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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Cardiganshire => Topic started by: squirrelinatree on Saturday 24 March 18 14:08 GMT (UK)
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My great grandfather, James Williams was born in Tremain, Cardiganshire in 1868. I have found him on all the census records and his parents seem to be David Williams (1839, St Mary Cardigan) and Eleanor (1840). Is researching David Williams in Cardiganshire just a lost cause? Any tips please? Thank you
This is them in 1871
Name: David Williams
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Eleanor Williams
Gender: Male
Where born: St Mary, Cardiganshire, Wales
Civil Parish: Tremain
County/Island: Cardiganshire
Country: Wales
Registration district: Cardigan
Sub-registration district: Llandygwydd
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Household schedule number: 24
Piece: 5542
Folio: 76
Page Number: 5
Household Members:
Name Age
David Williams 32
Eleanor Williams 31
John Williams 10
David Williams 9
Benjamin Williams 5
James Williams 2
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WILLIAMS, JAMES mmn MORRIS
GRO Reference: 1868 Dec Quarter in CARDIGAN Volume 11B Page 13
WILLIAMS, BENJAMIN mmn MORRIS
GRO Reference: 1866 June Quarter in CARDIGAN Volume 11B Page 14
Possible marriage
Dec qtr 1859
Morris Eleanor
Williams David
Cardigan 11b 36
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This looks like David, wife and son in 1861 living in Tremain.
David Williams 22 Mason b Cardigan, Cardiganshire, Wales
Elinor Williams 21 b Cardigan, Cardiganshire
John Williams 2/12
Kay
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WILLIAMS, DAVID mmn MORRIS
GRO Reference: 1862 Dec Quarter in CARDIGAN Volume 11B Page 11
WILLIAMS, JOHN mmn MORRIS
GRO Reference: 1861 March Quarter in CARDIGAN Volume 11B Page 12
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Thank you, yes that is the marriage suggested by the MMN on GRO. what are my chances of finding the right birth for David though? Or getting back further?
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If you buy the marriage certificate it should name his father
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First step will be to get the marriage cert and see what that says about his father.
As to going back further - if the marriage cert says his Dad was a Labourer also called David Williams, then it may be challenging. If it says his dad was a Turkish bath attendant called Montmerency Augustus Flavian Williams (for example!) then you may be able to go back with more ease!
Either way you will have got back one more generation with the name of his father!
(Rosie - you say it so much better! )
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I like your explanation lizdb, especially the turkish bath attendant ;D
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Are there any parish records for the area online?
(I have had some success with Monmouthshire, London and some of my other areas of research.)
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First step will be to get the marriage cert and see what that says about his father.
As to going back further - if the marriage cert says his Dad was a Labourer also called David Williams, then it may be challenging. If it says his dad was a Turkish bath attendant called Montmerency Augustus Flavian Williams (for example!) then you may be able to go back with more ease!
Either way you will have got back one more generation with the name of his father!
(Rosie - you say it so much better! )
:D :D I do have Turkish bath attendant on another line of my family.....
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That's 'cos I recently found an ancestor who was sadly widowed by the sinking of the Titanic - her husband was a Turkish Bath Attendent on it. So it had stuck in my mind!
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I am envious, I don't have a Turkish bath attendant :'(
Sorry, I can't see any online records for the marriage
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Thank you for looking and all the advice.
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I suspect it may be this one as he gives place of birth as St Mary's and has a brother Benjamin :-\
1851
HO107 / 2481 f465 p15
David Williams 59 occ Victualler And Carter
Maria 63
Frances 31
Anne 22
Margaret 18
Benjamin 14
David 12
Margaret Harris - Visitor age 30
Maria bn Pembrokeshire rest born Cardiganshire
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First step will be to get the marriage cert and see what that says about his father.
As to going back further - if the marriage cert says his Dad was a Labourer also called David Williams, then it may be challenging. If it says his dad was a Turkish bath attendant called Montmerency Augustus Flavian Williams (for example!) then you may be able to go back with more ease!
I now have the marriage certificate.
His father was also called David Williams, 🙄 A husbandman.
Eleanor’s father was called John Morris. Also a husbandman.
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another possible David in Cardigan
1851 Gors, Cardigan HO107/2481 folio 472 pg 8
David Williams head mar 40 labourer b. Carms, Kenarth
Sarah wife 40 b. Card, Llangoedmor
John son 14 b. Cardigan St Mary
David son 12 b. Cardigan St Mary
Margaret dau 7
The Morrises in 1851
Vronhoil, Kilgerran HO107/2481 folio 294 pg 26
John Morris head mar 42 farm labour b. Pembs, Manordeifi
Ann wife 42 b. Carms, Kenarth
Eleanor dau 11 b.Cards, Llandygwyd
Sarah dau 10 b. Llandygwyd
Hannah dau 7 b. Llandygwyd
Benjamin son 5 b. Pembs, Kilgerran
James son 2 b. Kilgerran
Martha Francis visitor 6 b. Kilgerran
mother's maiden name from birth regs for Sarah, Benjamin & James is Rees
Possible marriage in Manordeifi 3 July 1834 for John Morris & Anne Rees, both otp, both mark, witnesses Thomas Thomas & Thomas Evan.
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Based on their ages on the marriage certificate David Williams was born 1838 and residence at time of marriage in 1859 is Gors.
Eleanor Morris born 1837, can’t decipher the residence for her.
Both made a mark.
Witnesses David Lewis and Evan Thomas
Marriage took place at Cilfowyn Baptist Chapel
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so the David son of David & Sarah looks more likely as their residence is Gors family still there in 1861 RG9/4175 folio 55 pg 8.
I've got Baptist forebears in this area as well. You should find marriages in the established church, the Baptist churches often had their own burial grounds, but you'll not find infant baptisms, only possibly naming rolls or births to members.
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Agreed, the Gors family seems likely.
Strangely, on the 1861,1871 and 1881 they give Eleanor’s age as a year younger than David’s and yet on the marriage cert she is older. :/
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possibly to cover up that she was under age at marriage? Under 21, there would have been a question of consent.
;)
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The Morrises in 1851
Vronhoil, Kilgerran HO107/2481 folio 294 pg 26
John Morris head mar 42 farm labour b. Pembs, Manordeifi
Ann wife 42 b. Carms, Kenarth
Eleanor dau 11 b.Cards, Llandygwyd
Sarah dau 10 b. Llandygwyd
Hannah dau 7 b. Llandygwyd
Benjamin son 5 b. Pembs, Kilgerran
James son 2 b. Kilgerran
Martha Francis visitor 6 b. Kilgerran
mother's maiden name from birth regs for Sarah, Benjamin & James is Rees
Possible marriage in Manordeifi 3 July 1834 for John Morris & Anne Rees, both otp, both mark, witnesses Thomas Thomas & Thomas Evan.
Hm, I thought I had Eleanor’s birth, Cardigan, q2 1839, mmn Evans
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Ah, but GRO does have an Ann Morris MMN Rees in 1839. Perhaps that is her but they actually called her Eleanor because her mother was Ann. :/
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Or she wasn't registered in those early days of civil registration. Not unusual. Her age is given as 2 on the 1841 census which was taken early in June, so sept quarter registration might be stretching it a bit.
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Or she wasn't registered in those early days of civil registration. Not unusual. Her age is given as 2 on the 1841 census which was taken early in June, so sept quarter registration might be stretching it a bit.
Maybe.
The Ann doesn't seem to appear on the later census' but there is a death in 1840 which could well be her, says 5yrs but could be 5mths.
Thank you for your input.
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I have just come back to this thread, in preparation for a visit to the area next week, planning which places to try and find/visit. I have just looked for Gors on Google maps and it appears to be near Aberystwyth. Is there another one, closer to Cardigan?
so the David son of David & Sarah looks more likely as their residence is Gors family still there in 1861 RG9/4175 folio 55 pg 8.
I've got Baptist forebears in this area as well. You should find marriages in the established church, the Baptist churches often had their own burial grounds, but you'll not find infant baptisms, only possibly naming rolls or births to members.
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the Gors of that census entry is within the parish of St Mary, Cardigan. It's the name of the property. Just under the title on this map
https://maps.nls.uk/view/101608630
more modern map, next to the 48 on the left hand side of the map
https://maps.nls.uk/view/189230439
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Ah, that makes far more sense! Thank you very much.
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Do you know the area well? I have been looking at the maps in posts above and looking for addresses on some census entries. Some say Tremain, some Llangoedmor. Could they actually be very close together? I am not sure how the registration districts work. If I am deciphering the writing/welsh correctly I am looking for a Penydefaid in Llangoedmor and I can see Pant-y-defaid north of Tanners’ Hall near Gors on the 1906 map. Could that be it? Also looking for Pantllechau in Tremain.
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not well. Where are the place names from? If they are census entries, could you give the references so we can have a look.
Registration districts are made up of various parishes so for Cardigan registration district see this link
https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/cardigan.html
Map of the parishes
http://web.archive.org/web/20060822031827/http://www.dyfedfhs.org.uk/maps/cgnmap.gif
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Thank you.
We were in the area today and with a bit more research I concluded that Pant-y-defaid was the place I was looking for but I never managed to track down Pantllechau!
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7618/CGNRG10_5541_5543-0304/3473445?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/11677706/person/-420235519/facts/citation/22134851947/edit/record
It will probably be years before we visit again and there is probably nothing specific to see now. I was just curious.
We were also trying to find Vronhoil(?!), Cligerran from this census but had no luck working that one out either.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8861/CGNHO107_2481_2481-0590/15816937?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/11677706/person/-420235335/facts/citation/1140424146203/edit/record
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On the 1861 cencus the name looks more like Fronhaul :-\ https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8768/CGNRG9_4173_4179-0720?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return#?imageId=CGNRG9_4173_4179-0730
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agree with you on that. Neighbouring Llwyncelyn is on this map, but Haven't spotted Fronhaul as yet...
https://maps.nls.uk/view/101608654