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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Moray (Elginshire) => Topic started by: themonkeymonkey on Tuesday 10 April 18 21:25 BST (UK)
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Trying to find the parents of Peter Copland. In the 1851 Census it says he was born In Rothes, Morayshire ( the only census I have found) about 1782 and he was a Pauper and Quarry labourer. He died in Aberdeen on 17th November 1852. He was married to Isabel Shand (1787-1824) in Rathven in 1805. I cannot find any mention of brothers/sisters of Peter nor who his parents were. Anyone else got him in their tree please? Thanks.
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There is a Peter Copland age 80 born Rothes Elgin inmate in Old Machar Poorhouse on the 1861
Census occupation formerly Quarrier ..
A tree on Ancestry has a death for him 17 February 1862 Aberdeen Poor House
Might be worth while checking on Scotlands People to see if he is yours
Rosie
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The 1861 census transcription at FreeCEN lists in the poor house in Old Machar Peter Copland, 80, widowed, formerly quarrier, born Rothes, so it looks as if he did not die in 1852. I recommend a look at that 1862 death certificate.
He is also in the 1841 census in Woodside, aged 55, quarrier, born outside the county, with Helen Copland, 50, born Aberdeenshire.
As he was a pauper, there will be information about him in the Aberdeen parochial board records. He will have applied to them for relief and they will have dealt with him. One of the things routinely asked of applicants was the names of their parents. Depending on how long he had lived in Aberdeen, they may have written to Rothes to claim back the cost of looking after him.
I note the baptism of Patrick Copland, son of William Copland, baptised in Rothes on 15 September 1781. The names Peter and Patrick are used interchangeably, so this is probably him. There are seven more baptisms of children to Wil/l/iam C*p*land in Rothes between 1754 and 1779, but no obvious marriage. However at this time the Rothes baptism records often contain useful details about witnesses to baptisms, sometimes describing the relationship of a witness to the child, and one can sometimes deduce the name of a missing mother from these.
I see that the eldest son of Peter Copland and Isabel Shand was named William.
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There is a record of a Patrick born 1781 in Rothes son of William. Patrick and Peter are interchangeable have you considered this one
What are the names of Peters children sometimes they can offer clues
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Not sure if that is my Peter that died in 1862 as it gives his wife as Helen Brown. I've looked at the date of their marriage and it is 1809 on Old Machar but he was still presumably with Isabel Shand then and having children with her right up until 1820 (I have seen death certificates or marriage certificates of some of the children and they all say Isabel Shand as their mother). Peter and Isabel had 7 children:
Margaret 1806-1876
William 1808-1854
Peter 1811
Isabella 1812-1884
Jane 1815
Jessie (Janet) 1818-1900
John 1820-1870
In one way it fits great namewise as on the 1862 death certificate it gives parents as Margaret Findlay and William Copland which is the name of the first 2 children but it also gives the witness as Charles Thick son-in-law and he did not have a son-in-law with that name.
The birth certificate of Patrick Copland in 1781 says: Patrick lawful son to William Copland in Conrack was baptised. Witnesses Patrick Riach in ??? Haugh and Patrick Dean in the Black-burn.
Thanks everyone for your help I do appreciate it, can someone just wave a magic wand and make it all fit? Thanks.
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I would agree that the Peter Copland who was married to Helen Brown is not your Peter as they were having children to Aberdeen area about the same time as your peter and Isobel including a Margaret in 1813 in Old Machar
So I think this rules out them Do you have anything else on Isobel Shand also it is usually the first son and second daughter who are named after the paternal grandparents and the 1st daughter and 2nd son who are named after the maternal grandparents
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Isabel Shands parents were ..... William and Margaret. Which is the name of first and 2nd children. I'm beginning to think this one is going to end up a mystery :(.
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So Peter/Patrick Copland was born in Rothes, moved to Aberdeen, worked as a quarrier, married Helen Brown in 1809, had a family including a daughter who married Charles Thick, and ended his days as a pauper in St Machar poor house.
Your Peter Copland married Isabel Shand in 1805 and had at least seven of a family, born at roughly the same time as the Rothes-born Peter/Patrick's family were being born in Aberdeen.
Therefore we have not one Peter/Patrick Copland, but two.
What evidence did you find that made you think that your Peter, who married Isabel Shand, was born in Rothes?
All seven known children of Peter Copland and Isabel Shand were baptised in Rathven. Do any of their baptisms say what Peter's occupation was? Or where they lived? Or name witnesses to the baptisms?
Where did you find the death you mentioned in 1852? What does it tell you?
How do you know the names of Isabel Shand?'s parents? Do you have a death certificate (in which case where and when did she die?) or* have you made assumptions?
*Edit: I realise that you already said that Isabel died in 1824, so there obviously can't be a death certificate. What is the evidence that the Isabel Shand who died in 1824 was your one?
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The only thing that I have that said that Peter Copland was born in Rothes is the 1851 Census. His marriage to Isabel Shand says they are residents of Rathven. Isabels birth is registered in Source Citation for Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950 an it gives her parents names there.
Death registrations of some of the children actually say that Peter is a master shoemaker so maybe it is not him that died in 1852 as he is listed as a labourer. I think I might need to go back to the drawing board with this one :(.
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If you have Peter showing as a shoemaker, think you have probably gone down the wrong road with the other Peter. There is this Peter in the 1841 census. Copelands showing as born in the County:
John Copland 37 shoemaker
Mary Copland 29
John Copland 10
Mary Copland 6
James Copland 4
Samuel Copland 3
William Copland 1
Lewis Fergusson 20
Catherine May 35
Ann Farquharson 20
Peter Copland 79 journeyman shoemaker
Address: Lingamend, Coull Aberdeenshire
You have a John b. 1820 to Peter and Isabel. Can't therefore be the same John as above.
Monica
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All of the baptisms you have quoted have been transcribed and can be seen on Freereg. In all of them the abode of Peter Copland and Isobel Shand is given as Knowhead except for Margaret where it is given as Buckie.
Witnesses for the baptisms are as follows
Margaret 18 May 1806 Wit William Copland and Margaret Shand
William 31 Jul 1808 Wit William Copland in Moss side and William Farquhar
Peter 6 Jan 1811 Wit Peter Copland Moss side and Peter Copland in Nethertown of Findochty
Isabel 3 Jun 1812 Wit George Moggach in Knowhead and Alexr McCraw there
Jane 16 Apr 1815 Wit Thomas Copland in Portgordon and James Farquhar
Jannet 20 April 1818 Wit James Duncan and Alex'r McCraw Knowhead
John 11 Mar 1820 Wit John Copland and John Farquhar.
If you give us some more detail from one or more of the childrens death certs. we may be able to help further.
William
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Yes, I think you need to go back to basics altogether.
You have no solid evidence to tell you where or when either Peter or Isabel was born, or who their parents were, or when or where they died. I don't know what you mean by Source Citation for Scotland, Select Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950 but whatever it is, it is not an original record and cannot be relied on.
Scotland's People does have a record of a baptism of Isabel, daughter of William Shand and Margaret Young, in the parish of New Spynie on 29 January 1787, but there is no guarantee that this is your Isabel. She could just as easily be one of the 10 other Isabel/Isobel Shands whose baptisms between 1775 and 1790 are in the records at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk, or another one altogether whose baptism record has not survived.
If, and it's a big if, Peter and Isabel followed the naming tradition, you would expect Peter's parents to be William and Isabella, and Isabel's to be Peter and Margaret. But if both their mothers' names were Margaret and/or both their fathers' names were William, the naming tradition doesn't help.
Also, is there any actual evidence to suggest that Peter and Isabel ever lived in Aberdeen? From the absence of any likely-looking listing in the census it looks to me more as if they could both have died in Rathven before the 1841 census.
There is a possible candidate for the labourer who died in Aberdeen in 1852. This is a Peter Copland, aged 68, a day labourer born and living in Monymusk. It is possible that he was taken to the Infirmary in Aberdeen and died there. If you want to follow him up, the Infirmary records are available to consult in the Aberdeen University Library and they tend to be rather more informative than the church burial records.
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Buckie http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=57.6770&lon=-2.9740&layers=5&b=1
Knowhead http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=57.6876&lon=-2.9241&layers=5&b=1 and http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/4800083
Netherton of Findochty http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=57.6988&lon=-2.9035&layers=5&b=1
Portgordon http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=57.6641&lon=-3.0196&layers=5&b=1
For the moment Moss-side is defeating me! There are several unnamed cottages on the map, so it could be one of those.
But all except Portgordon are in the same general area, between Buckie and Findochty.
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There is this death from Banffshire: The People and the Lands Part 6 (Rathven)
Copland Peter 1818 Farmer in Moss-side of Gollachy, died in 1818 aged 80 (Possibly the witness for Peter's baptism?)
There are two baptisms showing with parents Peter Copland and Margaret Geddes with an abode given as Mosside of Gollachy
William 26 Sep 1781 Wit William Boyn and Janet Geddes
Thomas 20 May 1788 Wit Thomas McLachlan and Elspet Copland
(Marriage Peter Copland and Margaret Geddes 5 Nov 1768 - that is quite a gap before William comes along!).
William
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William Copland mothers ms Geddes age 82 died in Rathven 1864
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Still haven't found Moss-side, but Gollachy is just east of Portgordon
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=57.6664&lon=-3.0031&layers=5&b=1
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In all of them the abode of Peter Copland and Isobel Shand is given as Knowhead except for Margaret where it is given as Buckie.
Hmmm. It isn't unknown for a young woman to return to her mother's house for the birth of her first child. If this is what Isabel did, it might imply that her parental home was in Buckie.
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13 May 1876 Margaret Leitch (Copland) died in Portsoy, father Peter Copland master shoemaker deceased, mother Isabella Copland m.s Shand deceased. Informant Peter Leitch son.
15 March 1900 Jessie Flett (Copland) died in Rathven, father - Copland shoemaker deceased, mother Isabella Copland m.s. Shand deceased. Informant William Flett son in law.
So far that is the only information that I have as some children died before 1855 and some died abroad. Next time I am back in Scotland I will do some legwork and see if I can find any information at Aberdeen University Library and perhaps a scout round Rathven and surrounding cemeteries.
Thank you all for your help its very much appreciated.
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perhaps a scout round Rathven and surrounding cemeteries.
The extant stones in Rathven/Buckie/Enzie were recorded by the Council in 1978-1979 and the results are indexed in LIBINDX libindx.moray.gov.uk/mainmenu.asp. I did look there but didn't find anything on Peter and Isabel, so barring transcription errors there isn't a gravestone.
Plan a day or two in Edinburgh before you get here for the legwork.
It is possible that there might be a mortcloth record in the Rathven kirk session records. These are held by the National Records of Scotland. They have been digitised but are not (yet) available on Scotland's People. You can view them in the Historical Search Room in General Register House in Edinburgh, or in the Aberdeen City Archives.
A lot of the land in Rathven was part of Seafield Estates, and indeed the online 1865 Valuation Roll shows Knowhead of Findochty as belonging to the Earl of Seafield. There could well be some rental records in the Seafield Estate archives. These too are in the Historical Search Room in Edinburgh. (I found in the Seafield Estate archives an actual letter written in 1771 by my several-greats-grandfather offering to rent a farm from Seafield Estates in Rothes, and rental records than enabled me to pin down to within a year when my ancestors took on or gave up the tenancies of farms around there.)
Take a good look at the NRS web site and catalogues before you go there, as it takes a while to get familiar with the cataloguing and indexing system, and also some documents may have to brought in from external storage and need to be ordered in advance. See https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/
One thought that might be worth bearing in mind is that there were a lot of Roman Catholics in Rathven, and specifically in the western part of the parish, known as Enzie (pronounce it "ing-y") and they included some Copland families. I still have some distant Copland relatives who are RCs, and there was a Monsignor John Copland (1920-2002) who was incumbent of the RC church in Keith.
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Thank you Forfarian I will make Edinburgh my first stop, thank you so much for your help.
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Re Peter Copland who married Helen Brown at Old Machar in 1809: This is the Peter who died in the Poorhouse in 1862, quarrier.
Helen Copland, nee Brown also died in the Poorhouse, in 1860. The informant on her death record is her son in law, Charles Nicol, who married their daughter Isabella in 1836
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Thanks Emjaye :).