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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Shropshire => England => Shropshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: chandmer on Saturday 14 April 18 10:30 BST (UK)
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Hi All, first post.
I've been compiling a family tree and supporting documentation on familysearch.org, with forays into ancestry.com and various BMD databases, focused on Australia, where my family has lived since about 1850.
My father's line (Handmer) becomes Jones about 6 generations back - I think Handmer/Hanmer/Anmer/Amer was a "silent" middle name prior to this time. The unit that emigrated to Australia was John Jones (b. ~1816 in Shropshire or North Wales/Snowdonia?), Lydia Williams (born ~1814 in Oswestry Parish, according to her death certificate), and Leah Jones, later Leah Emazine Handmer-Jones, (b. November 1840 in/near Trefonen). John and Lydia married on January 1 1845 in Wolverhampton (I have the certificate). Lydia's parents were called John and Ellen according to her death certificate. John's father was also John, according to his marriage certificate. John Jones' death certificate (likely between 1865 and 1875 in Victoria, Australia) has not been found.
Ship list can be found at http://www.familyhistorysa.org//shipping/passengerlists.html (search Lydia Jones).
I recently found a record of Leah's christening (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JQRK-CB7) but I don't have a copy of the original documentation, nor any real idea of how to get it - do people just call up the church and ask?
I have searched through the 1841 census with a fine toothed comb and haven't found any sign of John, Lydia, and little Leah. By family tradition, they had about 4 other children who died in infancy before moving to Australia - I am descended from their second surviving child and first surviving son.
I am looking for *any* supporting documentation that might throw light on this mystery. In particular, birth/death records for other children, census records for the family in 1841, and birth records from c. 1815. We're not quite sure how Hanmer got mixed in, perhaps John Jones' mother's family name? I'm also unsure of John Jones' mother's name, but if the naming pattern of his children is anything to go by, he and Lydia had a "Leah" and a "Mary Ellen" as nearby female relatives.
Any insights, suggestions, sources, methods, or sympathy is very welcome!
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The Parish Registers for the Parish of Oswestry, Chapel of Trefonen have a baptism on 6 November 1840 for Leah Jones, parents John and Lydia, abode Trefonen, occ. Labourer.
Emeltom
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat :)
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I recently found a record of Leah's christening (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JQRK-CB7) but I don't have a copy of the original documentation, nor any real idea of how to get it - do people just call up the church and ask?
You can find her baptism and image of the entry on FindMyPast in their Shropshire records collection. FindMyPast is a subscription or pay to view site:
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/
Gadget
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A thought about the Handmer/Anmer, etc. Do you know of the parish in Flintshire called Hanmer?
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/FLN/Hanmer
One of my lines moved from that parish to the Shopshire/Denbighshire borders in the 1750s.
Gadget
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There's a possible baptism for Lydia Williams in West Felton, which is not far from the parish of Oswestry- 4 miles from Oswestry:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/SAL/WestFelton
Baptism
West Felton 18 April 1813 Lydia d of John Williams (labourer) and Martha.
I'm not sure about the 1846 marriage as John is down as being a Miller but a labourer on Leah's baptism entry.
Gadget
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Was it ony Leah who used the HANDMER name, not either of her parents?
Debra :)
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Ship list can be found at http://www.familyhistorysa.org//shipping/passengerlists.html (search Lydia Jones).
The manifest is here:
https://www.archives.sa.gov.au/sites/default/files/GRG35_48_1_49-3_Trafalgar_0.pdf
Debra :)
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There's a muddled online tree that has most of the children of John and Lydia as Handmer Jones or Handmer-Jones.
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Was it ony Leah who used the HANDMER name, not either of her parents?
Debra :)
No mention of Handmer/Hanmer/alternatives on Leah's baptism record.
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Here they are in 1841....
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQ2R-66C
John is a Miller.
Unfortunately it is impossible to find JONES/WILLIAMS births via the GRO indexes as there are just so many possibilities.
Debra :)
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That fits with the 1846 marriage but not with Leah's baptism entry. It would be easy to get to Liverpool area from Oswestry/Trefonen. The marry in Wolverhampton in 1846.
Debra - Have you got access to the Australian records to show where John was born/parents?
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Tree has John's death as 1867, Victoria. Not sure of parents. It says Evan and Elizabeth, Guilsfield. Montgomeryshire. Marriage entry has it as John Jones, Labourer. John is often equiv to Evan but the link is to an Evan who is a farmer of 57 acres!
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I see that they did use the name for one birth in Victoria.
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/indexsearch.doj
The only place to get info about John's parents would be his death cert but that hasn't been found. His birthplace should be on the children's Victorian birth certs.
Debra :)
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Unfortunately it is impossible to find JONES/WILLIAMS births via the GRO indexes as there are just so many possibilities.
Debra :)
Leah's baptism is on FindMyPast.
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By family tradition, they had about 4 other children who died in infancy before moving to Australia
I was thinking of these ones.
Debra :)
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Are the deceased children named on Lydia's death certificate?
Debra :)
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Are the deceased children named on Lydia's death certificate?
Debra :)
Online death record just has her parents. John's death entry (1867, Victoria) has parents as Evan(John on marriage cert) and Elizabeth*
The online tree has ~
England:
Leah 1840
Mary Ellen 1843- before 49
John 1847- before 49
Australia:
/Ann 1849
Charles 1851- 1910
Mary Ellen 1856
* Added - but see later post - information from intestate bond/ admon and 1851 census suggests that this is a different John.
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The Evan Jones, farmer, Guilsfield, father of John on the online tree died intestate 24 April 1855. There is a bond on the Welsh Wills site. Difficult to read but it's signed by Elizabeth Jones, his widow and an unidentified John Jones. Admon granted to Elizabeth on 9th Oct 1855.
Gadget
Added - just checked the 1851 census which is referred to in the online tree. Son John Jones is still living with parents and is 34, unmarried!! So this one is not correct for Leah's father.
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WOW! Thank you so much for your help, already so many good questions.
First - "muddled online family tree" that's mostly my doing. The version on ancestry is cribbed (by them) from the one I've been doing on family search, which almost always contains a link or a reference to primary documentation.
Second - I am aware of the town of Hanmer - I've even visited it long ago. I've reviewed the various Hanmer family trees both there and in Myddle from the relevant time period, but there's no obvious contenders, like for instance a "Leah Hanmer" born about 1790 - but I could look again.
Lydia Jones' children are listed in her death certificate, which can be viewed here:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2qT_gSEY6W6UWpzWi1VWFdLZkE (and here)
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2qT_gSEY6W6VW9nRDFYam92Sm80S3FrWjF2QVM1TUNqOThB
There is a John and Ellen Williams family in Oswestry who had two children (Owen and Mary) in about 1815 (eg https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J33D-R97). There are also numerous Williamses in Wolverhampton who have roughly the right names and dates, but nothing compelling.
John Jones (senior) and John Williams are both listed as labourers in the 1845 marriage certificate. John Jones was given as a miller in his marriage certificate, but in Australia worked as a sweep, a miner, and possibly a sailor. His son worked as a thresher for a time before becoming a farmer.
Earliest written record of Handmer-like name is in 1856 (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2qT_gSEY6W6bkVGZEJVaThIcDg). John Jones' name is given here as John Amer Jones, and his daughter (his last child before Lydia's death) as Mary Ellen Hangmer Jones. Confusingly, Mary Ellen was renamed Lydia after her mother died and lived with Leah for a few years before accidentally drowning in about 1863. The informant in Mary Ellen/Lydia's birth record is Leah, who was about 16 at the time and barely literate - so spellings vary throughout her family's life. By 1875 (when the next generation survivors resurfaced as adults) they were no longer Jones.
I think that answers most of the questions thus far, I'll check back though!
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More details:
I think the Liverpool entry for the 1841 census is convincing. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1sjo6N6KjFIzjC9INVKaAQylTHfeCCvoC Thank you for finding this!!
John Jones' death certificate has not been located. I made a thorough search of court, prison, and newspaper records in Victoria between 1858 (the year of Lydia's death) and 1865 (they year a lot of stuff happened), and after John Jones was sentenced to two weeks hard labor for stealing oats, I lose the trail. Newspaper coverage: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/197092090?searchTerm=john%20jones&searchLimits=l-state=Victoria%7C%7C%7Cl-decade=186%7C%7C%7Cl-year=1865%7C%7C%7Cl-month=12%7C%7C%7Cl-availability=y%7C%7C%7Cl-australian=y%7C%7C%7Cl-title=582
Plenty of John Jones to go around, but I've checked every death certificate in the right age window and none of them are the right one. It would be really nice to find his death certificate, though! I sometimes wonder how they find out info for the death certificate, though, if no-one else around knew the details.
For context, in 1865, John's eldest Leah was married to a local farmer, his next son (my great great grandfather) Charles Thomas Jones had disappeared at age 14, possibly to sea, his next youngest, John Ezra had been shipped off to industrial school until 1873, when he disappears, and his youngest daughter Mary Ellen/Lydia, was already dead. All of this is reasonably well documented and I can share if people are interested, but it's also pretty sad - fair warning.
Leah's christening record is barely readable - though I'm pleased to have found "FindMyPast"! Can anyone help me identify the place names listed and the comment at the end of the line? https://drive.google.com/open?id=1bHVkiN0Q8RGUkKZUM0xQHXkjq3Go8zFU
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There is a John and Ellen Williams family in Oswestry who had two children (Owen and Mary) in about 1815 (eg https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:J33D-R97). There are also numerous Williamses in Wolverhampton who have roughly the right names and dates, but nothing compelling.
Both baptisms show John and Ellen/Eleanor as living in Leg Street which is fairly central. I'm wondering if the Mary could have changed her name to Lydia at some stage prior to Leah's birth, especially with the daughters named Mary Ellen. Just an outside possible but there was nothing to prevent her doing so. It might be worth trying to trace the Mary. I've checked (as you probably have) for a baptism in the surrounding counties of Denbighshire and Montgomeryshire in addition to Shropshire but nothing showing. I grew up in that area and the county boundaries weave in and out!
Gadget
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I have been able to track down the John and Ellen Williams family in Oswestry. They appear in the 1841 census (Salop Road) and 1851 census (Weston Lane). John seems to become a Malster in about 1830. They have a lot of children between 1818 and 1833, including Owen, Mary, Edward, John, Margaret, Emma&Elizabeth (twins), and probably another Mary. They were both born in Northern Wales, and I'm currently trying to track down their BMD details.
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The baptism entry for Leah reads
Nov 6 Leah John + Lydia Jones Maclydd Trefonen Labourer Edw.d Jones (Private)
Emeltom
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I have been able to track down the John and Ellen Williams family in Oswestry. They appear in the 1841 census (Salop Road) and 1851 census (Weston Lane). John seems to become a Malster in about 1830. They have a lot of children between 1818 and 1833, including Owen, Mary, Edward, John, Margaret, Emma&Elizabeth (twins), and probably another Mary. They were both born in Northern Wales, and I'm currently trying to track down their BMD details.
I don't think Elizabeth and Emma were twins (1841 - Elizabeth was 12 and Emma was 10). From the baptism records they were baptised on same day rather than born on same day.
I see (1851) that John was born Llandogay (possibly Llandegla) and Ellen/Eleanor Llansanffraid (?Glan Conway or Glyn Ceiriog) as both say b. Denbighshire.
Possible death for Ellen/Eleanor in 1854:
Oswestry 13 Sept 1854 Eleanor Williams, Leg Street, aged 59
An interesting entry on the 1861 for a John Williams, 70, journeyman brewer, b. Llanfyllin, Montgomeryshire. He is married to an Elizabeth, aged 53. It might be worth chasing up.
Emelton - . It's Moelydd, Trefonen - location to the SW of Trefonen. Have sent OP the map location , etc. See your reply #1
Gadget
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Link to map showing location of Moelydd:
https://maps.nls.uk/view/101593828#zoom=3&lat=4354&lon=7016&layers=BT
(NLS links are playing up today!)
gadget
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Good find on a possible death - would there be a death certificate somewhere with more biographical information?
I tried to follow up and this is as close as I got: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1gpf4osLCPsUO2Iiz8hE9jz7ZBlAa04we - none of the records on ancestry or familysearch seem to contain age at death - where is the best place to find this information? EDIT: Found it on findmypast. Still not sure how to find more detailed biographical info.
On Lydia's death certificate, it says she's 43 years old in 1858, which would place her birth in 1815. It also states that she was married at age 24, which would place the marriage at 1839, before Leah's (otherwise illegitimate) birth. We know that her marriage actually occurred in 1845, so either she was married at age 29, or she was born in about 1821 (and had Leah at age 19) and died at age 37, or somewhere in between these values.
Any chance wrjones might chime in?
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England & Wales death certs usually have very little info - often not even spouse's name.
You can order here:
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp
Also, the burial info that I gave has as much info as you'll find online - FindMyPast is probably the best source. Maybe check for newspaper reports - see https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/
or, again, via FindMyPast.
Gadget
PS -wr and I often work in tandem in this area ;D
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Leah's christening record is barely readable - though I'm pleased to have found "FindMyPast"! Can anyone help me identify the place names listed and the comment at the end of the line? https://drive.google.com/open?id=1bHVkiN0Q8RGUkKZUM0xQHXkjq3Go8zFU
Very confused as you e-mailed me about this last night and I replied with the relevant information. I explained the entry and even found where Moelydd was and gave you map links!
Also here:Link to map showing location of Moelydd:
https://maps.nls.uk/view/101593828#zoom=3&lat=4354&lon=7016&layers=BT
(NLS links are playing up today!)
gadget
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I didn't forget - you quoted something I posted before you emailed me the details. Thank you!
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One of the things which is puzzling is the 1845 marriage cert for John and Lydia. On this, both their fathers are given as J. <surname> and labourer as if they didn't know.
This is especially puzzling, given that the John that you've identified was a malster on the 1841 and 1851, and is also given as a malster on the baptisms of Elizabeth and Emma in 1832.
Hmm - not convinced about John and Ellen.
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Ah - I see, you posted the request on here and then e-mailed me about the entry with the same questions, which I then replied to ;D
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I'm not convinced either, especially given all their other children were consistently documented.
Lydia's death certificate lists her parents, birthplace, and place of marriage, which is consistent with the 1845 marriage certificate.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2qT_gSEY6W6UWpzWi1VWFdLZkE
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2qT_gSEY6W6VW9nRDFYam92Sm80S3FrWjF2QVM1TUNqOThB (better view of right hand edge)
We also have Lydia and John's first known child Leah in Trefonen in 1840, and then the three of them in Liverpool in 1841.
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Did you follow up on sister Mary. Maybe difficult with Williams but at least it's not Jones :-\
Will look at your links tomorrow.
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Only thing that I can think of at the moment that might link Lydia to Ellen and John is that she was born to Ellen before marriage (as Leah was to Lydia). I've had a good look for a baptism without a surname for Ellen but nothing so far.
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Here is Lydia and John Jones' marriage certificate, for consistency: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wbyYL_HoE8JfkhJafLU9CkvxBV64vOx9/view?usp=sharing
I'll look into Mary Williams and see what comes out. I haven't been able to find marriage certificates for John and Ellen Williams of Oswestry.
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Two Mary Williams' baptisms were recorded in Oswestry in 1819. One of them died in 1840. Neither seem to be recorded locally in the 1841 census.
There was a Mary, daughter of William and Mary also from Leg Street, baptized in 1818. William Williams was a Naylor or Taylor. Was this a time and place where baptismal names varied from given names?
Lydia William's last child, Mary Ellen Hangmer Jones was born in 1856 and had her name changed to Lydia in infancy, so there's a precedent for Mary->Lydia evolution.
None of the Lydias born in Oswestry between 1812 and 1822 seem to be connected.
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One of the things which is puzzling is the 1845 marriage cert for John and Lydia. On this, both their fathers are given as J. <surname> and labourer as if they didn't know.
If you have a look at FamilySearch for other marriages which took place in that church, all of the father's names only have an initial for their first name.
Debra :)
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Hmm- yes but you selectively quoted - the occupation was my main point:
One of the things which is puzzling is the 1845 marriage cert for John and Lydia. On this, both their fathers are given as J. <surname> and labourer as if they didn't know.
This is especially puzzling, given that the John that you've identified was a malster on the 1841 and 1851, and is also given as a malster on the baptisms of Elizabeth and Emma in 1832.
Hmm - not convinced about John and Ellen.
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Looking at baptisms, John became a malster sometime between 1822 and 1828.
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Lydia's death certificate of 1858 also has John as a labourer.
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I went through the 1841 census in Trefonen looking for a reference to Moelydd farm, which was the listed abode in the 1840 birth certificate for Leah Jones. It's referred to as "Moyleth Farm" on page 2 of District 12 in the census. (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1kBI9aWohFh-UVK5oXeYib403JOXpl14-), where it appears the farmer's family name is Tudor. There is a male servant Thomas Jones and female servant Ann (?) Jones present in the household, both aged 20. John and Lydia would have been about 26 in 1841. No sign of any Williamses at Moelydd.
Progress thus far:
Location of birth record and 1841 census record for John, Lydia, and Leah.
Location of birth records, 1841 and 1851 for candidate family of Lydia in Oswestry, though inconclusive connection.
As usual, many many questions!