RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: Gen List Lass on Monday 09 April 18 07:31 BST (UK)
-
Researching my son in laws German ancestors but haven't got far with his dad. Most of the info is either from his Australian immigration papers or his elderly mothers recollections of things her husband Paul told her. Paul died 2003.
Paul Herman Horst GEFFERT born 19 May 1936 Hamburg. Father Christian Paul Geffert, mother Marianna von Leliva
WW2 - Paul and a baby sister are being looked after somewhere in Germany by their mothers mother, nationality possibly Russian. Mother Marianna killed by bomb possibly in Minster? Munchen?, father Christian in POW camp,somewhere. His father was a mechanic but worked in the army as medical sanitator? in war and carried wounded.
After the war, Christian searches for 2 years for his children. Paul was a Ward of State and on a farm for a while. Baby sister is where???? His father Christian remarries, Paul hates the stepmother and takes off on a ship aged about 17. Possibly first to Canada or USA but lands up eventually in Australia 1955 from where I have the story.
I have searched several online records and written to the Hamburg archives but they just told me to hire a researcher to look up Paul's birth, not helpful. I would pay for them to look it up for me! Why can't they do the lookup?
Gen in Northumberland UK
-
the following documents are protected by the German Personenstandsgesetz - Privacy law
Marriage records - 80 years
Births - 110 years
Deaths - 30 years
Pauls birth, 1936, falls in this protected time period and the record is thus still kept in the registry office archives.
To get his birth certificate you will have to find the right registry office and also prove that you are a direct descendant and elligible for application.
-
I had a look at the Hamburg Adressbuch from 1936.
I found a C. Geffert, Hausmeister (Janitor or custodian) in Jenfelderstrasse 20, Hamburg Wandsbek.
This could be Pauls Father.
to find the right registry office I suggest you contact the Generalregister of Hamburg.
This is the governing body of all registry offices in Hamburg.
Give them Pauls date of birth + all details you have.
You will need to pay a fee (somewhere between 17 Euro - 50 Euro).
It should´nt turn out to expensive as you have the correct date of birth.
Bezirksamt Hamburg-Nord - Standesamtliche Registerstelle und Generalregister
Eiffestraße 74
20537 Hamburg
Fon: +49 40 42804-1683
Fax: +49 40 4279-04845
generalregister@hamburg-nord.hamburg.de
Happy hunting
-
Thank you Dave. This janitor in Jenfelderstrasse 20, Hamburg Wandsbek is a possibility, I'll save that one.
I've written to the address you suggested giving them all the details. I hope I don't get the same bog standard reply (in German) telling me to hire a researcher!
Gen in NBL UK
-
Hi
What davecapps has said is correct.
Civil registration records for this period are simply not available.
Even Google Streetview isn't available due to privacy issues!
Church registers ("Kirchenbuecher") are available in the relevant local archives but there is very,very little online.
Please do report on your progress!
Good Luck
Rebel
-
Let us know how you get on.
If you need any assistance let me know.
Dave
-
Thanks for your help, Dave and Rebel.
My cousin pointed out something that might be of help - the FamilySearch Wiki for Germany. There I found how to write a letter to the German archives, in English and in German. https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Germany_Genealogy
Also some tutorials on German scripts. The snip Dave sent me was I think written in old German Script typeface, not easy to read when you encounter it for the first time!
I'll tell you how I get on. I might have to get my son in law to write to them himself as he is the next of kin.
Gen in NBL UK
-
Just checking to make sure you are addressing the right people.
Contact the
Bezirksamt Hamburg-Nord - Standesamtliche Registerstelle und Generalregister
Eiffestraße 74
20537 Hamburg
and request that they provide the address and the name of the registry office where the records can be found. They will not be able to provide any documents.
You can then write to the appropiate registry office and request the documents needed.
As said, if you need any assistance let me know.
Dave
-
Dave, that is the place I have emailed, headed "Birth certificate - where do I apply?"
Gen in NBL UK
-
let´s have a look at the mail you sent. either here or PM
Dave
-
I have just received this:
Hallo!
Ich habe Ihre Mail zuständigkeitshalber an das Standesamt Hamburg-Nord weitergeleitet.
Mit freundlichem Gruß
Birgit Bollweg
(Generalregister)
Is it telling me to write to a particular place? Hamburg-Nord?
Gen in NBL UK
-
no, you don´t have to write at present.
Frau Bollweg has forwarded your mail to the registry office Hamburg-Nord.
You´ll have to wait and see what they say.
Still like to have a squint atwhat you wrote in your mail.
Dave
-
Just thought I´d complicate things a little
Here´s 2 more Chr. Gefferts in Hamburg. This one´s a Tailor
Name: Chr. Geffert [Christian Geffert]
Residence Year: 1915
Address: , Schulterblatt, 128, 6
Residence Place: Hamburg, Deutschland (Germany)
Occupation: Schneider (Tailor)
Name: Chr. Geffert [Christian Geffert]
Residence Year: 1920
Address: Kojen 22, 3 ll
Residence Place: Hamburg, Deutschland (Germany)
Occupation: Schneider (Tailor)
-
Just to follow up on your theory about Marianna's origins. Are you suggesting that the surname von Leliva is Russian?
It is unusual, but there are a couple of German records, including a couple for a baronial (Freiherr) family.
-
Thanks Dave for the two extra Gefferts.
Justin, I've never been able to find anything about a Marianna von Leliva online. I wondered if she'd tried to sound more aristocratic by adding a "von"? But her mother was Russian or what sounded Russian to a small child. I did find a few Polish Leliwa's......
Gen in NBL UK
-
Just speculating about Marianna Leliva/Leliwa and letting my imagination go haywire.
Leliwa 1:
Prussian Infantry Officer.
Bogumil Burchard Alexander von Leliwa born 1873 in Weißenburg, Elsace
Else Meyer ∞ 19.05.1910
Son: Fritz Ferdinand, born 1911
Leliwa 2:
Feiherr Johann Friedrich Wilhelm Ludwig Von Leliva
Born 30 May 1743 - Hönscheid, Rittmeister, Alemania
Deceased 18 April 1836 - Arolsen, Alemania , age at death: 92 years old
Johann's occupation was Oberjägermeister
Parents
Oberst Johann Wilhelm von Leliwa
Spouses and children
Married to Sophie Oschmann †1822 with
Sophie Henriette von leliva 1792-1871
Leliwa 3:
Leliwa is also a village in Poland.
Maybe she was simply Marianna von Leliva / Marianne from Leliwa
The birth certificate from Paul should throw more light on this.
-
Thank you davecapps for your "von Leliva" thoughts.
For someone married to a mechanic, the "von" maiden name sounded pretentious! Unless the lady of the manor eloped with the chauffeur! :-)
I have to take all oral evidence with a pinch of salt as the informant was under 10 when his mother was killed and all paper evidence seems to have disappeared in the chaos of post WW2 Germany.
His proof of birth is only a form filled in, in Adelaide, when he arrived there wanting to stay, in 1955. I cannot post it all online due to privacy concerns but it seems to have at least three different handwritings in one page. And his mothers maiden name seems to have been uncertain as a pencil note has been written beside the space reminding someone, in German, to fill it in! See copy of that bit:-)
He didn't have his actual birth certificate when he arrived in Australia aged 19. I've just checked this with the family, this immigration "proof of age" document is all they have.
BTW - I've still not heard back from Hamburg Nord!
Gen in NBL UK
-
The pencil note says "please enter yourself"
Strange. Why did he use a hyphen between name and surname.
-
I just mailed Hamburg Nord in German and gave them a gentle nudge, well i tried to.
Got a mail back asking me to be patient, it could take up to 3 weeks before we get an answer.
-
Davecapps - I wondered about the hyphen myself. Possibly he put the hyphen in first as he didn't know his mothers maiden name but found out later and inserted it. That's why I wonder if her name is correct or maybe a bit made up just to get the immigration papers accepted.
I don't know how many archives survived the WW2 bombing of places like Hamburg and Dresden but possibly all his original documents were destroyed. Wonder if they had to be reconstructed from other sources?
Gen in NBL UK
-
Davecapps - I've just seen your previous post, thank you for the nudge in German to the registrar. You are much better at this than I am!
I do hope I will get even a tiny shred of info from Hamburg Nord, at the moment I cannot do anything from over the North Sea (or on some old maps, the "German Sea")
Gen in NBL UK
-
Just had a mail from Herr Schlegel, Hamburg Nord.
He verified that your request was received on the 9 April.
Processing time will be about 4 Weeks
-
Good, I can live with 4 weeks.
Gen in NBL UK
-
Hi
Did you ever get a answer from Hamburg nord?
-
I was just saying I'd not heard anything, to a friend today. Do they need a prod with a sharp stick?
Gen
-
Research totally stalled! Son in law is now back on Australia and when he is settled into a job and house, I will resurrect the application for his father's birth certificate from Hamburg.
This has been going on for sooooo long. By now, I would be back to 1837 if he was English!
Gen in NBL UK
-
I've found a possible birth online for a Maria Magdalena (von) Leliwa. Maria Magdalena could be Marianna!
Her birth was in 1905 but on the margin is this note. Can some kind soul translate in for me, please?
Gen in UK
-
Schneidemühl am 4 März
1938
Auf Anordnung des
Amtsgerichts in Schneide
mühl vom 4 Januar
1938 wird berichtigend
vermerkt das der Fami
lienname richtig
„de Leliwa“ lautet
der Standesbeamte
in Vertretung
Schneidemühl 4 March
1938
corrected and registered due to decree of the district court in Schneidemühl from the 4 January 1938
That the surname is „de Leliwa“
The Registrar
in Proxy
-
davecapps
I sent a thank you to you yesterday but it’s disappeared into cyberspace!
Second attempt - thank you for such a speedy reply and translation. I am very relieved to see this is not a burial or death that been added, as she died later during WW2.
But the question remains – why did she change her name only partially? As she would have then been living in Germany, probably a married woman with a different surname, was it her parents or relations who changed the birth document.
If she was born in Poland in 1905, why has her birth document been archived in “Eastern Prussian Provinces, Germany [Poland], Selected Civil Vitals, 1874-1945”? Was it because Poland was invaded and occupied by Germany after 1939?
Each answer raises several more questions!
Gen in UK
-
Hi
the German Empire 1871 - 1918
She was born in Germany
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Deutsches_Reich_%281871-1918%29-de.svg
Dave
-
I've found a possible birth online for a Maria Magdalena (von) Leliwa. Maria Magdalena could be Marianna!
Where can i view the whole document?
-
found the doc on Ancestry.
At the bottom of the page is a side notation saying she married for the first time in Berlin Neukölln
in 1937. The correction was dated March 1938. Maybe she changed it herself
-
https://arolsen-archives.org/en/search-explore/search-online-archive/
- don't know if this helps any but there appears to be a entry for him here, around the time of his emigration.
As well as mentioning Hamburg, against his name they have the place Embühren in the district of Rensberg - I think this was his location in 1955.
https://uitvaartzorgserrus.be/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/RB-03-20-GEFFERT-MARIANNE-ZA.pdf
- Could this be a memorial card for his sister? Mentions the family Von Leliwa (This woman would have been born Geffert and married a Mr Callens). There are a number of descendants you could try to make touch with.
According to this was born Wulfsmoor which isn't that far from Embühren - perhaps this was also the area where their mother died?
-
davecapps
Thank you for this further piece of information. If her marriage date is indeed 1937, it is a huge surprise!
Gen in UK
-
jorose
Thank you very much for both these documents.
The memorial card is indeed for Paul's sister, Marianne. She went to live in Belgium. She died very recently, I hope it was not due to Covid-19.
I have informed her nephew in Australia and he will tell his mother (Marianna's sister in law) tomorrow. Marianna's brother had died several years ago.
I am looking at the first URL you wrote about - https://arolsen-archives.org/en/search-explore/search-online-archive/
that is the passenger list for the ship that took Paul Geffert to Australia. And his work of "farm worker" ties in with his story of being on a farm after he was made a Ward of Court. I think he was a Displaced Person, not a Jewish refugee.
Gen in UK
-
This is interesting.
Birth of Lucia Justine Katharina Leliwa in 1903
https://search.ancestry.de/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=60749&h=6174377&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=its1&_phstart=successSource
it has exactly the same side notation.
Schneidemühl am 4 März
1938
Auf Anordnung des
Amtsgerichts in Schneide
mühl vom 4 Januar
1938 wird berichtigend
vermerkt das der Fami
lienname richtig
„de Leliwa“ lautet
der Standesbeamte
in Vertretung
-
Yes, I've noticed a few daughters all with the same notes on their birth document. It could have coincided with when the family moved from Poland (German Empire) to Berlin. Something for travel documents, work permits?
Does it give their father's occupation on those documents and where they lived?
Gen in UK
-
On Maria´s birth record he is a "Gastwirth" publican or innkeeper, living in Schneidemühl, Ascherstrase 2
On Lucia´s birth record he is a "Gastwirth" publican or innkeeper, living in Schneidemühl, Alte Bahnhofstrasse 50
Gastwirth would now be spellt Gastwirt
-
davecapps
That's interesting, an innkeeper in the German part of our family. Visions of steins being waved about! Maybe not in Poland........
Gen in NBL UK