RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: Hukanui76 on Friday 06 April 18 05:34 BST (UK)
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My cousin is hoping to do research in archives in July, looking for details of family who lived in and around Dunkerque, Renescure in 1700 to 1800s approx. He has been told no use looking in archives in Lille as all documents etc transferred to Paris. Any tips on helping please?
Heather Hayes, Hamilton, New Zealand
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The French archives are organized per department. Dunkerque and Renescure are in the Département du Nord, and the actual archive is in the city of Lille. You can find out everything you need to know on their website http://archivesdepartementales.lenord.fr (http://archivesdepartementales.lenord.fr) although a basic knowledge of the French language is needed.
Good luck!
belgianancestry . weebly . com
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http://archivesdepartementales.lenord.fr/?go_thesaurus=&thesaurus_opened=&node_start=&start=&open_thes=&close_thes=&select_thes=&unselect_thes=&label_geogname=Commune&form_search_town=RENESCURE&form_search_geogname=RENESCURE&label_unitdate=P%C3%A9riode&label_unitdate_pref=entre&label_unitdate2=et&form_search_unitdate=&form_search_unitdate2=&label_typeacte=Type+d%27acte&form_search_typeacte=&label_unittitle=Cote+microfilm&form_search_unititle=&form_search_unittitle=&tri=0&btn_valid=Rechercher&action=search&id=recherche_etat_civil
If your cousin is searching dob, dom, dod them he (she)must look in the Etat Civil of Renescure.
Should search for everything he can get online and if he wants what's not on line , can try to go and see documents an The Archives Déprtementales in Lille (département du Nord) .
What are you searching precisely (last date you have in Renescure)?
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Jean Bartholomeu de Ridder born in Dunkirk 1742 became Bailly of Renescure, ?died helping defend members of the Royal family about 1791. Records show that he was "puis chirurgien major attache a l'ambulance du Prince d'Orange"? My cousin is trying to find record confirming the latter post and also if possible details of his death. One of his sons joined the Napoleonic Navy, and was captured by the British in 1805. He lived out his life in Bristol, England and in turn one of his grandsons emigrated to New Zealand.
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https://www.geneanet.org/archives/releves/view/publi/428#DERI
but I cannot find the birth in 1742
AND
Jean Bartholomé De Ridder , 27 on the 5th of april 1769 in Noordpeene (département du nord) , 1rst marriage ,surgeon.
He is said born in the parish of Notre Dame de Cassel. Not in Dunkirk.
But the registers of this period are missing for this parish .
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https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.genealogy.medieval/fUptUNYMQ9Y
I presume you already know this.
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https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bailli
In french. What is a Bailly? Before the revolution (no bailly after the revolution) he represented the authority of the king or prince , had in charge justice and administration.
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http://ghdk-flandre.fr/photos_cahiers/Renescure_Cahiers-de-dol%C3%A9ances-de-Renescure-chatellenie-de-Cassel_Jean-Marie-Muyls_.pdf
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https://www.museeprotestant.org/en/notice/the-french-concordat/
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What 's certain is that Jean Bartélémy De Ridder was 27 in 1769 , was a surgeon , married Catherine Heems 5 april 1769 in Noordpeene, nowadays in the département du Nord, France. The only members of his family attending the wedding are : Jean Marie Roelo ?(not certain ), brother par alliance = half brother and a Vice curate who signs De Ridder , at the end of the marriage act.
It means that his mother married at least twice.
What is also certain is that no sign of nobility appears in the act, and no sign of not being a catholic.
He signs De Ridder Chirurgien on the act.
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Records show that he was "puis chirurgien major attache a l'ambulance du Prince d'Orange"? My cousin is trying to find record confirming the latter post and also if possible details of his death.
May I ask what kind of records? Official records , historical sources ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_of_Orange
The prince of Orange was a prince of the netherlands.
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http://archivesenligne.pasdecalais.fr/console/ir_seriel_visu.php?SID=fbmgigce26brp0lrfp1eufg4u6&id=193620226&l=2544&h=1317&titre=19362022
In Hallines, nowadays département du Pas de Calais.
page 519/1694
2d marriage of JB DE RIDDER . His occupation is said bailly de Renescure.
He signs B De Ridder ,Bailly
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De Ridder and De Groote wrote a wedding contract in 1778 in Saint-Omer but I don't find it online.
I'll try to know more in order to be able to read it . I'll tell you what I 'll find.
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Thank you very much for all your help. If he was a surgeon would he have had to go to a college? and not sure how the Prince of Orange is mentioned?
By the by, my husband and I are great cycling fans and you can imagine the delight when a few years back they actually went through Renescure. Managed to freeze the tv picture and get a photo !
Regards
Heather
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http://archivesdepartementales.lenord.fr/?id=viewer&doc=accounts%2Fmnesys_ad59%2Fdatas%2Fir%2FEtat%20civil%2FFRAD059_MI_A_Z_2011_07_01%2Exml&page_ref=245560&lot_num=1&img_num=1
page 493/1240
Birth of Louis Edouard 17 august 1781 Renescure , baptized 19 august.
father JB bailli de Renescure ,born in Cassel, mother Marie Joseph Pétronille Degroote also born in Cassel. Godfather Jean Philippe George Munster, godmother Jeanne Thérèse Degroote, aunt.
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You can have lots of pictures of Renescure , Cassel etc.. on the web , or Google earth.
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Desire Adrien Barthelemy DERIDDER
Baptism record on November 20th 1787 in Renescure
http://archivesdepartementales.lenord.fr/?id=viewer&doc=accounts%2Fmnesys_ad59%2Fdatas%2Fir%2FEtat%20civil%2FFRAD059_MI_A_Z_2011_07_01%2Exml&page_ref=245560&lot_num=1&img_num=1&index_in_visu=
View 633
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Désiré Adrien Barthelemi DERIDDER died in 1859 in Monnaie
"ancien capitaine au long cours"
http://archives.touraine.fr/?id=viewer&doc=accounts%2Fmnesys_cd37%2Fdatas%2Fir%2F12_Cotes%20de%20substitution%2FREPRODUCTIONS%20DE%20DOCUMENTS%20D%27ARCHIVES%20SUR%20SUPPORT%20INFORMATIQUE%2FEtat-Civil%2FFRAD037_359134_Mariages1942%2Exml&page_ref=2821905&lot_num=1&img_num=1&index_in_visu=
Frame 225 - number 2
Son of Jean Barthelemy DERIDDER and Joséphine Pétronille DEGROOTE, widower of Apauline Thérèze Françoise DUMEY
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Another son in 1770 (first marriage)
http://archivesdepartementales.lenord.fr/?id=viewer&doc=accounts%2Fmnesys_ad59%2Fdatas%2Fir%2FEtat%20civil%2FFRAD059_MI_A_Z_2011_07_01%2Exml&page_ref=245560&lot_num=1&img_num=1&index_in_visu=
Frame 261
dead the same year
Frame 263
https://gw.geneanet.org/mussyl?lang=en&pz=b+madeleine+b+cornelie&nz=bortier&ocz=0&p=jacques+anne+apollinaire+barthelemy&n=de+ridder
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Very interesting : the godfather was Jacques Joseph Nicolas Taverne de Montdhiver, écuyer seigneur de cette paroisse , he signs Taverne de Montdhiver.
See my preceding post "I presume you already know this"
"The Bristol Mercury and Daily Post, Thursday, 10 May 1894, issue 14351
"MARRIAGES"
"DE RIDDER - COLMAN -- On May 9th at the Abbey Church, Bath, by the
Rev. Thomas K. Allen, of Clifton, Louis Edward de Ridder, of Newbury
house, Clifton, member of the ancient Marquisate family de Renesquieu
de Bourbourg et de Monthiver to Stephana Augusta Colman, of Erlestoke,
Clifton, widow of the late E. S. [Edward Stone] Colman, and second
daughter of the late Thomas Plummer, of North Wilts. No cards."
This set me looking for the roots of this claim. I have dredged up a
fair amount in English publications, but have found little
corroboration in French ones. Is this a case of La Fausse Noblesse or
La Noblesse d'Apparence?
There is a passing reference to Louis Edouard de Ridder de Mont Hiver,
Marquis de Renezcure and Baron de Bourbourg et Mont Hiver in Crisp's
"Visitation of England and Wales", vol. 6, p. 83, under Smith,
formerly of Sidbury Hall, Salop. "
and more to read.
It seems that Louis Edward "borrowed" the title of the Lord "seigneur" of his half brother's godfather.
The presse articles quoted in the discussion show that Louis was said "a member of the marquisate "family", later marquis of Renescure ,and baron of Montdhiver , later Count of Montdhiver. But it was a fake nobility.
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I asked on a french forum if someone can go and read the wedding contract De Ridder/De Groote in Saint-Omer Library.
We'll see.
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Désiré Adrien Barthelemi DERIDDER got married in Dunkerque in 1817
http://archivesdepartementales.lenord.fr/?id=viewer&doc=accounts%2Fmnesys_ad59%2Fdatas%2Fir%2FEtat%20civil%2FFRAD059_MI_A_Z_2011_07_01%2Exml&page_ref=102777&lot_num=1&img_num=1&index_in_visu=
view 494
His father is deceased and was a "chirurgien major, attaché à l'ambulance du Prince d'Orange" "mort à l'armée".
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Marie Catherine Claire HEEMS died in 1775 in Renescure
http://archivesdepartementales.lenord.fr/?id=viewer&doc=accounts%2Fmnesys_ad59%2Fdatas%2Fir%2FEtat%20civil%2FFRAD059_MI_A_Z_2011_07_01%2Exml&page_ref=245560&lot_num=1&img_num=1&index_in_visu=
View 410
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http://archivesdepartementales.lenord.fr/?id=viewer&doc=accounts%2Fmnesys_ad59%2Fdatas%2Fir%2FEtat%20civil%2FFRAD059_MI_A_Z_2011_07_01%2Exml&page_ref=245560&lot_num=1&img_num=1
page 633/1240
birth of Désiré Adrien Barthélémy 17 november 1787 Renescure son of JB De Ridder bailli. Godfather , guess who? ...messire Le Febure , seigneur de Renescure.
So, between 1787 and 1817, Jean Barthélémy died, having changed his occupation , becoming a surgeon (his former occupation) (chirurgien major= army surgeon) in the army of the prince of Orange. Right after 1787 the french Revolution took place, the princes of Orange between 1787 and 1817 were Guillaume V and Guillaume VI (depends on when Jean Barthélémy died, but I 'd rather say Guillaume V was the prince he served), they were not in favor of the Revolution ,as you can guess. In 1793 France declared war to the Netherlands . Jean died in the army ( so probably not in 1791 but later).
Where could we get a list of the dead in the army of the prince of Orange during the wars of these times?
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Annales ..., Volumes 6-7 1862
Comité flamand de France
p. 275
"LISTE DES DELEGUES
Choisis par les Villes, Bourgs, Paroisses et Communautés de campagne
ayant un rôle séparé de contribution, pour représenter l'Ordre du
Tiers État de la Flandre Maritime à l'Assemblée Bailliagère, du 30
mars 1789, à Bailleul.
Page 282
[330 feus] Renescure (Paroisse et Seigneurie). [4 deputes] NOM,
PRÉNOMS, Etc. des Députés.... Jean-Barthelemi De Ridder, Bailli.
[followed by 3 more names]"
from the link I gave upwards concerning the discussion of nobility.
A proof that Jean Barthélémy was'nt a noble : he was a deputy of the Tiers Etat (not clergy, not noble).
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https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/MS19140523.2.15
killed at the retreat of Neville, while defending the Dauphin of France
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Second marriage in 1778 in Hallines
http://archivesenligne.pasdecalais.fr/console/ir_seriel_visu.php?SID=pka6m5g6ce6r3vio7pai3j62e0&id=193620226&l=1904&h=944&titre=193620226#
View 513
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https://en.geneanet.org/archives/releves/view/publi/428#DERI
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https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/MS19140523.2.15
killed at the retreat of Neville, while defending the Dauphin of France
Yes I read that , but I can't find a proof of the retreat of Neville if you can that will give us the date of Jean Barthélémy's death.
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Neville could be a person rather than a place.
Madame de Neuville was a maid of Marie Antoinette and she followed the royal family during the flight to Varennes in another stagecoach
Pictorial History of England: Being a History of the People, as Well ...
https://books.google.fr/books?id=uMhLAAAAYAAJ - Traduire cette page
George Lillie Craik, Charles MacFarlane - 1847 - Great Britain
The poor little dauphin and his sister, who had been snatched from their beds in the Tuileries when the fatal flight began, and who had been shaken over rough ... with her head leaning on her hands, and having near her Mesdames Brunier and Neuville, the two waitingwomen who had followed the berline in the chaise.
But as you say, it's more likely a place
Full text of "The flight to Varennes, and other historical essays"
https://archive.org/stream/.../cu31924027987985_djvu.txt
Traduire cette page
At five in the afternoon D'Andoins walked out on the road to Pont-Sommevesle, but saw no- ' We know that he was at Neuville-au-Pont at a little be- fore eight. 26 THE FLIGHT TO VARENNES. thing. SHortly afterwards Leonard, the hairdresser, arrived with ChoiseaPs message, that the treasure would probably not pass that ...
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I don't think so , I think it is a place, but it may be Neville or Neuville or Nevele or Nivelle .
Pas de Calais : Neuville-au-Cornet
Neuville-Bourjonval
Neuville-Saint-Vaast
Neuville-sous-Montreuil
Neuville-Vitasse
Nord : La Neuville
Neuville-en-Avesnois
Neuville-en-Ferrain
Neuville-Saint-Rémy
Neuville-sur-Escaut
Neuvilly
Picardie -Somme :
Neuville-au-Bois
Neuville-Coppegueule
La Neuville-lès-Bray
Neuville-lès-Loeuilly
La Neuville-Sire-Bernard
Picardie -Aisne :
La Neuville-Bosmont
La Neuville-en-Beine
La Neuville-Housset
La Neuville-lès-Dorengt
Neuville-Saint-Amand
Neuville-sur-Ailette
Neuville-sur-Margival
Nivelle
Ardennes :
La Neuville-à-Maire
La Neuville-aux-Joûtes
Neuville-Day
La Neuville-en-Tourne-à-Fuy
Neuville-lès-This
La Neuville-lès-Wasigny
Neuville-lez-Beaulieu
Meuse:
Neuville-en-Verdunois
Neuville-lès-Vaucouleurs
Neuville-sur-Ornain
Belgium:
Nevele
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The "Dauphin de France" was the heir of the throne, a child , not supposed to be at war .
A surgeon is not supposed to fight in the army.
The only circumstance that could have led someone to defend the Dauphin de france was the "fuite de Varennes" in 1791 when the royal family tried to leave France , but nobody was killed (I think).
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Thank you both very much for your replies. I think the newspaper reports in England and New Zealand were some truth but mostly embellished. Jean B's son Louis who was born in 1781 joined the Napoleonic navy at some stage possibly as a young boy, captured by the British in 1805 and then lived the rest of his life as a teacher of French in Bristol. At his death no mention made of any nobility and then all of a sudden one of the sons discovers papers that claim the story of nobility etc. Obviously the story grew with time. My cousin and I are trying to make sense of it all. Obviously De Ridder family were of upper class probably because of who godparents etc were?? Still an interesting story and thanks for filling in some of the holes so to speak.
Jean B's father Louis Nicolas de Ridder was a boulanger in Dunkerque I think and another generation or two back there was a Cornil de Ridder who was meant to have property. Plenty to work on for me.
Recorded Paris Roubaix cycle race and have just witnessed them entering Dept Nord!
Thank you so much for your help
Heather
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On findmypast
Deridder L E — — 1805 Prisoners Of War 1715-1945 —
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Thank you both very much for your replies. I think the newspaper reports in England and New Zealand were some truth but mostly embellished. Jean B's son Louis who was born in 1781 joined the Napoleonic navy at some stage possibly as a young boy, captured by the British in 1805 and then lived the rest of his life as a teacher of French in Bristol. At his death no mention made of any nobility and then all of a sudden one of the sons discovers papers that claim the story of nobility etc. Obviously the story grew with time. My cousin and I are trying to make sense of it all. Obviously De Ridder family were of upper class probably because of who godparents etc were?? Still an interesting story and thanks for filling in some of the holes so to speak.
Jean B's father Louis Nicolas de Ridder was a boulanger in Dunkerque I think and another generation or two back there was a Cornil de Ridder who was meant to have property. Plenty to work on for me.
Recorded Paris Roubaix cycle race and have just witnessed them entering Dept Nord!
Thank you so much for your help
Heather
Someone might have misread those old papers in French and was pleased with what he thought he has discovered.
The "de" in the family name is not French.
It's "the" in Flemish. The name means the rider.
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Hello Heather,
yes it is a lovely fantasy but ancestors don't have to be noble to be of interest. Jean Barthélémy was wealthy, educated , his friends and allies were bourgeois too and the seigneurs and nobles of that time accepted to be godfathers and mothers in two cases : the parents were friends or they all were protestants ( protestants nobles were godfathers and godmothers of multiple children in troubled times , without being close friends of the parents, it gave more protection to the children). I don't see evidence of protestantism in the De Ridder records.
How do you know the name of JB 's father (the records of Cassel are missing for the years concerned (around 1742 for his birth) ?
Indeed the name De Ridder should have Dutch or flemish origins, so does De Groote, Heems and many names of this area .
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(La) Neuville-au-Pont , département de la Marne, no death of any De Ridder in 1791 or 1792, no death of any stranger.
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Varennes : no death of any De Ridder 1791 and 1792
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According to the marriage record of Désiré , son of Jean Barthélémy, 17 feb 1817, Dunkerque, he was "when living " "chirurgien major attaché à l'ambulance du Prince d'Orange, mort à l'armée ,place of death unknown".
It will be very difficult to find his death record, even his descendants did not know where he died, nor when probably.
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Does anyone know if the Paris Archives have a list of interpreters for someone who does not speak French.
Heather
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Hello, well I just phoned the Archives of Paris to be sure : the answer is no interpreter.
may I ask why you mention Paris ?
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My cousin who is to do research felt he may obtain records of Jean Bartholomeu's army and medical records in Archives in Paris. He is also going to attempt the archives in Lille.
More thanks for all you are doing, very much appreciated.
Heather
Hamilton, New Zealand
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A good and a bad idea because if Jean Barthélémy De Ridder was an army surgeon in the army of the prince of Orange , let's say between 1790 and 1817 (this span is complex because from 1790 till 1800 records can be found in the revolutionary archives , after in the napoleonican archives), he was in a foreign army (foreign = not french). There won't be any army record in the french archives.
Read this :
http://www.waterloocommittee.be/battle.php?view=protagonist&pid=9
More, being a surgeon , was he considered as a soldier?
LOUIS EDOUARD DE RIDDER, supposed to have joined napoleon's army and made prisonner in 1805 could be found in some archives in France.
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When did Jean Barthélémy do his studies ? = before 1769 (he is said to be a surgeon at his 1srrt marriage in 1769.
https://aos.edp-dentaire.fr/articles/aos/pdf/2016/01/aos2016274article2.pdf
À compter de 1743, le titre de maître-ès-arts est nécessaire pour commencer des études de chirurgie. Celui-ci nécessitant de faire partie de l’Université, les chirurgiens sont à présent considérés comme y appartenant et en bénéficient de tous les privilèges. En outre, cette déclaration confirme la chirurgie comme art libéral: les maîtres reçus à Paris sont tenus de n’exercer aucune
autre profession que le métier de chirurgien. Par cette déclaration, Louis XV élève les chirurgiens en égaux des médecins.
"En 1772, la formation devient universitaire: les chirurgiens doivent obligatoirement étudier trois ans au Collège de chirurgie pour Paris, et un an pour les praticiens de province [13, 14]. "
Where did he do his studies? we'll have to find that.
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Not sure what Jean B did before he was a surgeon. I do not understand French unfortunately was wondering if you could tell me
"Cornil de ridder maitre 1664 etat de biens ff 1116 de Coudekerque folios 254 et 272 archives de Bergues
etat biens ff 1623 23 april 1717 louis deridder 21.2.1690"
My cousin wonders if maitre could mean Lord?!
Heather
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Here is the summary of the wedding contract between JB De Ridder et De Groote
I had to register in a forum specialized in the Nord Pas de Calais because the first forum I tried did not bring any help
"Gros de St Omer, contrat de mariage 175 du 03/01/1778 (4E5/1445)
Le Sr Jean Barthelemie DERIDDER bailly du village de Renescure y demeurant, veuf de Marie Catherine Thérèse HEEMS d’une part.
Damoiselle Marie Anne DEGROOTE fille majeure coutumière demeurant présentement au château d’Halines, native de Cassel, de feu François et d’encore vivante Catherine ALEXANDRE, assistée de damoiselle Marie Thérèse DEGROOTE sa sœur germaine, de Pierre Joseph QUIQUE laboureur demeurant au fort rouge, paroisse d’Arques et de Marie Angélique TOULOTTE sa femme comme parent par alliance d’autre part.
Les futurs mariants ont déclaré ne faire aucun apport de mariage, se tenant réciproquement contents de chacun leurs droit et action"
Separation as to property in fact.
Translation:
Mister (le sr= le sieur= mister)JB widower of MCT Heems , living in Renescure , bailli de Renescure and MA Degroote over the age of majority (coutumière ? I don't know what that meant IN THOSE DAYS, I have asked , I'll let you know, I think it might mean that she was adopted), born in Cassel,for the moment living in the castle of Halines, daughter of the late François and of still living Catherine ALEXANDRE, advised and assisted by her sister MT Degroote, Pierre Quique, farmer living at fort rouge , parish of Arques and MA Toulotte his wife, as family in law.
The future grom and bride declared to make no contribution to the marriage, being satisfied with their rights and actions.
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Not sure what Jean B did before he was a surgeon. I do not understand French unfortunately was wondering if you could tell me
"Cornil de ridder maitre 1664 etat de biens ff 1116 de Coudekerque folios 254 et 272 archives de Bergues
etat biens ff 1623 23 april 1717 louis deridder 21.2.1690"
My cousin wonders if maitre could mean Lord?!
Heather
He must have been a student , studying surgery ( he was 27 in 1769).
Maître means:
Maître ou Maîstre :
Qui détient la maîtrise d’un art, ce terme signifiait que l'homme était notaire, avocat, ou artisan, etc..., ceux qui pouvaient utiliser ce titre étaient ceux qui avait reçu une reconnaissance de leur corporation à laquelle ils appartenaient. On pouvait être ainsi: maître chirurgien, maître charpentier, maître cordonnier, maître maçon, maître meunier, etc.. Mais en général, le métier exercé était précisé dans le titre.
http://www.geneafrance.org/rubrique.php?page=denomin
Maître does not mean at all that he was a noble or a lord but that he was a master in his profession (could be a miller , a carpenter etc...)
Check your MP, sent sent you a personal message.
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fille majeure coutumière = under 25 (age of the legal majority) , over the age of the "majorité coutumière", which varied according th the region (I don't know what was the age in the north), she could not marry without the consent of her living parents but could manage her property.
Nothing to do with adoption (as I thought).
.
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Birth of Marie Josephe Pétronille De Groote daughter of François born in this parish and Catharine Alexander born in the parish of B...?in the diocese of Boulogne
http://archivesdepartementales.lenord.fr/?id=viewer&doc=accounts%2Fmnesys_ad59%2Fdatas%2Fir%2FEtat%20civil%2FFRAD059_MI_A_Z_2011_07_01%2Exml&page_ref=69565&lot_num=1&img_num=1&index_in_visu=
page 958/1120
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The 2d wife of Jean Barthélémy was baptized Marie Josephe Pétronille, she married withe these forenames , she gave birth to Louis Edouard withe these forenames but she is Marie Anne De Groote in the wedding contract .
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According to the family "legend" one of JB's sisters was a chambermaid in Versailles (which became = a chambermaid of the Queen in the castle of Versailles).
In fact MF De Ridder married Jean Louis Richer, a tailor, in Versailles 13d august 1770 and she was "servant at mister Pommier's"
I searched infos on Marie Antoinette's chambermaids ans servants and I found :
http://versaillesblog.blogspot.fr/2008/10/les-toilettes-de-marie-antoinette.html
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henriette_Campan
https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/M%C3%A9moires_sur_la_vie_priv%C3%A9e_de_Marie-Antoinette/Tome_1/14
But you'll have to read french .
Madame Campan, the first chambermaid of the Queen wrote a book(last link above) where she explains with many details how was organized the work of the chambermaids.
If somebody wants to search JB 's sister amongst the domesticity of the Queen, search for a Madame RICHER, not DE RIDDER, since she was married . Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette married in may 1770 (same year).
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Thank you, the French may be a bit beyond me but may find someone who can help.
Yet another query were priests allowed to marry in the 17th century?
Regards
Heather
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I presume you mean catholic priests?
The answer is no .
May I ask why you asked?
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sorry I should have said why I asked of course. One of the De Ridders, Charles b. abt 1653 is shown as being a "cure" but in 1696 he married Jeanne Menaert. He is shown on marriage record of Louis De Ridder and Anne Obay as ? of Spycker.
Regards
Heather
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Certainly a namesake , I'll search .
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I haven't forgotten you, I am waiting for answers from people that I contacted about the date of birth of Jean Barthélémy.
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Thank you I knew you would not just have deserted us!