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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: Kirsty Edwards on Wednesday 11 April 18 16:28 BST (UK)
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Is anyone able to shed more light on my 4th great grandparents? I have no idea where in Ireland they lived - where would I start this search?
Maria Aitken Broadley
1812–1899
BIRTH ABT. 1812 • (Northern?) Ireland
DEATH 24 FEB 1899 • Maybole, Ayrshire, Scotland
&
David Crossgrove
1798–1871
BIRTH ABT. 1798 • (Northern?) Ireland
DEATH 1 APR 1871 • Crosshill, Kirkmichael, Ayrshire, Scotland
They were Cotton Weaver's and I can't find anything on them prior to Scotland. They are in the 1851 census Kirkmichael census so would have moved over before then. All their children were born in Scotland.
Thanks
Kirsty
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If their children were born in Scotland then their marriage date and place will be on their birth record if they were born post 1855.
Though looking at the dates they probably were born before 1855 but the info may still be in the OPR'S
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If their children were born in Scotland then their marriage date and place will be on their birth record if they were born post 1855.
All born prior to 1855 unfortunately
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Hi Kirsty. This seems to duplicate yesterday's thread but with a different title.
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Hi Kirsty. This seems to duplicate yesterday's thread but with a different title.
Yeah will delete the other one as in wrong folder
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As you don't know where in Ireland they originated have you tried looking at your enquiry from a local history perspective? Find out if Irish people in Maybole and environs came from a particular area of Ireland. Maria Broadley and David Crossgrove wouldn't have been the first Irish people to settle there. They may have been joining others who had come from the same area in Ireland.
I see from the 2nd document that David's occupation was church officer. Do you know which church? There may be a church history.
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You say all children were born in Scotland. Do you know when & where? Have you found any baptisms?
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You say all children were born in Scotland. Do you know when & where? Have you found any baptisms?
No sorry I haven't been able to find much!
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Religion?
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Religion?
I know it says David was a church officer but to which church i have no idea
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Linen weavers were attracted to Scotland to work in the cotton mills so presumably from Ulster? post the Famine of the 1840's. Maybole also had a shoe industry which employed Irish shoemakers!
Skoosh.
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Hi Kirsty,
10 years earlier on 1841 Census the family are at Girvan. They are transcribed as CROSGROVE.
Their children are born in Ayrshire the eldest being 14 on this census , so they probably arrived in mid- 1820s.
Looby :)
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I would advise looking for Maria and David on all Scottish censuses.
You say you have them in 1851, but what about later censuses? You might be lucky that their birth place is noted in more detail than just "Ireland".
You are unlucky in that the 1871 census was taken on the night of the 2nd of April and David died on the 1st, but you should be able to find him in 1861.
It is likely that Maria and David came from a similar area, so even if you find Maria in 1871/81 after David's death, her pob might give you something to go on.
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I would advise looking for Maria and David on all Scottish censuses.
You say you have them in 1851, but what about later censuses? You might be lucky that their birth place is noted in more detail than just "Ireland".
You are unlucky in that the 1871 census was taken on the night of the 2nd of April and David died on the 1st, but you should be able to find him in 1861.
It is likely that Maria and David came from a similar area, so even if you find Maria in 1871/81 after David's death, her pob might give you something to go on.
That is unlucky. This is what I have for David:
1841
Name David Crosgrove
Age 40
Estimated Birth Year abt 1801
Gender Male
Where born Ireland
Civil parish Girvan
County Ayrshire
Address Chapedonan
Occupation Cotton H L W
Parish Number 594
Household Members
Name Age
David Crosgrove 40
Maria Crosgrove 30
James Crosgrove 14
Mary Crosgrove 12
Elizabeth Crosgrove 10
Jane Crosgrove 8
Henry Crosgrove 5
Margaret Crosgrove 2
1851
Name David Crossgrove
Age 53
Estimated Birth Year abt 1798
Relationship Head
Spouse Moriah Crossgrove
Gender Male
Where born Ireland
Parish Number 600
Civil parish Kirkmichael
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps 9089
Town Crophill
County Ayrshire
Address Dalhowan Back Road
Occupation Weaver
ED 8
Page 30
Household schedule number 107
Line 14
Roll CSSCT1851_134
Household Members
Name Age
David Crossgrove 53
Moriah Crossgrove 47
Mary Crossgrove 22
Elisabeth Crossgrove 20
Jane Crossgrove 18
Henry Crossgrove 15
Margaret Crossgrove 12
David Crossgrove 9
Thomas Crossgrove 5
1861
Name David Crossgrove
Age 63
Estimated Birth Year abt 1798
Relationship Head
Spouse's Name Mariah Crossgrove
Gender Male
Where born Ireland
Registration Number 600
Registration district Kirkmichael
Civil parish Kirkmichael
County Ayrshire
Address Back St E Side
Occupation Cotton Weaver
ED 8
Household schedule number 112
Line 17
Roll CSSCT1861_87
Household Members
Name Age
David Crossgrove 63
Mariah Crossgrove 55
Jean Crossgrove 26
Margaret Crossgrove 24
David Crossgrove 19
Thomas Crossgrove 14
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I would advise looking for Maria and David on all Scottish censuses.
You say you have them in 1851, but what about later censuses? You might be lucky that their birth place is noted in more detail than just "Ireland".
You are unlucky in that the 1871 census was taken on the night of the 2nd of April and David died on the 1st, but you should be able to find him in 1861.
It is likely that Maria and David came from a similar area, so even if you find Maria in 1871/81 after David's death, her pob might give you something to go on.
and for Maria Aitken Broadley I'm missing 1871 & 1881 for her. I couldn't find them.
1891
Name Mrs David Crossgrove [Maria Crossgrove]
Age 87
Estimated Birth Year abt 1804
Relationship Head
Where born Ireland
Registration Number 584B
Registration district Crosshill
Civil parish Kirkmichael
County Ayrshire
Address King St
Occupation Living on Private Means
ED 3
Household schedule number 16
Line 1
Roll CSSCT1891_201
Household Members
Name Age
Mrs David Crossgrove 87
David Crossgrove 18
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Just to get a feel for possible locations, I looked for the surname in the Irish censuses.
I could not find any with the spelling Crossgrove, but found a few in the 1901 and 1911 censuses as Crosgrove, mainly centered around Armagh with a couple in Wicklow.
Just a very vague clue and it maybe worth you searching for the alternative spelling.
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You say all children were born in Scotland. Do you know when & where? Have you found any baptisms?
I found one baptism, their daughter, Jane - what does it mean in terms of religion?
Name Maria Atkens
Gender Female
Spouse David Crossgrove
Child Jane Crossgrove
Household Members
Name Age
David Crossgrove
Maria Atkens
Jane Crossgrove
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I don't use FamilySearch for censuses but I presume this is where you have cut and pasted these censuses from? (just a guess because Maria is called "Mrs David Crossgrove" ;) )
Someone with more knowledge will be know for sure, but I am wondering if viewing the originals on Scotland's People would give more detail than simply "Ireland"?
Sadly I know that this is often not the case.
Added: Just a thought ... I don't suppose you have checked to see if David and Maria married in Scotland?
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I don't use FamilySearch for censuses but I presume this is where you have cut and pasted these censuses from? (just a guess because Maria is called "Mrs David Crossgrove" ;) )
Someone with more knowledge will be know for sure, but I am wondering if viewing the originals on Scotland's People would give more detail than simply "Ireland"?
Sadly I know that this is often not the case.
Added: Just a thought ... I don't suppose you have checked to see if David and Maria married in Scotland?
I got those off Ancestry when I had my two week trial. It was before 1855 (their marriage) so nothing on Scotlandpeoples - where else would I look if in Scotland?
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Church records pre 1855 are on Scotland's people.
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/guides/church-registers
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Church records pre 1855 are on Scotland's people.
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/guides/church-registers
Is it paying for the record? Oh and Church of Scotland! so, Protestant and Presbyterian in Ireland ?
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and for Maria Aitken Broadley I'm missing 1871 & 1881 for her. I couldn't find them.
Maria Crossgrove is listed aged 66 on the 1871 Census at Kirkmichael , Ayrshire
and aged 76 on the 1881 Census at Crosshill, Ayrshire.
Both records are available to view on Scotlands People.
Looby :)
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Just to get a feel for possible locations, I looked for the surname in the Irish censuses.
I could not find any with the spelling Crossgrove, but found a few in the 1901 and 1911 censuses as Crosgrove, mainly centered around Armagh with a couple in Wicklow.
Just a very vague clue and it maybe worth you searching for the alternative spelling.
What about COSGROVE or COSGRAVE like Liam Cosgrave, former Taoiseach (Prime Minister) of Ireland?
There's a website which lists alternatives of surnames in Ireland.
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Post deleted.
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Church records pre 1855 are on Scotland's people.
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/guides/church-registers
Is it paying for the record? Oh and Church of Scotland! so, Protestant and Presbyterian in Ireland ?
Was this marriage after births of elder children, James, Mary and Elizabeth and possibly after Jane's birth?
I'm sorry you've lost me here - this refers to Jane's Baptism. I can't find David & Maria's marriage - I assume they married in Ireland
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Religion?
I know it says David was a church officer but to which church i have no idea
My 1st guess would be a church in Crosshill or Kirkmichael. The 2 villages are within easy walking distance. Perhaps Straiton. It may have been a church in Maybole.
Religious denomination probably Church of Scotland or Free Church. (I'm not clued-up on dates of splits.) There will be a list on GEN UKI, with distances.
Looking at addresses of the family on 1851 & 1861 census, it seems to me that they were in the same place in Crosshill at each census or very near. Back Street is behind present-day Dalhowan Street. The widowed Mrs Crossgrove was living on King St., Crosshill's main street in 1891, so hadn't moved far.
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Re my post # 23. I read it wrongly. :-[ Brain giving up. I've deleted that post. Sorry for confusion.
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I looked for Crossgrove on Griffiths' Valuation. Hardly any.
Cosgrave/Cosgrove over 1000 mentions.
There were plenty of Cosgrave/Cosgrove in most of the 9 Ulster counties except Donegal which had none and Derry where there were very few.
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I looked for Crossgrove on Griffiths' Valuation. Hardly any.
Cosgrave/Cosgrove over 1000 mentions.
There were plenty of Cosgrave/Cosgrove in most of the 9 Ulster counties except Donegal which had none and Derry where there were very few.
Thank you very much
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Church records pre 1855 are on Scotland's people.
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/guides/church-registers
Is it paying for the record? Oh and Church of Scotland! so, Protestant and Presbyterian in Ireland ?
.
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As they weren't RC http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lw3/ gets you locations for Crossgrove registrations up to 1864
Belfast 3
Downpatrick 2
Limerick 1
I know too late for yours!!
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I can't find David & Maria's marriage - I assume they married in Ireland
They may have married in Scotland or Ireland. As eldest known child, James, was born in Scotland, the marriage may have been in Scotland.
Be flexible with spelling of both surnames when searching. Broadley might have been spelled Broadlie or Bradley or some other way.
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Just noticed discrepancies in Maria's estimated year of birth.
1851 census age 47, estimated YOB 1804
1861 census age 55, estimated YOB 1806 (2 of daughters' ages also 2 years out compared with 1851)
1891 census age 87, estimated YOB 1804
1899 death certificate age 87 giving estimated YOB 1812.
David's ages remained consistent.
Taking into account ages of children, if YOB was c1804-6 then she was in her early 40s when youngest son Thomas was born. She would have been over 90 when she died. If YOB c1812 was correct she was in her mid teens when James was born and a lot younger than her husband. Consider possibility of her being 2nd wife and not mother of elder children. We know she was mother of Jane/Jean, baptised 1834; we don't know if she was mother of previous children. I suggest widening search for marriage later to 1834.
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Just noticed discrepancies in Maria's estimated year of birth.
1851 census age 47, estimated YOB 1804
1861 census age 55, estimated YOB 1806 (2 of daughters' ages also 2 years out compared with 1851)
1891 census age 87, estimated YOB 1804
1899 death certificate age 87 giving estimated YOB 1812.
David's ages remained consistent.
Taking into account ages of children, if YOB was c1804-6 then she was in her early 40s when youngest son Thomas was born. She would have been over 90 when she died. If YOB c1812 was correct she was in her mid teens when James was born and a lot younger than her husband. Consider possibility of her being 2nd wife and not mother of elder children. We know she was mother of Jane/Jean, baptised 1834; we don't know if she was mother of previous children. I suggest widening search for marriage later to 1834.
That's interesting...
I've just looked up the death certificates for older children Mary Jane b. 1829 & Elizabeth b. 1831 they both list Maria as their mother. Interestingly, on Elizabeth's DC her parents are listed as Crosgrove NOT Crossgrove... not sure if this is just a spelling mistake as on Mary Jane's its Crossgrove
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One 's' missing from the surname is irrelevant - it's still the same surname. :)
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Another interesting turn of events,
I purchased Thomas DC (youngest child) and it appears his mother is not Maria but Elizabeth (maiden name absent). It does not say he is illegitimate, nor does it say on David's DC that he remarried - Maria outlived him too.
This is odd, as David's mother is also Elizabeth with her maiden also missing.
I think I'm missing here but can't join the odds.
Thomas is listed as David's son in the census but could he infact he David's much younger brother? David's father was a farmer though not a weaver - perhaps he was both...
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Another interesting turn of events,
I purchased Thomas DC (youngest child) and it appears his mother is not Maria but Elizabeth (maiden name absent). It does not say he is illegitimate, nor does it say on David's DC that he remarried - Maria outlived him too.
This is odd, as David's mother is also Elizabeth with her maiden also missing.
I think I'm missing here but can't join the odds.
Thomas is listed as David's son in the census but could he infact he David's much younger brother? David's father was a farmer though not a weaver - perhaps he was both...
Who was named as father on Thomas' birth certificate? The mother Elizabeth may have been David & Maria's daughter Elizabeth. According to a census on which Elizabeth and Thomas appear together she was about 15 years older than him. He might have been brought up as David & Maria's son and may even have believed he was their son.
Farmers and weavers. When weaving was a cottage industry before it moved into factories, some men would be farmers and weavers. Weaving was done in winter when there was less work on the farm. Wife and children would help.
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I've just looked up the death certificates for older children Mary Jane b. 1829 & Elizabeth b. 1831 they both list Maria as their mother. Interestingly, on Elizabeth's DC her parents are listed as Crosgrove NOT Crossgrove... not sure if this is just a spelling mistake as on Mary Jane's its Crossgrove
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Accuracy of information on a death certificate depends on what the informant knew about the deceased.
As Ruskie said, one letter s is neither here nor there. Spellings weren't standardised until late 19th century. Chief Registrar of Ireland wrote a report on the topic around turn of the century. He gave 1 example of a man registering his brother's death. The informant signed the form using a different spelling of the surname from the one he'd given for his deceased brother. When this was pointed out to him he explained that he and his brother always spelt their surnames differently. :)
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Another interesting turn of events,
I purchased Thomas DC (youngest child) and it appears his mother is not Maria but Elizabeth (maiden name absent). It does not say he is illegitimate, nor does it say on David's DC that he remarried - Maria outlived him too.
This is odd, as David's mother is also Elizabeth with her maiden also missing.
I think I'm missing here but can't join the odds.
Thomas is listed as David's son in the census but could he infact he David's much younger brother? David's father was a farmer though not a weaver - perhaps he was both...
Who was named as father on Thomas' birth certificate? The mother Elizabeth may have been David & Maria's daughter Elizabeth. According to a census on which Elizabeth and Thomas appear together she was about 15 years older than him. He might have been brought up as David & Maria's son and may even have believed he was their son.
Farmers and weavers. When weaving was a cottage industry before it moved into factories, some men would be farmers and weavers. Weaving was done in winter when there was less work on the farm. Wife and children would help.
Thomas was born before 1850 unfortunately. What census is that? I don't have it.
That's great information to know as I didn't know that
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I purchased Thomas DC (youngest child) and it appears his mother is not Maria but Elizabeth (maiden name absent). It does not say he is illegitimate, nor does it say on David's DC that he remarried - Maria outlived him too.
This is odd, as David's mother is also Elizabeth with her maiden also missing.
Who was named as father on Thomas' birth certificate? The mother Elizabeth may have been David & Maria's daughter Elizabeth. According to a census on which Elizabeth and Thomas appear together she was about 15 years older than him. He might have been brought up as David & Maria's son and may even have believed he was their son.
Thomas was born before 1850 unfortunately. What census is that? I don't have it.
1851 census in your reply #13 on page 2 of this thread. Elizabeth was aged 20 and Thomas was 5. What was Thomas's relationship to head of household on this census?
1861 census Thomas was 14. Elizabeth was not included in this household.
So who was stated as the father of Thomas according to his death certificate?
Thomas's baptism should show his mother.
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I notice that David's occupation on 1841 census was transcribed as "Cotton H L W". (Reply #13)
H L W = hand loom weaver. This suggests to me that he was working at home.
1851 David's occupation was down as weaver.
1861 cotton weaver.
As someone else said, linen weavers from Ireland moved to the Maybole area for work. A street in Maybole was known as "Weavers' Row". Kirkmichael section of an Ayrshire directory includes a man who was a weaver's agent.
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1851 census in your reply #13 on page 2 of this thread. Elizabeth was aged 20 and Thomas was 5. What was Thomas's relationship to head of household on this census?
1861 census Thomas was 14. Elizabeth was not included in this household.
So who was stated as the father of Thomas according to his death certificate?
Thomas's baptism should show his mother.
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It says Thomas is his Son but perhaps he is either his stepson or grandchild?? David is stated as his father on his DC and Elizabeth no last name as mother (attached).
ANOTHER twist .. I've looked at Elizabeth's DC and it has James as her father NOT David but Maria is still her Mother.
I wonder what's going on?!
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I don't suppose it could be the muddling together of the lineage and children on two closely related couples living in close proximity? A similar confusion I had turned out to be just that.
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I don't suppose it could be the muddling together of the lineage and children on two closely related couples living in close proximity? A similar confusion I had turned out to be just that.
It' likely but I doubt it there are two many of the same names on certificates. Also cros(s)grove is uncommon in that area at the time
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I don't suppose it could be the muddling together of the lineage and children on two closely related couples living in close proximity? A similar confusion I had turned out to be just that.
That's a possibility. Have you traced Thomas and Elizabeth back through every census ? They should both be on 1911 and 1901 census. Have you found their marriages? Have you looked for similar people and eliminated them? One thing to keep in mind is that some people married their in-laws or cousins, so the same surnames crop up in a family. I have 2 lines where a woman's father, brother and husband all had same forename and surname. It happened twice in a generation in one line!
Another explanation is that informant of the death simply made a mistake. This may have happened with Eilizabeth's death certificate. David Crossgrove had been dead for 40 years when Elizabeth died. Elizabeth's daughter may have been uncertain of his 1st name or remembered it incorrectly when registering the death. The father of Maria Crossgrove on her death certificate was James Broadley. Perhaps Maria Whyte confused her grandfather's name with that of her GGF.
If Thomas of the 1914 death certificate was same Thomas who was on 1851 & 1861 census at Crosshill as son of David & Maria it's possible he was their grandson. Putting grandfather's name on documents was common with illegitimate children.
You could really do with marriage and baptism certificates. If Thomas was illegitimate there may have been a note in the parish register.