Annette
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I thought this was John Findlay in 1901:
John Findlay 52 General Labourer b. Cullen
James Findlay 19 General Labourer b. Aberdeen
Mary Findlay 13 b. Aberdeen
Address: 46 Lang Acre, Aberdeen
Not sure where Jane Pirie is, which is why I was checking whether she was possibly deceased.
Monica
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No surprising really, from what has been discussed. Re Elsie's death reg., she was a widow by 1952, daughter Maggie was the informant.
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On FindMyPast in 1901 John Findlay is shown as married - searched for Jane and closest I found was a Jane Findlay 52 - married - shown as a patient. No birthplace given, nor address just in regn. district of Old Machar, Aberdeen. Can't find corresponding entry on ancestry.
Annette
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Could well be her, Annette.
From her death reg in 1922, she looks to have been ill for many years. John Findlay, shows as a labourer and already deceased.
We need some other family connection that refers to him as a gasworks labourer to link more directly to Elsie...
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Going back a little, this was the 1891 Findlay entry:
John Findlay 46
Jane Pirie Findlay 43
Catherine Ann Findlay 18
John Findlay 15
Maggie Findlay 15
William Findlay 13
Elsie Ann Findlay 12
James Findlay 10
Isabella Findlay 5
Mary Findlay 3
Address: 14 Chapel Lane, Aberdeen
Sister Catherine Ann married in 1896 to a James Williamson. Wondering if this is the same James Williamson who was one of the witnesses to the marriage of Elsie and David in 1900?
Monica
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Witnesses were James Jamieson and James Williamson.
A witness to the marriage of Catherine Ann to James Williamson was also a James Jamieson...
Father John back to showing as a seaman, merchant service. Likely he took the work on as it came.
Monica
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Sister Maggie married an Alexander Thompson in 1899. She called one of her daughters b. 1906...Elsie Nicol Thompson.
www.ancestry.com/genealogy/records/margaret-findlay_51926886
Monica
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Hopefully you will be able to trace the admission records to the Aberdeen Royal Lunatic Asylum! One of my ancestors was admitted in 1900 & stayed there till his death in 1917. The archivist game me lots of information on him. Aberdeen University (special collections) can be emailed, & a request made to Fiona Musk about the information available.
regards,
flst
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Hopefully you will be able to trace the admission records to the Aberdeen Royal Lunatic Asylum! One of my ancestors was admitted in 1900 & stayed there till his death in 1917. The archivist game me lots of information on him.
You may have to wait a while - IIRC you are not allowed to see records of people who died less than 100 years ago.
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To Monica and Annette.
Thank you for all your input so far.
Annette...I saw your suggestion of John and Jane. I too downloaded that birth of Jane Pirie and saw the parent's marriage noted on there. Dowloaded that too but it is not the right family because Jane Pirie named her parents as Alexander Pirie and Jane MS Thain (I think it was). Elspet's parents were William Pirie and Jane DUNN. In addition, it cannot have been my Elspet that married in Portsoy in 1872 as she would only have been 9 years old!!
Every time Elspet mentioned her parents in documents, they are down as Elspet Jane Pirie and John Findlay.
Mother Elspet Jane b 1863. Parents William Pirie and Jane Dunn.
Daughter Elspet Jane b 1879 Parents John Findlay and Elspet Jane Pirie
The daughter did sign her name as Elsie Findlay on her own daughter's birth certificate.
I now need to look at all the other responses.
Thank you to you both and everyone....we'll get there in the end.
Suzie
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Sorry - what I posted was not a 'suggestion' but fact! Both Monica and I have explained step by step what the actual facts are.
Yes, on her marriage and death certificate it states her mothers name as Elspet Jane Pirie which you seem to cling to. Perhaps she grew up believing she was named after her mother hence entering her mothers name this way. Who can say?
Yes, there was one Elspet Jane Pirie born in 1863 to a William Pirie and Jane Dunn. However, after 1871 this person 'disappears' from all records - indeed, not on census, not on marriages, no death that I can find (and not with family in 1881). You, yourself, have not been able to find her either, hence the reason for this post.
Fact - when David Nicol married in 1900 the bride gives her name as Elspet Jane Findlay - however, there is no birth for an Elspet Jane Findlay ca. 1879, nor indeed an Elspet Jane Pirie (if had been born illegitimately). Likewise, there is no John Findlay married to an Elspet Jane Pirie. This whole 'dilemma' seems to be because of the use of 'Elspet' - she was actually born Elsie Jane Findlay and her father was indeed a John Findlay, and her mother a Pirie who was actually plain Jane Pirie and not an Elspet Jane.
We can't force you to believe us, of course - can only give you the actual facts which are that Elspet Jane Findlay who married David Nicol was actually Elsie Jane Findlay, and that her parents were John Findlay and plain Jane Pirie - she is on the census with them in 1881 and 1891.
Annette
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Annette,
I am obviously going to have to look at this again. I apologise if I have offended you and Monica - tat was NOT my intention at all. I admit I haven't got round to finding the 1881 and 1891 censuses you mention, but will do so shortly. If they are not on Ancestry, I have a friend who has FindMyPast and they might be there.
But I did find an Elsie Pirie aged 17 at 31 Bank Street, Old Machar as a domestic servant in 1881.
(ED38/148/123). That could tie in with Elspet aged 7 with her family in 1871.
Sometimes I find I can't think outside the box quick enough with conundrums like this!!!
Thank you again,
Suzie
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I admit I haven't got round to finding the 1881 and 1891 censuses you mention, but will do so shortly. If they are not on Ancestry, I have a friend who has FindMyPast and they might be there.
They are not on either Ancestry or FindMyPast, though one or other of those, or indeed Family Search, or all three, may have a transcription or index (both of which may contain errors). The originals are only available at Scotland's People www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk, and they may contain information not included in the transcriptions or indexes on those web sites.
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Hi everyone
Could this all be caused by minister/registrar in 1900s deciding that Elsie must be a nick-name and that Elsie's real name ought to be Elspet? When transcribing you come across nicknames, or family names ... and now and then a minister will decide that it really ought to be "a proper name" so Sukey becomes Susannah, Sally to Sarah...and in my family, Maggie became Margaret...!
Mumblings...
Jacqui
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Quite possibly. Elsie originated as a pet name for Elspet(h) so it's not unreasonable. But such names should never be 'corrected' by a trabscriber - they should be transcribed as written.
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https://www.abdn.ac.uk/special-collections/documents/NHS%20Grampian%20Archives%20-%20DPA%20Factsheet.pdf
Luckily records are only closed for 75 years for a deceased person & not 100 years. Click on this link to read more.
flst
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I could not agree more about transcribing names as written; unfortunately clerks and clerics did not always use the form of the name that the family used! Get a change of cleric in a parish and suddenly the given names change: Henry becomes Harry, and so on.
A query at a recent help desk took some time to unravel: England/Wales GRO indexers in 1917 converted the L in a surname to T, making a completely different, and existing, surname! It happens...
Jacqui
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Luckily records are only closed for 75 years for a deceased person & not 100 years. Click on this link to read more.
Oh, good. I was sure it was 100 at one time because I wasn't allowed to look at one set of records for someone who died in about 1915. 75 is an improvement on that!
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A number of other main findings make me confident you are on the right line with the family of John Findlay and Jane Pirie that we have been discussing.
You have a birth cert in 1879 in Aberdeen for a Elspet Jane Findlay to these parents. This age and birth place fits with her census entries and marriage and death regs.
You have her in the 1881 and 1891 censuses with her family.
The witnesses at her marriage in 1900 to David Wilson Nicol. One is likely her brother in law, James Williamson. The other, James Jamieson, likely also acted as witness to sister Catherine's wedding to James Williamson.
Other sister Maggie (could this be a source to the name Elsie gave to daughter born before she married?) called one of her daughters born 1906, Elsie Nicol Thomson.
These are just some of the things we have been discussing above.
Monica
ADDED: If you, I would certainly follow up on flst's suggestion on medical records.
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Thank you so much...I am feel as if I am on track now (minus the name Elspeth!!!!!!!)
We'll be in touch.
Suzie
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Hello list
Overnight, Suzie allowed me sight of the assembled copy records [thank you everyone for sharing] and this is my personal conclusion...
Elsie Jane is born as that. The first occurrence of her as Elspet Jane is her marriage, and from then on, on official documents, she is Elspet Jane. Why? Did she dislike Elsie and revert to Elspet? Or did the minister at her marriage suggest/decide that Elsie was the diminutive form of Elspet and that Elspet is what she SHOULD use "officially"? There is no doubt that Elsie Jane is Elspet Jane from evidence of age, birth registration, parents on census, etc.
But why was ‘Elspet Jane’ given as Elsie Jane’s mother? Elsie Jane and her sisters (from their marriages) knew their mother was “plain Jane”. My personal take is that either the minister, or the registrar, made an error and simply used the bride’s name also as the mother’s name. Once set in ink, it was taken as being hard evidence…until proved otherwise. And that proving was only possible thanks to help of several Listers!
It boils down to not relying on one single record - even of "official" one - without supporting evidence! And this copy marriage registration had two misleading items, so pick every document apart and find other evidence because even registrars and clerics can get it wrong when copying details!
Jacqui