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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Cardiganshire => Topic started by: squirrelinatree on Saturday 24 March 18 14:08 GMT (UK)

Title: James Williams 1868
Post by: squirrelinatree on Saturday 24 March 18 14:08 GMT (UK)
My great grandfather, James Williams was born in Tremain, Cardiganshire in 1868. I have found him on all the census records and his parents seem to be David Williams (1839, St Mary Cardigan) and Eleanor (1840). Is researching David Williams in Cardiganshire just a lost cause? Any tips please? Thank you

This is them in 1871
Name:   David Williams
Age:   32
Estimated Birth Year:   abt 1839
Relation:   Head
Spouse's Name:   Eleanor Williams
Gender:   Male
Where born:   St Mary, Cardiganshire, Wales
Civil Parish:   Tremain
County/Island:   Cardiganshire
Country:   Wales
Registration district:   Cardigan
Sub-registration district:   Llandygwydd
ED, institution, or vessel:   4
Household schedule number:   24
Piece:   5542
Folio:   76
Page Number:   5
Household Members:   
Name   Age
David Williams   32
Eleanor Williams   31
John Williams   10
David Williams   9
Benjamin Williams   5
James Williams   2
Title: Re: James Williams 1868
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 24 March 18 14:19 GMT (UK)
WILLIAMS, JAMES       mmn MORRIS     
GRO Reference: 1868  Dec Quarter in CARDIGAN  Volume 11B  Page 13
   
WILLIAMS, BENJAMIN       mmn MORRIS     
GRO Reference: 1866  June Quarter in CARDIGAN  Volume 11B  Page 14

Possible marriage
Dec qtr 1859 
Morris    Eleanor       
Williams    David       
Cardigan    11b   36
Title: Re: James Williams 1868
Post by: Kay99 on Saturday 24 March 18 14:20 GMT (UK)
This looks like David, wife and son in 1861 living in Tremain.

David Williams 22 Mason  b  Cardigan, Cardiganshire, Wales
Elinor Williams 21  b Cardigan, Cardiganshire
John Williams 2/12

Kay
Title: Re: James Williams 1868
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 24 March 18 14:21 GMT (UK)
WILLIAMS, DAVID       mmn MORRIS     
GRO Reference: 1862  Dec Quarter in CARDIGAN  Volume 11B  Page 11   

WILLIAMS, JOHN       mmn MORRIS     
GRO Reference: 1861  March Quarter in CARDIGAN  Volume 11B  Page 12
Title: Re: James Williams 1868
Post by: squirrelinatree on Saturday 24 March 18 14:22 GMT (UK)
Thank you, yes that is the marriage suggested by the MMN on GRO. what are my chances of finding the right birth for David though? Or getting back further?
Title: Re: James Williams 1868
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 24 March 18 14:24 GMT (UK)
If you buy the marriage certificate it should name his father
Title: Re: James Williams 1868
Post by: lizdb on Saturday 24 March 18 14:25 GMT (UK)
First step will be to get the marriage cert and see what that says about his father.

As to going back further - if the marriage cert says his Dad was a Labourer also called David Williams, then it may be challenging.  If it says his dad was a Turkish bath attendant called Montmerency Augustus Flavian Williams (for example!) then you may be able to go back with more ease!

Either way you will have got back one more generation with the name of his father!

(Rosie - you say it so much better! )
Title: Re: James Williams 1868
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 24 March 18 14:27 GMT (UK)
I like your explanation lizdb, especially the turkish bath attendant    ;D
Title: Re: James Williams 1868
Post by: squirrelinatree on Saturday 24 March 18 14:28 GMT (UK)
Are there any parish records for the area online? 

(I have had some success with Monmouthshire, London and some of my other areas of research.)
Title: Re: James Williams 1868
Post by: squirrelinatree on Saturday 24 March 18 14:29 GMT (UK)
First step will be to get the marriage cert and see what that says about his father.

As to going back further - if the marriage cert says his Dad was a Labourer also called David Williams, then it may be challenging.  If it says his dad was a Turkish bath attendant called Montmerency Augustus Flavian Williams (for example!) then you may be able to go back with more ease!

Either way you will have got back one more generation with the name of his father!



(Rosie - you say it so much better! )

 :D :D  I do have  Turkish bath attendant on another line of my family..... 
Title: Re: James Williams 1868
Post by: lizdb on Saturday 24 March 18 14:30 GMT (UK)
That's 'cos I recently found an ancestor who was sadly widowed by the sinking of the Titanic - her husband was a Turkish Bath Attendent on it.  So it had stuck in my mind!
Title: Re: James Williams 1868
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 24 March 18 14:35 GMT (UK)
I am envious, I don't have a Turkish bath attendant  :'(

Sorry, I can't see any online records for the marriage
Title: Re: James Williams 1868
Post by: squirrelinatree on Saturday 24 March 18 14:37 GMT (UK)
Thank you for looking and all the advice.
Title: Re: James Williams 1868
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 24 March 18 15:21 GMT (UK)
I suspect it may be this one as he gives place of birth as St Mary's and has a brother Benjamin  :-\

1851
HO107 / 2481 f465 p15

David   Williams   59   occ    Victualler And Carter   
Maria   63   
Frances   31   
Anne      22   
Margaret   18   
Benjamin   14   
David   12   
Margaret   Harris - Visitor age 30

Maria bn Pembrokeshire rest born Cardiganshire
Title: Re: James Williams 1868
Post by: squirrelinatree on Tuesday 10 April 18 00:26 BST (UK)
First step will be to get the marriage cert and see what that says about his father.

As to going back further - if the marriage cert says his Dad was a Labourer also called David Williams, then it may be challenging.  If it says his dad was a Turkish bath attendant called Montmerency Augustus Flavian Williams (for example!) then you may be able to go back with more ease!


I now have the marriage certificate.

His father was also called David Williams,  🙄 A husbandman.

Eleanor’s father was called John Morris. Also a husbandman.

Title: Re: James Williams 1868
Post by: osprey on Tuesday 10 April 18 10:26 BST (UK)
another possible David in Cardigan

1851 Gors, Cardigan HO107/2481 folio 472 pg 8
David Williams head mar 40 labourer b. Carms, Kenarth
Sarah wife 40 b. Card, Llangoedmor
John son 14 b. Cardigan St Mary
David son 12 b. Cardigan St Mary
Margaret dau 7

The Morrises in 1851
Vronhoil, Kilgerran HO107/2481 folio 294 pg 26
John Morris head mar 42 farm labour b. Pembs, Manordeifi
Ann wife 42 b. Carms, Kenarth
Eleanor dau 11 b.Cards, Llandygwyd
Sarah dau 10 b. Llandygwyd
Hannah dau 7 b. Llandygwyd
Benjamin son 5 b. Pembs, Kilgerran
James son 2 b. Kilgerran
Martha Francis visitor 6 b. Kilgerran
mother's maiden name from birth regs for Sarah, Benjamin & James is Rees

Possible marriage in Manordeifi 3 July 1834 for John Morris & Anne Rees, both otp, both mark, witnesses Thomas Thomas & Thomas Evan.

Title: Re: James Williams 1868
Post by: squirrelinatree on Tuesday 10 April 18 11:07 BST (UK)
Based on their ages on the marriage certificate David Williams was born 1838 and residence at time of marriage in 1859 is Gors.

Eleanor Morris born 1837, can’t decipher the residence for her.

Both made a mark.

Witnesses David Lewis and Evan Thomas

Marriage took place at Cilfowyn Baptist Chapel
Title: Re: James Williams 1868
Post by: osprey on Tuesday 10 April 18 11:41 BST (UK)
so the David son of David & Sarah looks more likely as their residence is Gors family still there in 1861 RG9/4175 folio 55 pg 8.

I've got Baptist forebears in this area as well. You should find marriages in the established church, the Baptist churches often had their own burial grounds, but you'll not find infant baptisms, only possibly naming rolls or births to members.
Title: Re: James Williams 1868
Post by: squirrelinatree on Tuesday 10 April 18 11:45 BST (UK)
Agreed, the Gors family seems likely. 

Strangely, on the 1861,1871 and 1881 they give Eleanor’s age as a year younger than David’s and yet on the marriage cert she is older. :/
Title: Re: James Williams 1868
Post by: osprey on Tuesday 10 April 18 13:49 BST (UK)
possibly to cover up that she was under age at marriage? Under 21, there would have been a question of consent.

 ;)
Title: Re: James Williams 1868
Post by: squirrelinatree on Tuesday 10 April 18 15:35 BST (UK)

The Morrises in 1851
Vronhoil, Kilgerran HO107/2481 folio 294 pg 26
John Morris head mar 42 farm labour b. Pembs, Manordeifi
Ann wife 42 b. Carms, Kenarth
Eleanor dau 11 b.Cards, Llandygwyd
Sarah dau 10 b. Llandygwyd
Hannah dau 7 b. Llandygwyd
Benjamin son 5 b. Pembs, Kilgerran
James son 2 b. Kilgerran
Martha Francis visitor 6 b. Kilgerran
mother's maiden name from birth regs for Sarah, Benjamin & James is Rees

Possible marriage in Manordeifi 3 July 1834 for John Morris & Anne Rees, both otp, both mark, witnesses Thomas Thomas & Thomas Evan.

Hm, I thought I had Eleanor’s birth, Cardigan, q2 1839,  mmn Evans
Title: Re: James Williams 1868
Post by: squirrelinatree on Tuesday 10 April 18 18:12 BST (UK)
Ah, but GRO does have an Ann Morris MMN Rees in 1839.  Perhaps that is her but they actually called her Eleanor because her mother was Ann.  :/
Title: Re: James Williams 1868
Post by: osprey on Saturday 14 April 18 21:21 BST (UK)
Or she wasn't registered in those early days of civil registration. Not unusual. Her age is given as 2 on the 1841 census which was taken early in June, so sept quarter registration might be stretching it a bit.
Title: Re: James Williams 1868
Post by: squirrelinatree on Saturday 14 April 18 23:57 BST (UK)
Or she wasn't registered in those early days of civil registration. Not unusual. Her age is given as 2 on the 1841 census which was taken early in June, so sept quarter registration might be stretching it a bit.

Maybe.

The Ann doesn't seem to appear on the later census' but there is a death in 1840 which could well be her, says 5yrs but could be 5mths.

Thank you for your input.
Title: Re: James Williams 1868
Post by: squirrelinatree on Sunday 20 October 19 22:44 BST (UK)
I have just come back to this thread, in preparation for a visit to the area next week, planning which places to try and find/visit. I have just looked for Gors on Google maps and it appears to be near Aberystwyth. Is there another one, closer to Cardigan?

so the David son of David & Sarah looks more likely as their residence is Gors family still there in 1861 RG9/4175 folio 55 pg 8.

I've got Baptist forebears in this area as well. You should find marriages in the established church, the Baptist churches often had their own burial grounds, but you'll not find infant baptisms, only possibly naming rolls or births to members.
Title: Re: James Williams 1868
Post by: osprey on Monday 21 October 19 21:45 BST (UK)
the Gors of that census entry is within the parish of St Mary, Cardigan. It's the name of the property. Just under the title on this map

https://maps.nls.uk/view/101608630

more modern map, next to the 48 on the left hand side of the map

https://maps.nls.uk/view/189230439
Title: Re: James Williams 1868
Post by: squirrelinatree on Monday 21 October 19 22:25 BST (UK)
Ah, that makes far more sense! Thank you very much.
Title: Re: James Williams 1868
Post by: squirrelinatree on Sunday 27 October 19 21:41 GMT (UK)
Do you know the area well? I have been looking at the maps in posts above and looking for addresses on some census entries.  Some say Tremain, some Llangoedmor. Could they actually be very close together? I am not sure how the registration districts work. If I am deciphering the writing/welsh correctly I am looking for a Penydefaid in Llangoedmor and I can see Pant-y-defaid north of Tanners’ Hall near Gors on the 1906 map. Could that be it? Also looking for Pantllechau in Tremain.
Title: Re: James Williams 1868
Post by: osprey on Monday 28 October 19 20:58 GMT (UK)
not well. Where are the place names from? If they are census entries, could you give the references so we can have a look.

Registration districts are made up of various parishes so for Cardigan registration district see this link

https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/cardigan.html

Map of the parishes
http://web.archive.org/web/20060822031827/http://www.dyfedfhs.org.uk/maps/cgnmap.gif
Title: Re: James Williams 1868
Post by: squirrelinatree on Monday 28 October 19 23:11 GMT (UK)
Thank you.

We were in the area today and with a bit more research I concluded that Pant-y-defaid was the place I was looking for but I never managed to track down Pantllechau!

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/7618/CGNRG10_5541_5543-0304/3473445?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/11677706/person/-420235519/facts/citation/22134851947/edit/record

It will probably be years before we visit again and there is probably nothing specific to see now. I was just curious.

We were also trying to find Vronhoil(?!), Cligerran from this census but had no luck working that one out either.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8861/CGNHO107_2481_2481-0590/15816937?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/11677706/person/-420235335/facts/citation/1140424146203/edit/record

Title: Re: James Williams 1868
Post by: Kay99 on Tuesday 29 October 19 05:39 GMT (UK)
On the 1861 cencus the name looks more like Fronhaul  :-\   https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/8768/CGNRG9_4173_4179-0720?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return#?imageId=CGNRG9_4173_4179-0730
Title: Re: James Williams 1868
Post by: osprey on Tuesday 29 October 19 08:54 GMT (UK)
agree with you on that. Neighbouring Llwyncelyn is on this map, but Haven't spotted Fronhaul as yet...

https://maps.nls.uk/view/101608654