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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: TinaRoyal on Monday 26 March 18 14:29 BST (UK)
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My Great-Grandmother, Elizabeth Bamford, was born in Rochdale on 29th January 1839 and baptised at St. Chad’s Church on 9th June 1839. Neither her Birth Certificate, nor her Baptismal Record, names Elizabeth’s Father. Her Mother was Alice Whitworth, who was married to a Richard Bamford. Richard Bamford died in 1836, three years before Elizabeth was born, so I have a sneaking suspicion that he may not be my Great-Grandfather.
Can anyone suggest how I might find out who my Great-Grandfather was? I have enquired at St. Chad’s, but they don’t have the Parish Chest Records going back to 1839. I have also enquired at Touchstones in Rochdale, but they don’t know the where-abouts of any 1800’s “Bastardy Records”.
Any help or suggestions anyone has, would be most appreciated.
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Well if her husband had died more than 9 months prior then he definitely wasn't the father!
It's rare to find the real father if there is no hint on her birth or baptism :(
Does she put Richard Bamford as her father when she marries? Did Alice marry again? If she did so quickly then her new husband might have been the father but difficult to prove.
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Elizabeth Bamford married John Turner on 28th January 1865. There is a “-“ in the space reserved for her father’s name.
As far as I know, Alice never married again. She is on the 1841 Census living with two of her and Richard Bamford’s children, John and Jane, as well as Elizabeth. And she died in January 1877, under the name of Alice Bamford.
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Autosomal DNA might help. cb
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I like the idea of using DNA to identify my Great-Grandfather, but how would this work ?
I have 16 Great-Grandparents, each of whom have contributed, on average, 6.25% to my DNA. How would I identify which 6.25% has come from the companion of Alice Whitworth ? Furthermore, I may well have inherited more than 6.25% from him, or I may have inherited zero.
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True, it would take a lot of work and you might never solve it. But many people do find an answer that way. cb
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Hi
Just a thought
I have a relative born out of marriage not far from Rochdale about this time
I found a reference on the Lancashire Record Office site to a bastardy record giving the mother, child, date, supposed father and person who paid I don't think it was part of the parish chest. I may be wrong
When I got chance to visit the record office to see the original there was some discussion but they decided it had gone to Central Library in Manchester as part of a Greater Manchester collection. I haven't been yet but I hope to.
I hope you get some progress.
Just another thought, a small chance but has she given another name or a father on a marriage certificate?
Good luck.
Best wishes
Emms :)
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PS Thinking about it another post here jogged my memory.
I think it was a petty or quarter sessions record I'm sure someone who knows more will put me right.
There was an index though Try Central Library site?
Good Luck!
Emms ;)
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It never ceases to amaze me how helpful “RootsChatters” are. Thank you Emms for your suggestions.
I haven’t made enquiries at the Lancashire Record Office or the Central Library in Manchester, but I will do now. The only two places I have contacted so far is “Touchstones” in Rochdale and St. Chad’s Parish Church regarding their Parish Chest, but I have had no joy from either.
Elizabeth Bamford married John Turner on 28th January 1865. But there is no entry for Elizabeth’s father, neither was his occupation given.
Was “Bastardy” a Petty or Quarter Sessions matter in 1839 ? I would appreciate it if someone could enlighten me.
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PS Thinking about it another post here jogged my memory.
I think it was a petty or quarter sessions record I'm sure someone who knows more will put me right.
There was an index though Try Central Library site?
Good Luck!
Emms ;)
Look at Lancashire Archives catalogue LANCAT. Select Advanced Search. Use Bamford as your search term and enter this in 1st box on form. Put a year in if you want or leave it blank. Some petitions were made around time of birth, some when child was older and in need. Choose Quarter Sessions Petitions from drop-down list. Select Lancashire Archives in Repository box. Leave rest of search form empty.
There will only be a petition if mother divulged name of father and if there was need for father to be summonsed to contribute to child's upkeep. Parents may have already come to a private agreement.
Edit. Got into a muddle with quotes.
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Hi
Hope it works out.
Thank you. Yes, I had the catalogue entry when I went and mine gave a lot of information in it. I was wondering if they'd moved the catalogue too but even if they have it's evidently still on the Lancashire catalogue.
It was a couple of years ago or more when I went but although the catalogue was online for Preston and I admit I was adament they must have it, it turned out the records themselves had actually been moved to Manchester.
Thank you for the extra input.
I hope yours is one on there . It may be all you need.
Also, have you tried workhouse baptisms, if she was having a hard time?
Good luck
Emms
PS Yes absolutely true Rootschatters have given me so much help over the years, it;s not true, from records across the globe, though I'm a bit out of touch at the moment so I may owe some people replies. I apologise!
:) :)
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Hi
I just checked and my entry has gone from Lancat now so if you may have to look at Manchester Library too if you're unlucky or contacy them.
Best wishes
Emms
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I found a Removal Order for a pregnant "Singlewoman" of mine from 1833. It was in Quarter Session Petitions in LANCAT. I read it on microfilm at the archives. So look at Removal Orders too in case the authorities tried to off-load her somewhere else, her being a pregnant widow with dependent children. Filiation & maintenance orders are the other relevant documents. Some men were issued with repeat orders if they didn't keep up payments.
Bastardy is also on the drop-down list. It has only 12 entries for Bamford.
You'll also get all petitions which mention the place Bamford.
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The LRO did a wonderful job of indexing the Bastardy Orders and Removal Orders in the court records, to the point that there is little not mentioned in the index entries. Normally omitted are the amounts ordered to be paid and whether the putative father turned up in court or not. Names, abodes and occupations are in the index.
Depressingly, these things were normally on pre-printed forms, so officials just needed to fill in the blanks.
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What is the LRO ? I've got it coming up as the "Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter" !!!
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LRO is Lancashire record office :)
I ordered a bastardy order sometime ago relating to OH's family which was posted to me. I can still see the record on Lancat.
It comes under the headings
Q - Lancashire Courts of Quarter Sessions.
S - Quarter Sessions: The Court in Session
P - Petitions
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My Great-Grandmother, Elizabeth Bamford, was born in Rochdale on 29th January 1839 and baptised at St. Chad’s Church on 9th June 1839. Neither her Birth Certificate, nor her Baptismal Record, names Elizabeth’s Father. Her Mother was Alice Whitworth, who was married to a Richard Bamford. Richard Bamford died in 1836, three years before Elizabeth was born, so I have a sneaking suspicion that he may not be my Great-Grandfather.
Can anyone suggest how I might find out who my Great-Grandfather was? I have enquired at St. Chad’s, but they don’t have the Parish Chest Records going back to 1839. I have also enquired at Touchstones in Rochdale, but they don’t know the where-abouts of any 1800’s “Bastardy Records”.
Any help or suggestions anyone has, would be most appreciated.
Hello
You say Elizabeth Bamford (Mother Alice Bamford) was born Rochdale on the 29th January 1839 and Baptised 9th June 1839.
The Baptisms Solemnized in the Parish of Rochdale, says she was a "Widow".
So after five months, there appears to have been no claim by the Mother against Church Funds / Overseers of the Poor, on the basis of illegitimacy. Of course there can be a later claim, if the Mother's financial circumstances change.
The Parish of Rochdale (Bishops Transcripts) are clearly accepting her status as Widow, at Baptism.
If her husband left Alice money in a Will, there may be no claim for dole or assistance from the Overseers of the Poor, whether the child was illegitimate or not. If the Mother could get by with her own funds / income, or assistance from Family, there might be no Bastardy Case at all?
Did the late husband leave a Will? If so the Will may confirm, if you have the right death and death year.
Did Alice the Mother leave a Will when she died (assuming Daughter Elizabeth outlived her Mother), sometimes Wills explain relationships, sometimes not and can sometimes be 'bolt & braces' to any family tree relationship?
Mark
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What is the LRO ? I've got it coming up as the "Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter" !!!
Lancashire Archives.
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Sorry Mark, I have made a “boo-boo”. You are right, I have the wrong year for the death of Richard Bamford, it was 1835 not 1836. Attached is a copy of the Burial Register for St. Chad’s. The situation is not helped because the Scribe has not filled in the exact year of burial after the “thirty” on the page heading, (but that’s no excuse for my mistake).
Before his death Richard was living at Sheep Holme in Spotland, the same place Alice and Elizabeth were living at the time of the 1841 Census. Richard was a Weaver by trade, so I doubt he had any money to leave Alice. Alice did die before Elizabeth, in 1877, Elizabeth died in 1916. I haven’t explored if Alice left a Will, but that could contain the answer.
Thank you all again for your help. I’m sure I will get there in the end.
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Hello
Although the Baptism Register makes no reference to illegitimacy, it does look like Elizabeth was, or the couple were together, but unmarried?
As others have suggested, if there is a possibility of a Bastardy Case, I don't want to put you off looking.
Some of the Quarter (QS) / Petty Sessions examples seen, indicate there can be quite some detail, even cases when the child was two and four years old. One was even making two men pay half each!
Parish Meeting / Churchwarden / Constables Records / Accounts
Another QS Slip 1780s went to the Parish Constable, as the Mother had moved on and the Parishes were insisting she move back to the Baptism Parish, as those Parishes did not feel responsible to pay her any assistance / dole.
Father May Also Have Died
I wonder if Elizabeth's Father has also died?
Overseers of Poor Records
One QS slip I have seen was addressed to the Overseers of the Poor, so there is another set of records - the Overseers of the Poor to be consulted, especially if Elizabeth's Father has also died. But should be looked at anyway, as she might have applied to them.
Finding the Mother in Land Tax and Manor or Tithe Records
The next is a long shot, but if you have an address, sometimes these can be found or worked out in yearly Land Tax records, or Manor records like Manor Rentals (Tenancy) or Manor Accounts detailing Rents.
Land Tax list the Proprietor and those Occupying, or Manor records the Manor Tenants and by looking at previous years (although in some towns by this period, Land Tax were alphabetical) it may be possible to see her paying, then a male she might be living with paying? One point to bear in mind, by this period is that a few owners of property had paid to make their property exempt of Land Tax, so if the house was previously subject to Land Tax, it might not be now. Also some property was not subject to Land Tax.
Of course her house may be Tithable and appear on the Tithe Map, a Survey conducted in Parishes in the late 1830s / early 1840s of older Tithable property and farms, for the purpose of Commutation of Tithe. If so, the Map is interesting to see anyway and the Accompanying Apportionment Schedule for the Owner and Occupiers name should always be checked, for the address. Although, bear in mind sub-letting of property went on (one address divided into several Tenements) and the Tithe payer, might be the Land Owner or simply the main Occupier. These were not annual, so you cannot compare the address, before or after and only deal with older property subject to Tithe.
Mark