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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Banffshire => Topic started by: Kirsty Edwards on Friday 23 March 18 14:47 GMT (UK)
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Ellen or, Helen Bain was my great-grandmother.
I'm trying to trace her death, if she got married and generally anything else about her. I've tried searching through scotlands people but I could be using it wrong etc and would appreciate a fresh pair of eyes.
This is what I have so far -
She gave birth to my grandfather, John Myron, July 1913. Father was Morris Myron a carpenter while Helen is listed as a domestic servant. John was born illegitimately in Dufftown. On Johns marriage cert to my g/ma Helen is listed as Helen Myron m/s bain so is still alive in 1942. I could not find a marriage cert for Morris & Helen. Morris died in 1944, Dufftown and is listed as single on his DC.
It was suggested Helen maybe changed from Ellen and found a Ellen Bain born SEP 1872 • Little Bregach, Aberlour, Banffshire, Scotland. I'm unsure if this is the right Helen. I searched death records for Ellen b. 1872 and one comes up d. 1921 50years but that's not her as the parents are different from the Ellen b. 1872.
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Hi ,
Is there any address given on John's birth certificate ?
ev
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Hi ,
Is there any address given on John's birth certificate ?
ev
Yes there are two - I've attached the BC
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Valuation Rolls:
Helen/Ellen Bain shows as the tenant/occupier from 1915 right through to 1935
BAIN
ELLEN
MISS
Tenant Occupier
HOUSE NO 36 BALVENIE STREET
MORTLACH
1915
VR009100092-
BAIN
HELEN
Tenant Occupier
HOUSE 36 BALVENIE STREET
MORTLACH
1935
VR009100105-
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Thanks Anne. Yes I have those. Perhaps she didn't die in Scotland? unlikely though
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I see from the SP index that there is just one (H)el(l)en Bain of childbearing age in Mortlach in the 1911 census. Have you looked at this to see if she was at 36 Balvenie Street and if so, where she was born?
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I see from the SP index that there is just one (H)el(l)en Bain of childbearing age in Mortlach in the 1911 census. Have you looked at this to see if she was at 36 Balvenie Street and if so, where she was born?
Doesn't help me that much. Looks like she was a servant at 36 Balvenie Street
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The point is that it's the same address so it's almost certainly the same person. Where does the census say she was born?
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The entry below Helen in the 1911 census. Is baby William a Bain?
In 1901, there is this entry at 41 Balvenie Street Mortlach:
Peter Bain 54 shoemaker b. Speymouth, Morayshire
Helen Bain 28 daughter, housekeeper b. glenrinnes, Banffshire
Elizabeth Bain 10 grandchild b. Mortlach, Banffshire
Jeanie Bain 7 grandchild b. Mortlach, Banffshire
James Smith 6 Months grandchild b. Mortlach, Banffshire
Details for this family show on page 5 of this doc www.brebner.com/uploads/bre13379.pdf
Monica
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The point is that it's the same address so it's almost certainly the same person. Where does the census say she was born?
oh yes it would definitely be the same Helen / Ellen. It doesn't have her DOB just says 38years which matches up born in Aberlour, Banffshires
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Does it not show her place of birth in her 1911 entry?
Monica
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The entry below Helen in the 1911 census. Is baby William a Bain?
In 1901, there is this entry at 41 Balvenie Street Mortlach:
Peter Bain 54 shoemaker b. Speymouth, Morayshire
Helen Bain 28 daughter, housekeeper b. glenrinnes, Banffshire
Elizabeth Bain 10 grandchild b. Mortlach, Banffshire
Jeanie Bain 7 grandchild b. Mortlach, Banffshire
James Smith 6 Months grandchild b. Mortlach, Banffshire
Details for this family show on page 5 of this doc www.brebner.com/uploads/bre13379.pdf
Monica
Oh are you saying William is Helen's baby?? I have Peter Bain & Isabella Bremner d. 18 May 1896 41 Castle Street, Dufftown as Helen's parents
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Don't know, Kirsty. Just wandering what surname he showed under on that listing.
Monica
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Does it not show her place of birth in her 1911 entry?
Monica
yes, Aberlour
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Don't know, Kirsty. Just wandering what surname he showed under on that listing.
Monica
Also, I'm not sure what 'Br' means in relation to the head ??
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Monica,
9. Isabella Bremner #46498, b. c 1848 in Glass, ABD, SCT,56 d. 18 May 1896, buried in Mortlach Kirkyard, BAN, SCT,57 occupation Farm
Servant.
off your page, she is my 2nd great-grandmother. I have her marriage cert of Peter if you would like it. Edit - sorry only have her death certificate
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Br on census records means Boarder.
Dorrie
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Br on census records means Boarder.
Dorrie
Thanks Dorrie
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Don't know, Kirsty. Just wandering what surname he showed under on that listing.
Monica
Looks like Helen had another illegitimate child
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Like you having problems finding a death certificate for your Helen/Ellen Bain.
The William Bain aged 4 months, Boarder- there is a birth for him on SP for 1910. It is listed under William Tennant Bain.
Can I ask where your grandfather John Myron married and who were the witnesses ? Sometimes this gives us an extra clue.
Dorrie
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Like you having problems finding a death certificate for your Helen/Ellen Bain.
The William Bain aged 4 months, Boarder- there is a birth for him on SP for 1910. It is listed under William Tennant Bain.
Can I ask where your grandfather John Myron married and who were the witnesses ? Sometimes this gives us an extra clue.
Dorrie
both my grandparents have passed now so I've attached the MC - my grandmas brother and sister were
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At least that now rules out any Bain's being witnesses.
Did your grandparents settle in Glasgow after WW2 ?
Still getting nowhere with Helen/Ellen's death, sorry.
Dorrie
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At least that now rules out any Bain's being witnesses.
Did your grandparents settle in Glasgow after WW2 ?
Still getting nowhere with Helen/Ellen's death, sorry.
Dorrie
Yeah it's a bit of an odd one. We know from her sons marriage certificate she and Morris (who she didn't marry) were alive in 1942. They didn't immigrate. My grandparents John & Ann immigrated out to New Zealand in the late 50's. The last document I have of her is that in 1935 she was a servant (still) at 36 BALVENIE STREET, Dufftown, Banffshire, Scotland.
A part from her son's birth cert, William Tennant Bain, I can't find anything further on him either!
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I might have found something on William Tennant Bain as it is quite an unusual middle name.
There is a record on Ancestry which takes you to the National Archives and it reads as follows -
Bain, William Tennant, Warrant Officer Class 2, Service Number 2873412, 1st Battalion The Royal Scots.
Distinguished Conduct Medal - Burma - London Gazette 22nd July 1943.
It might be worth putting this on the WW2 board and see if some of our experts there can come up with anything else.
He is not listed as a casualty in the Commonwealth War Graves Commission so he survived the war.
Dorrie
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Thank you!
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Dorrie, from what you mentioned, medals for William Tennant Bain have been put up for sale http://andrewhartleyfinearts.co.uk/hartleys/lot/view/id/312511/
Monica
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I wonder if this is his wedding notice:
Dover Express Kent, England
12 Mar 1937
LOCAL WEDDING. MR. W. T. BAIN—MISS L. WARD. The wedding took place on Wednesday, March 3rd, at St. James's Church, of Miss Lily Ward, daughter of the late Mr. and Mrs. A. P. Ward, to Mr. William Tennant Bain, son of Mrs. Bain, and the late Mr. W. T. Bain
View article
Type: FamilyNotice
Monica
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So sad when medals are sold.
MonicaL - looks like I had the wrong William Tennant Bain then. Still everything is worth a try when you have a brick wall.
Dorrie
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looks like I had the wrong William Tennant Bain then.
Unless he was lying to conceal his illegitimacy?
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That is a very valid point Forfarian and a strong possibility.
Dorrie
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I thought it likely too that if we have the right William Tennant Bain, from what you found Dorrie, that he could have given his parents' names as if they were married. The William Tennant name may be that of his reputed father.
Monica
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There is a William b. 1911 and Lily b. 1912 Bain showing in Portsmouth, Hampshire on the 1939 Register of Find My Past www.findmypast.co.uk. I do not have access to the detail. This is what is included in this register www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/1939-register/#4-what-information-can-i-find-in-the-1939-register
A possible for W T Bain following his marriage?
Monica
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William Tennant Bain , died 11th Aug. 1968 Dover England(Probate record)
William T Bain , death 3rd quarter 1968 Folkestone , age 57.(FreeBMD)
ev
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The entry below Helen in the 1911 census. Is baby William a Bain?
In 1901, there is this entry at 41 Balvenie Street Mortlach:
Peter Bain 54 shoemaker b. Speymouth, Morayshire
Helen Bain 28 daughter, housekeeper b. glenrinnes, Banffshire
Elizabeth Bain 10 grandchild b. Mortlach, Banffshire
Jeanie Bain 7 grandchild b. Mortlach, Banffshire
James Smith 6 Months grandchild b. Mortlach, Banffshire
Details for this family show on page 5 of this doc www.brebner.com/uploads/bre13379.pdf
Monica
Just as a further possibility and side note to these searches.
We have Helen Bain likely at home in 1901.
In 1911, she is working as a housekeeper to James Smith. We know from this census that she had just given birth some months ago to William Tennant Bain and he shows with his mum Helen in 1911.
A couple of years later, you have the birth you have been researching of John Myron Bain, son to Morris Myron and Helen Bain.
Back to 1901, and the the entry we have as above. Wondering whether Helen is also the mother to baby James Smith. His birth is registered as James Smith Bain in Mortlach 1900. Could he be the natural son of James Smith that Helen shows as living with in 1911?
Probably a stretch too far..but the 1 yr old Barbara Smith in the 1911 household entry was born and registered in 1909 as Barbara Helen...but can't see a further birth entry under Bain! Added: Barbara was illegitimate, but Helen Bain was not the mother.
Monica
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I wonder if this is his wedding notice:
Dover Express Kent, England
12 Mar 1937
LOCAL WEDDING. MR. W. T. BAIN—MISS L. WARD. The wedding took place on Wednesday, March 3rd, at St. James's Church, of Miss Lily Ward, daughter of the late Mr. and Mrs. A. P. Ward, to Mr. William Tennant Bain, son of Mrs. Bain, and the late Mr. W. T. Bain
View article
Type: FamilyNotice
Monica
Or rather his Son's wedding as Ellen / Hellen Bain appears to not have married.
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I had a few spare credits for SP so I checked out the birth of James Smith or Bain who shows in the 1911 census as grandchild to Peter Bain.
The birth entry is as follows - James Smith Bain born 4/9/1900 at 41 Balvenie Street, Dufftown, Illegitimate, mother signs herself as Nellie Bain, Domestic Servant.
He is a Bain, Monica.
Dorrie
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Good find, Dorrie :) Not sure where he was for 1911 though.
Monica
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Nothing matching under the surname of Bain Monica so I tried Smith.
The census is for Glenrinnes, Aberlour.
William Tennant age 58 widower farmer employer born Aberlour
Maggie Tennant age 25 daughter
James Tennant age 65 brother working on farm
Helen Cameron age 9 months grandaughter
James Stewart age 14 servant
James Smith age 10 servant crossed out to read Boarder born Dufftown.
Was this the same William Tennant who was the father of baby William Tennant Bain? Looks very likely.
Dorrie
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Hi there, John Myron was my father,he passed away in 1967 in New Zealand after we emigrated in 1958,I knew he had a brother (my uncle ) but I never met him,I can vaguely remember my Grandmother ,Ellen /Helen Bain living with us for a very short time , early fifties, as she was on her way south ,I think to live with either a daughter or her Sister, a few years ago I asked my Mother ,who has since passed on , who my dads parents were she said , Morris Myron and Ellen Bain. I can imagine at that time 1910/1913 in a small village such as Dufftown,children born out of wedlock were frowned upon! anyway it was only very recently through my daughters efforts that I found out my Dad and his brother were born out of wedlock , if you want to get in touch you can get me at (*)
Regards Alan
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Hi Alan,
A warm welcome to Rootschat.
That is an amazing piece of information that you have given this morning, thank you. It could be possible then that Ellen/Helen died in New Zealand. Out of curiosity what was your dad's brother's first name?
I am sure that Kirsty Edwards will be back on here soon and see your post.
Dorrie
Edit - Misread information, sorry - take out my reference to Ellen/Helen dying in New Zealand.
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There is a death of an Ellen Bain, aged 91, registered in Dover in the March quarter of 1964. This would fit with her travelling 'south' but not necessarily emigrating. Alan, where were you living when she visited you before you emigrated?
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Forfarian great find.
The death would tie in with her son William Tennant Bain marrying and dying in Dover as per previous posts on this thread. Also her age.
You can't get further south than Dover.
Hope that Alan can confirm where he was living in the early 1950's.
Dorrie
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Think this nails it:
Bain Ellen of 5 Ado Road Dover spinster died 27 December 1963 at the Royal Victoria Hospital Dover. Probate London 28 January 1964 to William Tennant Bain fitter British Railways. [Calendar of Probate]
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Hi yes I think that your correct Ellen traveled south to Dover to live with William ,her eldest son,he William ,was a war hero the recipient of the DCM only the Victoria cross was higher ,it really was sad that I never knew him ,but oh well that's life ,Kirsty will be pleased as she is really into family history,shes my daughter and is married and lives in Kansas USA .
Regards Alan
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Welcome to RootsChat from me too, Alan :)
Thank you for joining in here. This has been such an interesting thread and we are all pleased we seem to have got to the answer for the original question of where did Ellen die. Your new details certainly help here in confirming what we were finding about the family in general.
I suppose the only outstanding question I have is what happened to the first son we found for Ellen, James Smith Bain. Dorrie, great find for 1911 for young James working at the farm of William Tennant.
Not the easiest name to trace though, a James Smith ::)
Monica
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You just beat me to it Monica and can I just add that personally I have found this an interesting challenge.
James Smith Bain will not be easy to find especially if he used the surname of Smith :'(
Alan, please do not judge Ellen too harshly. Back in those days if someone who was in a position of standing in a community or was your employer you dared not refuse to do as they demanded even if it meant becoming an unmarried mother for fear of losing your employment. That would have been even worse than being hauled before the Kirk. Even her father would not have been in a position to challenge what happened to her. Call me an old romantic if you like but I feel very sorry for her. Perhaps this ruined her chances of marriage. We will never know.
Dorrie
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It may be relevant to note that illegitimacy was exceptionally high in Banffshire, even in the context of Scotland, where illegitimacy was higher than in most parts of Europe. C T Smout, in his book A Century of the Scottish People, reports that in 1861-65 16.6% (one in six) births in Banffshire were illegitimate, compared with 4.2% (fewer than one in twenty) in Ross-shire. The stigma associated with illegitimacy in Banffshire was much less than in some other parts, and families in the census with a string of grandchildren are not unusual.
I have in my tree a Banffshire-born relative who had ten children by eight different fathers, only one of whom she actually married (and who was the father of three of the children). So your Helen or Ellen or Nellie Bain is not especially unusual in having several illegitimate children.
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The entry below Helen in the 1911 census. Is baby William a Bain?
In 1901, there is this entry at 41 Balvenie Street Mortlach:
Peter Bain 54 shoemaker b. Speymouth, Morayshire
Helen Bain 28 daughter, housekeeper b. glenrinnes, Banffshire
Elizabeth Bain 10 grandchild b. Mortlach, Banffshire
Jeanie Bain 7 grandchild b. Mortlach, Banffshire
James Smith 6 Months grandchild b. Mortlach, Banffshire
Details for this family show on page 5 of this doc www.brebner.com/uploads/bre13379.pdf
Monica
Back to 1901, and the the entry we have as above. Wondering whether Helen is also the mother to baby James Smith. His birth is registered as James Smith Bain in Mortlach 1900. Could he be the natural son of James Smith that Helen shows as living with in 1911?
Probably a stretch too far..but the 1 yr old Barbara Smith in the 1911 household entry was born and registered in 1909 as Barbara Helen...but can't see a further birth entry under Bain! Added: Barbara was illegitimate, but Helen Bain was not the mother.
Monica
Who was the Mother to Barbara? (if you know). There is one James Smith for Mortlach I took a punt at the certifcate and it appears to be someone else
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If you look back at my post #35 you will see that I found the birth for James Smith/Bain on SP.
Dorrie
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This is the birth record I was talking about
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The illegitimate birth of Barbara Helen Smith, mother was a Janet Leslie.
Monica
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This is the birth record I was talking about
Oh, so do you think Ellen/Hellen was also known as Nellie ?
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This is the birth record I was talking about
Oh, so do you think Ellen/Hellen was also known as Nellie ?
Nellie is a common pet name for Helen, so yes.
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Nothing matching under the surname of Bain Monica so I tried Smith.
The census is for Glenrinnes, Aberlour.
William Tennant age 58 widower farmer employer born Aberlour
Maggie Tennant age 25 daughter
James Tennant age 65 brother working on farm
Helen Cameron age 9 months grandaughter
James Stewart age 14 servant
James Smith age 10 servant crossed out to read Boarder born Dufftown.
Was this the same William Tennant who was the father of baby William Tennant Bain? Looks very likely.
Dorrie
Dorrie, what year was this census? I'd say that it does look very likely. How could I confirm this though?
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Copy of 1911 Scotland Census (hopefully)
Dorrie
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Sorry that has not worked properly as I am not very good at this.
Dorrie
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Dorrie, that has worked dandy ;)
Monica
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Thanks Monica. I must brush up on my technological skills ;D ;D
Dorrie
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The entry below Helen in the 1911 census.
In 1901, there is this entry at 41 Balvenie Street Mortlach:
Peter Bain 54 shoemaker b. Speymouth, Morayshire
Helen Bain 28 daughter, housekeeper b. glenrinnes, Banffshire
Elizabeth Bain 10 grandchild b. Mortlach, Banffshire
Jeanie Bain 7 grandchild b. Mortlach, Banffshire
James Smith 6 Months grandchild b. Mortlach, Banffshire
Monica
By the looks of it Jeanie is also Hellen / Ellens baby :o :o - see attached certificate. Thoughts?
Also re William Tennant Bain marriage to Lily Ward - how can I find if they had children & Lilys parents? (I'm not having much luck on Ancestry). :-\ ???
Thank you all for your help :)
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Also re William Tennant Bain marriage to Lily Ward - how can I find if they had children & Lilys parents? (I'm not having much luck on Ancestry). :-\ ???
Forget about Ancestry.
As it seems that they married in England, go to https://www.freebmd.org.uk/search and search for births using surname Bain and mother's surname Ward. I just did and got 7 results. Then I searched for marriage of a male Bain to a female Ward and got 4. I've listed them chronologically, green for marriages, red for births
Battersea 1931
Elham 1931
Elham 1932
Wandsworth 1933
Elham 1932
Dover 1937
Elham 1937
Hull 1941
Horncastle 1942
Woolwich 1948
Woolwich 1949
Woolwich 1953
So looking at the dates and places I reckon that all but two of these births can be ascribed to one of other of the other couples (Battersea is next door to Wandsworth and it's too early to be WTB and LW's child anyway).
The remaining two are the one in Hull in 1941 and the one in Horncastle in 1942. They are far enough apart in time to be siblings, but both places are a long way from Dover. But it was wartime, so it's very possible that Lily was evacuated from Dover to somewhere safer to have her babies. On the other hand, the mother of the Elham babies could be the one who was evacuated. I can't think of any easy way to find out, short of sending off for copies of the birth certificates.
Digression - The William Bain and Lily I Bain in Portsmouth in the 1939 Register are not your William Tennant Bain and Lily Ward. Four reasons. First, that William Bain hasn't given a middle initial, though yours was almost always named with the initial anywhere else. Second, his date of birth is 22 December 1911, and we know from William Tennant Bain's birth certificate that he was born on 25 November 1910. Third, that William Bain is a stoker in the Royal Navy, but we know that your William Tennant Bain served in the Army, in the Royal Scots. Fourth, a William C Bain married a Lily I Restell in Portsmouth in 1935. Lily Irene Bain, born 7 November 1912, died in Portsmouth in 2004. This DoB matches the one in Portsmouth in the 1939 Register. William Charles Bain, DoB 29 [sic] December 1911, died in Portsmouth in 1999. So this couple is a complete red herring.
However I can't find William Tennant Bain, or Lily Bain née Ward, in the 1939 register. If he was a regular soldier before the war, they could have been stationed somewhere not in England ior Wales.
We know from the marriage notice that Lily's parents were Mr and Mrs A P Ward; that they lived in Dover; and that they were deceased by 1937. The marriage notice doesn't give her middle initial but it does give his. So I think we are looking for a plain Lily Ward.
The only birth of a plain Lily Ward in Kent between 1900 and 1921 was in Dover in 1911. According to the GRO web site the maiden surname of the mother of that Lily Ward was Menpes. An Irene May Ward, mother's surname Menpes, was born in Dover in 1909.
The 1911 census lists a family at 72 St James' Street, Dover consisting of Alfred Partridge Ward, wife Kate and four children including Irene, aged 1. Alfred and Kate had been married 10 years. And bingo! there is a marriage of Alred Partridge Ward to Kate Menpes in Dover in 1901. An Alfred P Ward, 39, died in Dover in 1913, and a Kate Ward, 52, died in Dover in 1929.
The only death of a Lily Bain born in 1911 that I have found was of a 93-year-old, born 16th April 1911, died in South-east Hampshire in September 2004.
So I think that Lily was born on 16 April 1911 in Dover, probably at 72 St James' Street, and her parents were Alfred Partridge Ward and Kate Menpes.
Does that help? You would, of course, need to confirm all that by getting all the relevant certificates. I could easily have got it all wrong!
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Hi Kirsty,
To answer your question about the birth you have found for a Jane Wallace Bain in 1893. I would think that she is also Ellen/Helen's natrual daughter.
There is a Jane Bain in the 1911 Scotland Census aged 17 - Mortlach - which you could look at.
From there you could search for a marriage for Jane/Jeannie Bain. One possibility is a marriage in 1924 of a Jane Bain to an Alexander Porter in Cullen which is only around 26 miles from Dufftown. It is the only one in Banffshire for the period 1911 to 1931.
As you know these are all available on Scotlands People (sorry I have no credits at the moment to look for you.)
Dorrie
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From there you could search for a marriage for Jane/Jeannie Bain. One possibility is a marriage in 1924 of a Jane Bain to an Alexander Porter in Cullen which is only around 26 miles from Dufftown. It is the only one in Banffshire for the period 1911 to 1931.
LIBINDX has what seems to be two listings for Jane Bain, partner Alexander Porter.
One listing says that she died in Mosstodloch on 1 August 1973 aged 67, and is buried in Essil kirkyard. The other says that she was born in Cullen on 23 May 1906, parents Robert Bain and Jessie Ann Mitchell. Her mother was born in Cullen and married Robert Bain in Cullen in 1902. So I don't think the 1924 marriage is the daughter of Helen/Ellen/Nellie Bain from Mortlach. But the certificate would confirm or otherwise.
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If we forget the marriage to Alexander Porter which now looks unlikely to be her and concentrate on finding a death for her assuming she remained single the following may be worth looking at -
Jane Wallace Bain died 1964 aged 70 registered in Glasgow (North) Scotlands People ref 645/3 939.
Note the middle name of Wallace.
Dorrie
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If we forget the marriage to Alexander Porter which now looks unlikely to be her and concentrate on finding a death for her assuming she remained single the following may be worth looking at -
Jane Wallace Bain died 1964 aged 70 registered in Glasgow (North) Scotlands People ref 645/3 939.
Note the middle name of Wallace.
Dorrie
Age 70 is 1964 is spot on for a birth in 1893, if her birthday was later in the year than the day she died.
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She was born 18/12/1893 see reply #58 for her birth certificate.
As we know depending on who registered the death the age can be a little out.
Worth looking at this death I would say.
Dorrie
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She was born 18/12/1893 see reply #58 for her birth certificate.
As we know depending on who registered the death the age can be a little out.
Indeed, but her birthday was 18 December. If she died at any time in 1964 up to and including 17 December, she would still have been only 70 years old. Only if she died in the last two weeks of 1964 would she have been 71.
Her death was the 939th death registered in Glasgow North in 1964. There were at least another 176 after that, because I have found one numbered 1115. There could have been more after that, of course, but let's assume that there weren't. 1115 deaths divided by 52 weeks gives an average of 21 deaths a week. So you would expect, on average, 42 deaths between 18 and 31 December. But there were actually 176 deaths, or about 8 average weeks' worth, registered after that of Jane Wallace Bain.
So if my assumption is reasonable, I would expect her death to have occurred in late October or early November, before she turned 71 (which would have been on 18 December 1964).
If my assumption is incorrect, and there were significantly more than 1115 deaths registered in Glasgow North in 1964, it would mean that she died even earlier in the year, and even longer before her 71st birthday.
So her age is almost certainly exactly correct, and the death is almost certainly that of Helen/Ellen/Nellie's daughter.
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She was born 18/12/1893 see reply #58 for her birth certificate.
As we know depending on who registered the death the age can be a little out.
Worth looking at this death I would say.
Dorrie
1964 is correct. She never married by the looks of things
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The entry below Helen in the 1911 census. Is baby William a Bain?
In 1901, there is this entry at 41 Balvenie Street Mortlach:
Peter Bain 54 shoemaker b. Speymouth, Morayshire
Helen Bain 28 daughter, housekeeper b. glenrinnes, Banffshire
Elizabeth Bain 10 grandchild b. Mortlach, Banffshire
Jeanie Bain 7 grandchild b. Mortlach, Banffshire
James Smith 6 Months grandchild b. Mortlach, Banffshire
Monica
It seems illegitimate children ran in the family. Elizabeth was Helen's Sisters child, Jemima. I can't make out Jemima's married name on Elizabeth's DC - who sadly died at 10 years at her grandparents house.
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And died in the first half of November, as I surmised.
BTW 133 Balornock Road is Stobhill Hospital. It's not unusual, when people die in an institution, for the death certificate just to have a street address without the name of the institution being listed.
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I can't make out Jemima's married name on Elizabeth's DC
I think it's Pirrie.
Jamima Isabella Bain married James Pirrie in Mortlach in 1895.
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Just catching up with everything....
Can anyone make out the name of Jane Wallace Bain's daughter who reported her death?
Married surname McSteen? Living at 48 Rees Gardens, Croydon.
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The initials look like DG.
There is a Gladys Davidson Bain born in Mortlach in 1915 - possibly her?
Away to see if I can find a marriage for her in Scotland.
Dorrie
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Gladys D Bain married William H McSteen 1943, Croydon, Surrey.
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No marriage in Scotland but on FreeBMD there is a marriage for a Gladys D Bain in March 1943, Croydon. That fits with the Croydon address on her mother's death registration.
Dorrie
You just beat me to it weeaza
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Just found this https://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=DESC&db=keith8157&id=P-527455496
Monica
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Totally of Topic but Scotlands People will be unavailable from 5.00 pm Wednesday 28th March until Thursday 29th March at 3.00 pm for essential maintenance.
Great find Monica hope Kirsty comes back online soon.
Dorrie
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From these details, this likely birth:
GLADYS DAVIDSON BAIN 1915 ref 162/ 28 - Mortlach
Monica
ADDED: Yes, noticed that SP is off line tomorrow. That sometimes can mean lots of new additions :o but then, I am always hopeful ;)
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BTW 133 Balornock Road is Stobhill Hospital. It's not unusual, when people die in an institution, for the death certificate just to have a street address without the name of the institution being listed.
That's interesting - good to know. Why is that??
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From these details, this likely birth:
GLADYS DAVIDSON BAIN 1915 ref 162/ 28 - Mortlach
Monica
ADDED: Yes, noticed that SP is off line tomorrow. That sometimes can mean lots of new additions :o but then, I am always hopeful ;)
Good spotting - I couldn't make out the witness on Jane's DC as her daughter!
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Why is that??
I don't really know, but maybe it was thought that it was more tactful. I can certainly see that in the case of a prison or mental hospital or poorhouse.
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FreeBMD has two births of McSteens, mother's surname, Bain, both registered in Croydon. I can't post names etc as they may still be living.
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Why is that??
I don't really know, but maybe it was thought that it was more tactful. I can certainly see that in the case of a prison or mental hospital or poorhouse.
See here for example in respect of births in workhouses/poorhouses www.workhouses.org.uk/addresses/
Monica
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Also re William Tennant Bain marriage to Lily Ward - how can I find if they had children & Lilys parents? (I'm not having much luck on Ancestry). :-\ ???
Forget about Ancestry.
As it seems that they married in England, go to https://www.freebmd.org.uk/search and search for births using surname Bain and mother's surname Ward. I just did and got 7 results. Then I searched for marriage of a male Bain to a female Ward and got 4. I've listed them chronologically, green for marriages, red for births
Battersea 1931
Elham 1931
Elham 1932
Wandsworth 1933
Elham 1932
Dover 1937
Elham 1937
Hull 1941
Horncastle 1942
Woolwich 1948
Woolwich 1949
Woolwich 1953
So looking at the dates and places I reckon that all but two of these births can be ascribed to one of other of the other couples (Battersea is next door to Wandsworth and it's too early to be WTB and LW's child anyway).
The remaining two are the one in Hull in 1941 and the one in Horncastle in 1942. They are far enough apart in time to be siblings, but both places are a long way from Dover. But it was wartime, so it's very possible that Lily was evacuated from Dover to somewhere safer to have her babies. On the other hand, the mother of the Elham babies could be the one who was evacuated. I can't think of any easy way to find out, short of sending off for copies of the birth certificates.
Digression - The William Bain and Lily I Bain in Portsmouth in the 1939 Register are not your William Tennant Bain and Lily Ward. Four reasons. First, that William Bain hasn't given a middle initial, though yours was almost always named with the initial anywhere else. Second, his date of birth is 22 December 1911, and we know from William Tennant Bain's birth certificate that he was born on 25 November 1910. Third, that William Bain is a stoker in the Royal Navy, but we know that your William Tennant Bain served in the Army, in the Royal Scots. Fourth, a William C Bain married a Lily I Restell in Portsmouth in 1935. Lily Irene Bain, born 7 November 1912, died in Portsmouth in 2004. This DoB matches the one in Portsmouth in the 1939 Register. William Charles Bain, DoB 29 [sic] December 1911, died in Portsmouth in 1999. So this couple is a complete red herring.
However I can't find William Tennant Bain, or Lily Bain née Ward, in the 1939 register. If he was a regular soldier before the war, they could have been stationed somewhere not in England ior Wales.
We know from the marriage notice that Lily's parents were Mr and Mrs A P Ward; that they lived in Dover; and that they were deceased by 1937. The marriage notice doesn't give her middle initial but it does give his. So I think we are looking for a plain Lily Ward.
The only birth of a plain Lily Ward in Kent between 1900 and 1921 was in Dover in 1911. According to the GRO web site the maiden surname of the mother of that Lily Ward was Menpes. An Irene May Ward, mother's surname Menpes, was born in Dover in 1909.
The 1911 census lists a family at 72 St James' Street, Dover consisting of Alfred Partridge Ward, wife Kate and four children including Irene, aged 1. Alfred and Kate had been married 10 years. And bingo! there is a marriage of Alred Partridge Ward to Kate Menpes in Dover in 1901. An Alfred P Ward, 39, died in Dover in 1913, and a Kate Ward, 52, died in Dover in 1929.
The only death of a Lily Bain born in 1911 that I have found was of a 93-year-old, born 16th April 1911, died in South-east Hampshire in September 2004.
So I think that Lily was born on 16 April 1911 in Dover, probably at 72 St James' Street, and her parents were Alfred Partridge Ward and Kate Menpes.
Does that help? You would, of course, need to confirm all that by getting all the relevant certificates. I could easily have got it all wrong!
Thank you for this - for some reason I've just seen this. It would look like you are correct!
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Have just joined and I see that some of you are interested in my mother - Gladys Davidson Bain.
If I can help then please get in touch. also I would like to know any connections you ahve with her.
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For Kirsty EdwaRDS
William and Lily Bain were my Great Uncle and Aunt and the Uncle and Aunt of my mother - Gladys Davidson Bain. Would be interested to know why you are interested in them,
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For Dowdstree
Gladys Davidson Bain was my mother so get in touch if you want to find out more and also to let me know what your connection is with her.
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Hi mrmac a warm welcome to Roots Chat from me.
I do not have any connection to Gladys Davidson Bain. Just one of the many people on here who give their time and expertise free to help others with their family history.
The lady who posted the original query back in 2018 was Kirsty Edwards and her great grandmother was Ellen /Helen Bain.
Kirsty was last on here about 1 month ago so hopefully she will see your post before too long and be in touch.
Dorrie
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Hi mrmac ,regarding your query about William Tennant Bain ,well it is my daughter Kirsty Edwards who has done extensive research on the Bain family originally from Dufftown Scotland ,William Tennent Bain was my fathers half brother ,same mother ,Ellen Bain ,different fathers,it appears all Ellens children were illegitimate , apparently common at that time and place ,so he ,William , was an WW2 hero he received an DSC medal for his actions in Burma , he settled in Dover , married a Lily Ward ,my grandmother Ellen lived with then and passed away 1963 in Dover , Kirsty was trying to discover William and Lillies children to add to the tree , if you can look at it is amazing ,believe me,Kirsty at the moment is in Glasgow ,however she has dual citizenship UK /NZ as she was born in NZ. Hope that helps Kirsty knows a lot more about the Bain family than me .....
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William and Lily Bain were my Great Uncle and Aunt and the Uncle and Aunt of my mother - Gladys Davidson Bain.
Hmmmm.
William was born in 1910, mother Helen/Nellie Bain. Gladys was born in 1915, mother Jemima Isabella Bain. Does that not mean that William and Gladys were cousins, not uncle and niece?
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For Dowdstree
Gladys Davidson Bain was my mother so get in touch if you want to find out more and also to let me know what your connection is with her.
Is this Ken? this is the same Kirsty you are emailing
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The illegitimate birth of Barbara Helen Smith, mother was a Janet Leslie.
Monica, I think this Janet might be one of mine. Can you tell me anything else about her?
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Hi Forfarian
I didn't do any further searches on who Janet Leslie was unfortunately. She came up as you can see as the mother of a Barbara Helen Smith, with some of the similar names we were looking for re Helen Bain.
Monica :)
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I didn't do any further searches on who Janet Leslie was unfortunately. She came up as you can see as the mother of a Barbara Helen Smith, with some of the similar names we were looking for re Helen Bain.
I wondered if you had viewed the birth certificate and might be able to tell me the address where Barbara was born, and her DoB.
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Hi again Mrmac , found this When Gladys Davidson Bain was born on April 26, 1915, her mother, Jane, was 21. She married William Henry McSteen in 1943 in Croydon, Surrey, England. They had two children during their marriage. She died on July 23, 1996, in Croydon, Surrey, England, at the age of 81. it appears that Ellen Bain was your great grandmother ,William Tennant was your great uncle ,John Myron (Bain ) my father, was your great uncle and Janet Bain your grandmother , we are second cousins and Kirsty would be third cousin.
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When Jane 'Jeanie' Wallace Bain was born on December 18, 1893, her mother, Ellen, was 21. She had one daughter in 1915. She died on November 11, 1964, at the age of 70.
Family Relationships
Children
Gladys Davidson Bain
Jane 'Jeanie' Wallace Bain
Parents
Unknown Father
Ellen 'Hellen' 'Nellie'
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Alan, you and mrmac are first cousins once removed, and Kirsty and mrmac are first cousins twice removed, not third cousins.
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Hi Forfarian I had a few spare credits for SP so I have attached the birth for Barbara Helen Smith.
Dorrie
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Thanks forfarian ,it gets a bit confusing about cousins ,the whole saga about the Bain family was a complete surprise to me, I had no ,or very little , knowledge about my Fathers family ,all I knew was that he had an brother and a sister nothing about Ellen and her children born out of wedlock , oh well thats life who are we to judge ,thanks again...
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Thank you, Dorrie.
If that address is 57 Balvenie Street, it clinches the identification of Janet Leslie with the one in my tree, so that's another twig to add.
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My pleasure Forfarian.
The address could well be 57 Balvenie Street.
Dorrie
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Forfarian I have just had a look at the 1901 Census and Janet Leslie is aged 22 living at 57 Balvenie Street, Dufftown.
Also listed is her father Alexander Leslie - aged 59
Her Mother - Isabella Leslie - aged 51
Her sister - Mary Leslie - aged 20
Her sister - Christina Leslie - aged 13
Her sister - Florence Leslie - aged 7
Hope this helps clinch it for you.
Dorrie
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Thanks, yes, I had that census, which is why the address on the birth clinches it. She had another illegitimate child at the same address in 1910.
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Hi! Forfarian
'William was born in 1910, mother Helen/Nellie Bain. Gladys was born in 1915, mother Jemima Isabella Bain. Does that not mean that William and Gladys were cousins, not uncle and niece?'
Sorry but the above is not quite right. It is as I said - my grandmother was Jane 'Jeanie' Wallace Bain.
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All very confusing!
William Tennant Bain was the half brother of Jane/Jeanie Wallace Bain
therefore he was the half uncle of her daughter Gladys Davidson Bain
therefore he was the half great-uncle of mrmac
John Myron was the son of Helen/Ellen/Nellie Bain
therefore he was the half cousin of Gladys Davidson Bain
therefore he was half first cousin once removed to mrmac
Alan is the son of John Myron
therefore he is half second cousin to mrmac
Kirsty is the granddaughter of John Myron
therefore she is half second cousin once removed to mrmac
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hi Forfarian my father John Myron on his birth certificate only shows Ellen Bain as his mother, no named father ,my mother informed me that Ellen Bain was his mother and a farmer named Morris Myron was his father I assumed that William Tennant was his older brother and Janet Bain his sister I believe there was other siblings it was a very fecund family thats for sure..
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Reply #2 on this thread shows Morris Myron's signature on the birth certificate of John Myron.
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Kirsty
Ellen Bain died in 1963 in Dover - and her probate is in favour of her son, William Tennant Bain
Hope this is of help
If you want to get in touch I will give you anything else I have found
Cheers
Anna
PS I have messaged you on Ancestry on this subject