RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Roscommon => Topic started by: Real Lee History on Sunday 01 April 18 23:36 BST (UK)
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I am trying to find out more information to extend my Paternal Fathers line.
My father was youngest of 6 and knows very little about his ancestry line. Whilst I am researching all family ancestry, I am keen to gain information to pass to him while we can.
My great grandfather, John Duffy is the stumbling block.
Background
My Grandfather is Joseph Duffy born 27th Feb 1893 (exact known). He was one of eight children I believe and their father (my great grandfather) is father to all. Records show he had 2 wives. First Mary (probably nee Hawthorn) - marriage citation 1882 Lancashire, England , followed by Elizabeth (born 1872) and USA born - marriage ciatation 1898 Lancashire, England.
Mary from loose family knowledge may have been illiterate and little is known of which wife had which child. My mother recalls that Joseph mentioned both on occasions to the fact he found one more amiable than the other - so I am of the belief both were around or at least met Joseph (born 1893). Neither wife deceased date is known at the moment.
John Duffy on census:
1881 Salford, Manchester, England shows aged 21 Boarder Labourer and born Roscommon Ireland
1891 Manchester, England shows aged 30, Head, Painter and born Yorkshire along with Mary as wife.
1901 Manchester, England shows aged 37, Head, Street Labourer born Ireland - now with Elizabeth as wife aged 29.
1911 Manchester, England aged 52, Head, Groundsman born Loughlynn, Roscommon, Ireland
I am finding it difficult to locate a credible birth certificate to view or take details from. Many John Duffy's born around the time under Roscommon searches state 'Mayo' ?
Can anyone with better skills than mine suggest some logic to the confusing Census data and perhaps knowledge of Birth Certificates showing parents of John Duffy born Loughlynn, Roscommon (from the census' the year is confusing but I am drawn towards 1861 +/- 1yr)
Thanks
PS. Without wishing to influence above findings, I have come across an 1871 Census which has a John Duffy in the household of a Catherine Duffy (Head) aged 32. The John is aged 9, suggests born County Roscommon and at the time of the survey living in Dewsbury, Yorkshire.
RG10/ 4601/ 63 p 11
Clutching at straws I'm wondering if this is the John and hence why some census read Ireland, one Yorkshire for birthplace?
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There are no birth Certs before 1864, so you are looking for a baptism.
John Duffy isn't an uncommon name, but you have Loughglynn as a clue.
If he was RC I would start with the parish records
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0557
Note the parish is on the border of Roscommon and Mayo which may explain why Mayo is coming up in your searches.
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There are no birth Certs before 1864, so you are looking for a baptism.
John Duffy isn't an uncommon name, but you have Loughglynn as a clue.
If he was RC I would start with the parish records
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0557
Note the parish is on the border of Roscommon and Mayo which may explain why Mayo is coming up in your searches.
Thank you Sinann
I have looked at the parish records Microfilm this morning for Baptism 1861 and covered to 1867 (thinking there might also be a brother or sister noted) but sadly nothing.
Certainly Joseph (my grandfather) & family downwards are RC so it was a fair shout he would be in there (if registered at all), however not a certainty I suppose.
Understand why Mayo would be coming up on searches now - thanks - presume I can't discount the Mayo reference as it appears the John Duffy I seek had differing views on his own age and place of birth, so what chance others :)
I will continue to look but really grateful for your input
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Hello,
I think you need better evidence before you can search for John’s birth.
His father’s name should be shown on his marriage certificates. Do you have that information?
You mention the two mothers - you can find mother’s maiden name on the GRO site https://www.gro.gov.uk/ so you could work out which woman had which children.
Having said that, I am having some difficulty trying to do this.
You have mentioned the various censuses.
1901 3752/56/20 shows children born before 1891: James 16yrs; John 14yrs and Charles 12yrs
1891 3243/104 shows just John and Mary Ann Duffy - is that the one you have?
Heywood
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I have found the Duffy/Hawthorn births (or some) now on GRO Salford. :)
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Hello,
I think you need better evidence before you can search for John’s birth.
His father’s name should be shown on his marriage certificates. Do you have that information?
You mention the two mothers - you can find mother’s maiden name on the GRO site https://www.gro.gov.uk/ so you could work out which woman had which children.
Having said that, I am having some difficulty trying to do this.
You have mentioned the various censuses.
1901 3752/56/20 shows children born before 1891: James 16yrs; John 14yrs and Charles 12yrs
1891 3243/104 shows just John and Mary Ann Duffy - is that the one you have?
Heywood
Thanks Heywood
I appreciate any guidance as relatively new to searching ancestry. Wasn't aware of GRO site information searching opportunities so, having opened your link, will register this morning and see if I can work it out to give away its secrets (or at least Johns children's birth mother guidance).
Census - yes 1901 and 1891. I also have 1911 but just shows the family children John (16), Mary (14) and Henry (11) living with John and Elizabeth and the older children in other places having boarded or Head of home.
Thanks for helping :)
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John Duffy is a really common name combination for the era and (Roscommon / Mayo) area, so just to note for now this Loughlynn RC parish baptism possibility, while you track back on the English records.
it's for a John baptised on 11 May 1862 for parents John ?uffy and Catherine Finn, sponsors Patrick Gallagher and Honor Finn (left page, 11th entry down)
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633960#page/55/mode/1up
?uffy is most probably Duffy, a couple with those names had other children baptised in this parish, Patrick 1854, Catherine 1855 and this example - Margaret on 12 February 1860 (left page, 14th entry down):
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633960#page/45/mode/1up
And there was a marriage in same parish for a couple with those names on 12 February 1852 (left page, top entry):
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633960#page/69/mode/1up
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There are some daughters shown on GRO for mmn Hassall so perhaps they died but that seems at odds with 1911.
You will need to list all possibilities :)
I am still puzzled re 1891 census.
The marriage for John Duffy and Mary Hawthorn was 1882 and there are children born shortly and continuing.
1891 shows Mary Ann Duffy b Somerset and John b Yorkshire and no children with them :-\
There is a Mary Ellen Hawthorn b Manchester but I can’t see the family after 1881.
You do need to get those marriage certificates to make sure you are on the right track and then if you have John’s father’s name it may help in your Loughglynn search.
gaffy’s finds are worth noting too - look promising but you need father’s name.
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John Duffy is a really common name combination for the era and (Roscommon / Mayo) area, so just to note for now this Loughlynn RC parish baptism possibility, while you track back on the English records.
it's for a John baptised on 11 May 1862 for parents John ?uffy and Catherine Finn, sponsors Patrick Gallagher and Honor Finn (left page, 11th entry down)
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633960#page/55/mode/1up
?uffy is most probably Duffy, a couple with those names had other children baptised in this parish, Patrick 1854, Catherine 1855 and this example - Margaret on 12 February 1860 (left page, 14th entry down):
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633960#page/45/mode/1up
And there was a marriage in same parish for a couple with those names on 12 February 1852 (left page, top entry):
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633960#page/69/mode/1up
Gaffy - I will take a look at the links and suggestions. Am excited with the Catherine Finn piece as I noted in my original request post, I found an 1871 census (online) with a John Duffy as 9 year old son on a Catherine Duffy (Head) (no father noted) and the John census confusion with Yorkshire could fit in perhaps. But reading that census as I type - its shows a brother William (11yrs) then John (9yrs), James (5yrs) and Patrick (3yrs) but no Margaret.
I will find & print what you have highlighted as is closest to an answer at the moment. I feel I need to find a 'linking' piece of confirmation though before dead cert !?
Thank you for all your work on this so far :)
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There are some daughters shown on GRO for mmn Hassall so perhaps they died but that seems at odds with 1911.
You will need to list all possibilities :)
I am still puzzled re 1891 census.
The marriage for John Duffy and Mary Hawthorn was 1882 and there are children born shortly and continuing.
1891 shows Mary Ann Duffy b Somerset and John b Yorkshire and no children with them :-\
There is a Mary Ellen Hawthorn b Manchester but I can’t see the family after 1881.
You do need to get those marriage certificates to make sure you are on the right track and then if you have John’s father’s name it may help in your Loughglynn search.
gaffy’s finds are worth noting too - look promising but you need father’s name.
Agree re Father's name. I will look at GRO - I presume Order Certificates then Search to locate at this stage. ?
In the 1891 Census Mary does show as Mary Ann but I have no proof so could be Mary Ellen. Again I understand she signed with a cross 'X' as illiterate so perhaps a wedding certificate would confirm the 'right Mary' in this respect?
I didn't and don't understand the dates to the census' or childrens births Nor John's age givens on census' which are never in line? I also wonder about my Grandad (Joseph) having recollection of both mums as that would suggest Mary didn't die before Elizabeth arrived ?
Thank you very much for talking this through with me and helping. Appreciate it :)
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Agree re Father's name. I will look at GRO - I presume Order Certificates then Search to locate at this stage. ?
Yes, you can order from the same site but not a pdf, which is cheaper - only births/deaths. Marriage certs are £9.50, I think.
In the 1891 Census Mary does show as Mary Ann but I have no proof so could be Mary Ellen. Again I understand she signed with a cross 'X' as illiterate so perhaps a wedding certificate would confirm the 'right Mary' in this respect?
Has someone seen the certificate to know this information? What else is shown?
I didn't and don't understand the dates to the census' or childrens births Nor John's age givens on census' which are never in line? I also wonder about my Grandad (Joseph) having recollection of both mums as that would suggest Mary didn't die before Elizabeth arrived ?
There is a possible death in 1894 for Mary Duffy, 38yrs, Manchester
Thank you very much for talking this through with me and helping. Appreciate it :)
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Forgot to post re 1871 4601/63 /11
John Duffy with mother Catherine and siblings in Dewsbury. According to GRO, mother’s maiden name looks to be Hanahin/Henahin
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Agree re Father's name. I will look at GRO - I presume Order Certificates then Search to locate at this stage. ?
Yes, you can order from the same site but not a pdf, which is cheaper - only births/deaths. Marriage certs are £9.50, I think.
Ok, I will look around site as new to me.
In the 1891 Census Mary does show as Mary Ann but I have no proof so could be Mary Ellen. Again I understand she signed with a cross 'X' as illiterate so perhaps a wedding certificate would confirm the 'right Mary' in this respect?
Has someone seen the certificate to know this information? What else is shown?
No just hearsay from my own mother in order to try to help. I will need to see if I can get a marriage certificate and just thought, if it shows an inability to write on Mary's behalf, it fits. it amazes me that my Dad has no recollection or knowledge passed down but he is of a different era.
I didn't and don't understand the dates to the census' or childrens births Nor John's age givens on census' which are never in line? I also wonder about my Grandad (Joseph) having recollection of both mums as that would suggest Mary didn't die before Elizabeth arrived ?
There is a possible death in 1894 for Mary Duffy, 38yrs, Manchester
I would, in a way, prefer this to be the outcome. Again hearsay confuses re my Grandad apparently stating he preferred one to the other, which indicates knowledge of both - even to the youngest age that must be 3 or 4yrs for memories and my granddad was born 1893. However beginning to learn not to trust hearsay :) :)
Thank you very much for talking this through with me and helping. Appreciate it :)
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Good luck and just ask for any help.
As has been said, Duffy is common around those parts -my grandmother was a Duffy but remained in Mayo so easier to follow.
It is frustrating re those boys in 1891. They are well hidden. :-\
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For information
Lancashire opc http://www.lan-opc.org.uk doesn’t have many Catholic records but is adding to them.
There are two records - In Latin
Randolphus Duffy baptised 10th July 1898 parents John and Alice :-\ formerly Hassal
Godparents John Edward Hassal and Sabina Monaghan
39th July 1899 same church
Gertrude Duffy - mother now Elizabeth
Godparent John Edward Hassall and Mary Ann Cunnliffe
I have anglicised the names.
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John Duffy is a really common name combination for the era and (Roscommon / Mayo) area, so just to note for now this Loughlynn RC parish baptism possibility, while you track back on the English records.
it's for a John baptised on 11 May 1862 for parents John ?uffy and Catherine Finn, sponsors Patrick Gallagher and Honor Finn (left page, 11th entry down)
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633960#page/55/mode/1up
?uffy is most probably Duffy, a couple with those names had other children baptised in this parish, Patrick 1854, Catherine 1855 and this example - Margaret on 12 February 1860 (left page, 14th entry down):
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633960#page/45/mode/1up
And there was a marriage in same parish for a couple with those names on 12 February 1852 (left page, top entry):
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633960#page/69/mode/1up
Gaffy
I searched the Baptism on this register this morning and didn't see these.
I remember thinking to myself - I can't see many children baptised 'John' yet my searches shows many many John Duffy's around the area at the time.
The name of child in the register doesn't read 'John' - seems to dtart with a 'J' but these eyes would never have linked the note to the name !! Is it in Latin or a form Irish ? & what does the register call the child if you know?
I take my hat off to you, whether this information proves right or wrong and i'm beginning to realise that asking on here is one of the best recent decisions I've made regarding my searches as a few kind souls have really helped.
:)
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In Latin
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It is Latin. The names have different endings according to the position in the sentence - forgotten most from school but the register shows Joannem because he is the one to whom baptism is given. Dad’s name ends in ‘is’ because it is ‘of John’.
This might help
https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/latin-irish-parish-registers.html
Going back to the baptisms I posted, I think ‘ Randolphus’ is Harold who was born September quarter 1898 with mmn Hassall.
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In Latin
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Thank you. Explains my missing it whilst looking for John :)
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For information
Lancashire opc http://www.lan-opc.org.uk doesn’t have many Catholic records but is adding to them.
There are two records - In Latin
Randolphus Duffy baptised 10th July 1898 parents John and Alice :-\ formerly Hassal
Godparents John Edward Hassal and Sabina Monaghan
39th July 1899 same church
Gertrude Duffy - mother now Elizabeth
Godparent John Edward Hassall and Mary Ann Cunnliffe
I have anglicised the names.
It is Latin. The names have different endings according to the position in the sentence - forgotten most from school but the register shows Joannem because he is the one to whom baptism is given. Dad’s name ends in ‘is’ because it is ‘of John’.
This might help
https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/latin-irish-parish-registers.html
Going back to the baptisms I posted, I think ‘ Randolphus’ is Harold who was born September quarter 1898 with mmn Hassall.
Thanks. Aware of Latin ie early speak in records, but it just didn't dawn on me that I was hitting the era of Latin as other lines of the same era are still in English. Certainly don't understand 'to whom' and 'is of' lol - more reading up to do - but thank you.
With the baptisms posted - I currently know John & Mary &/or Elizabeths children to be:
James 1885
John 1887
Charles 1889
William 1891
Joseph 1893
John Edward 1894
Mary Francis 1897
Henry 1900
:)
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Gro shows other Duffy/Hassall - I wonder are they the same family?
Harold 1898
Gertrude 1899
Lucy 1902
Alice 1904
Elizabeth 1906
John 1908
Frederick 1910
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Possible Deaths on Free BMD
Harold 1898 0yrs
Gertrude 1901 2yrs
Alice 1905 1yr
Can’t see the others ???
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Gro shows other Duffy/Hassall - I wonder are they the same family?
Harold 1898
Gertrude 1899
Lucy 1902
Alice 1904
Elizabeth 1906
John 1908
Frederick 1910
I am not aware but Hassal was the maiden name of Elizabeth so ....?? My parents must have known !! - I know they recall Henry (1900) as having met when my parents were courting in the 1950's but I have not had mentioned any of the 'fresh' names above. I will try to investigate.
I have searched GRO for the John (1861) children I do know and have found it responds from James (1885) through to my granddad (1893) - all as Hawthorn (Mothers maiden). When I have searched John Edward / Mary Francis & Henry - at the moment - no records .......I will try Manchester Records rather than Salford for them...
What a great tool though for finding maiden names :)
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Possible Deaths on Free BMD
Harold 1898 0yrs
Gertrude 1901 2yrs
Alice 1905 1yr
Can’t see the others ???
This crossed my last reply -
Perhaps they were all John and Elizabeth's and all died leaving Henry the 'youngest' known to my parents in the 50's ? That would be sad.
You are really helping, thank you :)
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No I can’t see Mary Frances and Henry ???
Now this is a puzzle
Birth
Henry Duffy 1900 Manchester mmn Holyoak
Mary Frances Holyoake Manchester 1897 no maiden name
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Mary Frances would be born before the second marriage.
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No I can’t see Mary Frances and Henry ???
Now this is a puzzle
Birth
Henry Duffy 1900 Manchester mmn Holyoak
Mary Frances Holyoake Manchester 1897 no maiden name
I have in my records :
Henry Duffy
Born: 1900
Manchester
Died 1966 Manchester
1911 census shows all three of them with John & Elizabeth
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW1Z-8KG
Not aware of another wife !! - 'holyoak' ??
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Mary Frances would be born before the second marriage.
Looks like John Edward 1893 and Mary Francis 1897 were before marriage of John/Elizabeth 1898 ??
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I thought John Edward might have been born to Mary Hawthorn but now I can’t see a birth anyway ::)
Have you found his birth?
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I thought John Edward might have been born to Mary Hawthorn but now I can’t see a birth anyway ::)
Have you found his birth?
Potentially he may be a rouge ?
I have not found him through GRO at all and nor Mary Francis. I have located Henry (as you say - showing HOLYOAK as mmn)
Citation for Edward Birth: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW1Z-8KG
and whilst I don't have birth details for Mary (known as Fanny) I do have Census 1911 citation with both (all three) showing in above link ^
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Another oddity with this baptism
https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NNTG-JMR
John Edward baptised 9th August 1893 but your Joseph was born February 1893 ???
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Another oddity with this baptism
https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NNTG-JMR
John Edward baptised 9th August 1893 but your Joseph was born February 1893 ???
Perhaps he should be un-linked. I know one thing for sure in the facts its my granddads birthday as we have his birth certificate and my Dad's/Mums existing knowledge..
However, my Grandad was born to Mary Hawthorn (mmn) and if John Edward born to Hassal (mmn) then could be same year. I have John Edward DOB 24 Jan 1893 and christening 9th Aug same year. ??
I realise this isn't your challenge but am certainly grateful for your time spent today :)
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Oh we enjoy it and I am very much aware that I have concentrated on Manchester and not Roscommon.
I think to progress, you need to get the marriage certificates initially.
To some extent the other children are not as important at the moment.
With John’s father’s name you might be able to prove or find the Loughglynn records.
The original parish records for the marriages may have a note - sometimes the priest would annotate the record showing baptism details - I have seen it the other way where the baptism record shows the later marriage details.
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Oh we enjoy it and I am very much aware that I have concentrated on Manchester and not Roscommon.
I think to progress, you need to get the marriage certificates initially.
To some extent the other children are not as important at the moment.
With John’s father’s name you might be able to prove or find the Loughglynn records.
The original parish records for the marriages may have a note - sometimes the priest would annotate the record showing baptism details - I have seen it the other way where the baptism record shows the later marriage details.
:) Well I have had ' the bug' for a while and only now - with more time - am I pulling it together. I find days fly by and I haven't moved from searching and I get excited over the smallest of 'moves' forward with the tree. I can see the addiction :)
I will do as you say and work out how to order, through GRO, the Marriage Certificate of John and Mary initially as the first one and see what we get.
I will update as I gain further, until I nail this part of my tree :)
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Yes thanks. I look forward to seeing what you find.
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Ancestrys Free w/end is still available!
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Ancestrys Free w/end is still available!
:) Yep - on to it this weekend :)
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Here are the other missing children for you to look at with a different John and Elizabeth Alice
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWB2-F11
So you may have to reconsider the second marriage if there is one to Elizabeth Holyoake
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::) ::) ::)
Prestwich June 1899 vol 8d pg 694
John Duffy and Elizabeth Holyoak
I can’t believe it! I just couldn't understand re Elizabeth Hassall when she seems to be in earlier censuses born Manchester.
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1891 3244/75
Elizabeth Holyoake 22 yrs born America is with her mother living in Manchester.
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Here are the other missing children for you to look at with a different John and Elizabeth Alice
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWB2-F11
So you may have to reconsider the second marriage if there is one to Elizabeth Holyoake
So this one ^^ with Elizabeth Alice isn't in my tree ......
::) ::) ::)
Prestwich June 1899 vol 8d pg 694
John Duffy and Elizabeth Holyoak
I can’t believe it! I just couldn't understand re Elizabeth Hassall when she seems to be in earlier censuses born Manchester.
But this one ^^^ IS the second marriage of John Duffy to an American Elizabeth :) (Which makes John / Mary & Henry 's mum Holyoak make sense AND also makes the other group of 6 or so later children not in our tree as Elizabeth Hassal is not connected as first thought.
Henry being the last child of John Duffy.
;D ;D Well done - A Master stroke and the family pieces - second wife / American and henry youngest now fit to this new Elizabeth.
Not sure how you dug that out or from where !! *claps* - I'm still struggling getting the GRO to locate John/Mary wedding cert even though i'm quoting the volume number and page. Only wants birth or death and I have neither for either lol.
Perhaps the certificate of John/ Elizabeth will /can be viewed rather than ordered. I'll have a look.
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1891 3244/75
Elizabeth Holyoake 22 yrs born America is with her mother living in Manchester.
Very very well done :) Thank you :)
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Have you gone to this page - place an order for marriage - event then further down GRO index and year
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/app_select.asp
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Have you gone to this page - place an order for marriage - event then further down GRO index and year
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/app_select.asp
:)
Yes. I was getting to that page - but then trying to locate it through GRO records by saying no to known and searching. That wasn't good enough :)
I have now located the reference through citation on Family Search and said 'yes' to GRO known & just keyed it in. :)
Thanks.
Changing Elizabeth's details now and feel a marathon has been run today to get here - how did you pull the connection out of the bag ? Just hopeful search of Elizabeth + Holyoak or a logical progression I could learn from with ancestry hunting ? :)
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Let’s just hope it is ok. It seems it though with the children’s names, although not sure we have John Edward in all this. He is on the census though so presumably they didn’t just find him in the doorstep.
I also think that there is a question mark re Mary. If she died 1894, was it, there would be no reason for John to wait for marriage.
However, it may be that Henry is the first child to John and Elizabeth :-\ and he was a widower for a few years.
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Sorry it’s me again.
This is another site which can be a help.
http://www.mlfhs.org.uk/data/catholic_search.php
It is a pay site for records but you can deduce certain things and it can be interesting :) (if you like that sort of thing)
For example - more Latin
1897
Elisabethae Holyoak Mother of Maria Francisca HOLYOAK at Corpus Christi, Miles Platting.
1900
Elisabethae Holyoak Mother of Henricus DUFFY at Manchester, St. Edmund, Miles Platting
Unfortunately, I can’t see any of your Hawthorn Duffys.
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Sorry it’s me again.
This is another site which can be a help.
http://www.mlfhs.org.uk/data/catholic_search.php
It is a pay site for records but you can deduce certain things and it can be interesting :) (if you like that sort of thing)
For example - more Latin
1897
Elisabethae Holyoak Mother of Maria Francisca HOLYOAK at Corpus Christi, Miles Platting.
1900
Elisabethae Holyoak Mother of Henricus DUFFY at Manchester, St. Edmund, Miles Platting
Unfortunately, I can’t see any of your Hawthorn Duffys.
No need to apologise. I value what we have found and progressed today. Thank you - any useful sites I'd like to learn :)
I'd like to have more snippets available to make deductions and develop the tree - I image I will need a wider range of viewing options, the further back I progress, so will happily take a look.
Thanks for covering the Hawthorn/Duffy angle on the site already. Last hour spent updating Elizabeth and 'duffy family' with a bit more 'meat' on the bones.
May have located an Army Service record for John Edward and also potentially a death record.