RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Wicklow => Topic started by: Hickers99 on Thursday 12 April 18 21:30 BST (UK)
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I am a newby to this site. I have traced my parental history back to the 1400s in England and I am now researching my wife's in IRELAND. We have very little information as there is only 2 living relatives in England as far as we area aware and they know very little about the Irish family.
My wife's grandmother, Ann Elizabeth O’Toole, was born on 18/11/1916 in County Wicklow. She was the 5th of 7 children. Her father was Michael O’Toole. He and Ann travelled to Dover, England and he worked as a clerk there. It is believed she worked at Buckland Hospital in Dover. She married Edward William May on 14/12/1933 and had one daughter. They were divorced about 1940 but she remarried Alfred Charles Dilloway in 1945 and had a second daughter in 1947. Ann died in Eastbourne, Sussex on 8/11/1986.
One of the living relatives used to holiday as a young girl in Wicklow although her mother (Ann) never returned to Ireland. She stayed on a farm with her cousins but the address of 40 Convent Road, Wicklow stays in her mind. This would have been in the 1950s. We know no more. So far we have been unable to trace Ann’s family; we cannot find any family trees on Ancestry.co.uk that help; the censuses that would include the children are not available online. There are several O’Tooles in and around Wicklow and Rathdangan in the1901 and 1911 censuses but whether they are relations we do not know. Help from any living relatives or people with family trees would therefore be greatly appreciated! Thank you in advance.
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There's a Convent Road in Wicklow according to Google results- have you tried writing to 'Occupant, 40 Convent Road, Wicklow'?
In the 1911 census there's also a Convent Row in Wicklow. No O'Tooles there but the relatives probably lived elsewhere earlier on or their surname wasn't O'Toole.
Checking the online vital records for Ann's birth without finding a match with that name and date. I've also checked for O'Toole births in Ireland 1910-1917 without a result and likewise a marriage for a Michael O'Toole...
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She was the 5th of 7 children. Her father was Michael O’Toole,,,
So who was the eldest?? On Census??
You obviously know more than what you've posted!!
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http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lwa/ gets you all Toole O Toole
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http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lwb/ gets you all OToole up to age 6 on Census 1911
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There was an Anne Toole born 18 Nov 1909 but she is their first child. The day and month caught my eye.
Father Michael a mileman, mother Elizabeth Wisdom.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1909/01594/1640878.pdf
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Thank you for your swift responses. I’m afraid we do not know much more than I have already put on here. We have been looking for my wife’s grandmother for about 40 years and have only found out what happened to her after she divorced. We have just met my wife’s “new” aunt from the grandmother’s second marriage. Obviously as we do not really know her very well yet we did not want to bombard her with questions!
My wife tells me she was one of 9, not 7 children. We only know her father’s name from the first marriage certificate to my wife’s maternal grandfather. Her first child, my wife’s mother, is very bitter about it and the subject is taboo. The second daughter, the aunt, seems to know very little except what I have posted on here. We will hopefully obtain more information as time goes by.
I will check out any links you give me - many thanks! We are visiting Dublin at the end of this month and will take the opportunity to take the beautiful train ride to Wicklow and have a look around.
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Have you a death for her father Michael in England also noting her age in first marriage 16/17 ?
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Relationships in families can be difficult even years after various events took place and often family stories aren't always 100 % accurate.
If Ann's age is taken from her death certificate it might not be correct. If she was in England in 1939 then the 1939 Register should list her date of birth which would be useful for comparison. We aren't allowed to do full searches of it for you but using the free searches on Find My Past it is sometimes possible to narrow down the details quite a bit.
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Following up on the 1909 birth that Sinann posted earlier-
Michael O’Toole, milesman, son of Michael, m.(25 Sept.1909) Elizabeth Wisdom
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1909/10027/5647465.pdf
Groom's residence given as Clonmannan (Rathnew civil parish, Rathdrum Poor Law Union/Civil Registration District). Bride's residence shown as 5 Mile Point and it's likely Michael & Elizabeth lived there at the start of their marriage (perhaps with her family) as daughter Anne was born less than 3 months later.
1. Anne (18 Nov.1909 Five Mile Point, Newcastle, Rathdrum, Wicklow)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1909/01594/1640878.pdf
2. Lawrence (3 Aug.1911 Newcastle)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1911/01520/1617295.pdf
3. John Michael (26 June 1914 Newcastle)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1914/01404/1577556.pdf
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Wisdom family in 1901- parents Laurence & Elizabeth, daughter Elizabeth age 12...
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wicklow/Wicklow_Rural/Clonmannan/1817133
Her father Laurence milesman also died Wicklow Infirmary after some sort of accident- wife Elizabeth died before him-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1910/05413/4512795.pdf
Elizabeth died 1907, age 40-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1907/05532/4560811.pdf
Possible marriage for Laurence Wisdom & Annie Cullen in 1887-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1887/10811/5943105.pdf
Possibly related? Lawrence O'Toole married (1920) Annie Wisdom-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1920/09280/5360224.pdf
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C Reg Birth results for OToole from 1905 to 1917
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lwc/
If you can get a name of any of the older siblings!
IF they Registered BDM (Districts listed on Left) then the Districts for Wicklow are
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Too recent for certificates to be online but found in FamilySearch civil index- possible children of Laurence & Annie?
James J O'Toole, July/Sept.1928 Rathdrum, mother: Wisdom
Annie J O'Toole, July/Sept.1929 Rathdrum, mother: Wisdom
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Following up on the 1909 birth that Sinann posted earlier-
Michael O’Toole, milesman, son of Michael, m.(25 Sept.1909) Elizabeth Wisdom
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1909/10027/5647465.pdf
Groom's residence given as Clonmannan (Rathnew civil parish, Rathdrum Poor Law Union/Civil Registration District). Bride's residence shown as 5 Mile Point and it's likely Michael & Elizabeth lived there at the start of their marriage (perhaps with her family) as daughter Anne was born less than 3 months later.
1. Anne (18 Nov.1909 Five Mile Point, Newcastle, Rathdrum, Wicklow)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1909/01594/1640878.pdf
2. Lawrence (3 Aug.1911 Newcastle)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1911/01520/1617295.pdf
3. John Michael (26 June 1914 Newcastle)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1914/01404/1577556.pdf
http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/wicklow/photos/tombstones/wicklow-killoughter/target26.html
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Wicklow People (Wicklow), 1 Oct.1910: CARMAN INJURED ... and detained BURNING ACCIDENT AT NEWCASTLE. An accident, which was attended ... serious results, occurred ... night to Laurence Wisdom, of Newcastle who is employed the permanent way staff of the Dublin and South ... Railway. The injured man, who ...
Northern Whig (Belfast), 6 Oct.1910: FATALITY. ... Laurence Wisdom, a railway employee, aged __ years, who resided in cottage near Newcastle, County Wicklow, has died in the County Infirmary the result of injuries received under peculiar circumstances. Wisdom had been suffering from muscular rheumatism ...
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Wm OToole Clonmannon
http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/wicklow/photos/tombstones/wicklow-killoughter/target72.html
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Dear all, sorry, at the moment we have no other information about her father Michael. He may have stayed in England or may have returned to Ireland - he may have left his wife and some of the 9 children there and come to England for work. Yes, her date of birth is from her death certificate, so it could well be wrong.
The aunt, from the second marriage, knew nothing of her mother’s first marriage or the fact that she had a step sister until her mother died - so that was taboo too!
I’ve just had a look: Anne’s age on her first marriage certificate in 1933 is given as 21. That would make he birth date 1912, not 1916! Ann’s age given on the 2nd marriage certificate is 29 (in 1945) which give the birth date of 1916. Interesting indeed!
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No need to apologize!
Given the situation why not try some Reverse Psychology and get a sheet of paper, draw out a family tree using the records found here, with minimal details, and leave it somewhere it might be seen??
If you mother in law sees it she might talk given that you are going to Wicklow to look....
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One of the living relatives used to holiday as a young girl in Wicklow although her mother (Ann) never returned to Ireland. She stayed on a farm with her cousins but the address of 40 Convent Road, Wicklow stays in her mind. This would have been in the 1950s.
This might be worth a letter to Ireland's Own, it often has letters from people looking to catch up with old school friends or work colleagues plus people trying to do family trees and it is read by the older generation.
They have an online version as well with contact details.
https://www.irelandsown.ie/about/contact-us/
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A word of advice please. How do I get “back” from the links on #Reply12 to the entry on Irish Genealogy.ie? I have tried searching for the name of John Michael OToole (and Toole) but I can’t find it.
Many thanks, Mike
By the way, we are making progress as it now seems as though Ann(e) (Elizabeth) O’Toole reinvented herself after her divorce and probably knocked 7 years off her age as well! The photo of the gravestone was also a great help as it has an address on it!
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A word of advice please. How do I get “back” from the links on #Reply12 to the entry on Irish Genealogy.ie? I have tried searching for the name of John Michael OToole (and Toole) but I can’t find it.
The Irish Genealogy bit of reply #12 was copied from my post (reply #8)- Just click on the 'I am not a robot' box and go from there.
Almost always Irish Genealogy lists only the first Christian name so you need to put 'John Toole' into search box rather than John Michael. You can use Family Search's Irish civil registration index to see middle names included but it isn't uncommon to find a child only registered with one Christian name and other names added later (or even as 'unknown' is no names chosen when registered).
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You have Michael on Census with Ann age 1
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Wicklow/Newcastle_Lower/Blackditch/896839/
On Lawrence's Cert name is Toole also.
Michael's Marriage Cert with get both Fathers Names and Addresses
From there you can find Siblings of Michael and Elizabeth and maybe any Births any maybe trace cousins in Wicklow...
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A word of advice please. How do I get “back” from the links on #Reply12 to the entry on Irish Genealogy.ie?
You can't get "back" to the search/results page from an image of the Certs link. You must start the search again from scratch.
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I've posted the Districts for Wicklow.. yours seem to be Rathdrum.
So if you decide you want to look at Toole Marriages in Rathdrum 1905 to 1915 (for example) just fill in boxes accordingly!
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp
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I see you get Groom's Father and townland on Cert
Bride gives no name as Father
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1909/10027/5647465.pdf
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http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wicklow/Wicklow_Rural/Clonmannan/
Only 1 Toole family but with father John
???
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"...wife's grandmother, Ann Elizabeth O’Toole, was born on 18/11/1916 in County Wicklow. She was the 5th of 7 children. Her father was Michael O’Toole......"
What has been found is an Ann, first daughter of a Michael.....
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Thanks Hallmark. I totally get the search method but what is flummoxing me is if I put in Anne Toole in Births 1900 to 1920, I get Anne Toole born on 18/11/1909. If I put in Laurence Toole under the same criteria I get Laurence Toole born on 30/8/1911. But if I put in John Toole, but not John Michael Toole, I get his birth date. How do I then access the copy of the entry in the records such as you have shown? Is there another link or is it from another site?
Also, is there a way of searching for younger siblings when I do not know their names or when they were born? Ann(e) was allegedly one of 7 children born to who I now think is Michael (O)Toole and Elizabeth Wisdom but who the other 4 siblings were, I have no idea. I have tried just putting Toole and OToole with no Christian name and a date range of 1915 to 1925 but none have the mother’s maiden name of Wisdom. Also they do not appear to be more recent than 2016 - is this the cut-off date?
Thank you for your help!
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Thanks Hallmark. I totally get the search method but what is flummoxing me is if I put in Anne Toole in Births 1900 to 1920, I get Anne Toole born on 18/11/1909. If I put in Laurence Toole under the same criteria I get Laurence Toole born on 30/8/1911. But if I put in John Toole, but not John Michael Toole, I get his birth date. How do I then access the copy of the entry in the records such as you have shown? Is there another link or is it from another site?
Also, is there a way of searching for younger siblings when I do not know their names or when they were born? Ann(e) was allegedly one of 7 children born to who I now think is Michael (O)Toole and Elizabeth Wisdom but who the other 4 siblings were, I have no idea. I have tried just putting Toole and OToole with no Christian name and a date range of 1915 to 1925 but none have the mother’s maiden name of Wisdom. Also they do not appear to be more recent than 2016 - is this the cut-off date?
Thank you for your help!
You click on the word Image to get an Image
OK, so you've looked under Rathdrum I presume,,,, then try one of the other Wicklow districts as they may have moved
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See Reply #8 Aghadowey has already found John!!
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Would you believe I didn’t see the word “Image”? Doh! Thanks!
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You get a list of names.....click the one you want and the record comes up with the word Image
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You can just use the Advanced search the following to get all Tooles whose mother was a Wisdom.... all years!!
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/advanced-civil.jsp
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Only the 3
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Yes, that’s all I’ve found. Not sure why Anne’s daughter said her mother said she was one of 9. It doesn’t look like her father remarried as they are both on the gravestone picture previously posted.
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So why not say to mother in law that Ann was the first child???
Then say nothing! Leave her wondering what you know!!!
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https://www.rip.ie/showdn.php?dn=214457/Laurence%20(Larry)O_TOOLE/Bray/Wicklow
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Don't forget Annie (Wisdom) OToole's g/stone is in same Cemetery.....
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1916 is the cut off for births.
You could try FamilySearch but they don't always have mother's surnames and it's only an index they won't have the certs
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Thanks once again. We have just been over to Dublin and Wicklow for 5 days - what a beautiful city and country you have! We managed to visit the library in Dublin which has a genealogy department and the lady there was very helpful. We also went to the GRO Research Centre in Dublin but found that very disappointing - lacking in appeal, no staff, no real help - just a depositary for records. We also went down to Wicklow town and saw the house where the relatives had lived. On the genealogy front we advanced no further. However, we now know the Rathdangan and Bray connections are irrelevant (at the moment). All the family was from around Newcastle, Blackrock, Blackditch and Clanmannan with a great, great grandmother from Monkstown, Dublin. They seemed to have the name of Toole and adopted the “O’” bit early in the 1900s. We plough on but have learned an awful lot in the last 6 months!
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Hi, am a lapsed member of this great site, looking forward to getting back again.
I am living in Wicklow Town and I think I know this family
Census Years1911 Residents of a house 7 in Clonmannon (Wicklow Rural, Wicklow)
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Think I know of this family MF
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By the way there were and still are only 9 houses on Convent Row
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Dear Maeve, Your name was actually given to us by Billy Roberts, who is the caretaker of the cemetery, as a source of local information. However, this research is something of a winter thing and we haven’t done anything more since my last post on this site.
My wife’s relatives actually lived in Convent Road (not Row) but you may still have known them! Billy gave us a lot of information about who is buried in the (2) graves in the cemetery and we have yet to fit all of this into our family tree. I can provide you with what we think we know so far if you are interested in that and you may be able to fill in a few of the blanks.
The main problem is that we know of only one living relative (an aunt over here in Eastbourne, England) who hasn’t been back to Wicklow for the last 50 odd years, although she regularly visited as a child/teenager. If there are any living relatives we would very much like to get in touch with them.
Best wishes, Mike & Jackie
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Hi Mike
I have not been doing any research for some time now, but back on tract. Will follow up ad let you know what I have by the end of the week. Sorry for the long delay.
Regards Maeve
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Hello Maeve, There is no rush! And we will be away on holiday from the middle of this week until the 1st October anyway. We are fascinated by the wealth of knowledge of the locals around Wicklow. It is not the same over here in England, people seem to travel much further afield rather than stay in one place! Any information you have would be wonderful. We are planning on coming over to Wicklow again in May 2019 to see and do more. Best wishes, Mike and Jackie
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Good afternoon Maeve.
We have had a brief communication last year. My wife is a granddaughter of the O’Tooles who used to live in Convent Road (not Row), Wicklow. I have asked Stan O’Reilly if he knew them and he suggested I contact you. We have some information about the family but I am trying to assemble my wife’s family tree and we cannot find anyone who has any information we don't already have. The reason for asking now is that we are currently in Ireland doing a “Grand Tour” and will be coming back through Wicklow on Friday 28th June until Mon 1st July (we sail back on 3/7/19). If you are able to help us at all we would be very grateful - Stan seems to think you have most of the Wicklow families on your computer! Because we are travelling we have limited wi-fi, Facebook, Messenger and email access so we only pick up messages every 2 or 3 days. Hope to hear from you soon.
Mike & Jackie Hickmott.