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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Kat7272 on Saturday 14 April 18 18:22 BST (UK)

Title: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: Kat7272 on Saturday 14 April 18 18:22 BST (UK)
Hi

The listing says 'Marylebone' for a grave that I am trying to locate, how do I find a grave plan for this grave please?
Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: iluleah on Saturday 14 April 18 18:29 BST (UK)
A list of St Marylebone churches http://www.genuki.org.uk/church_list/MDXStMarylebone
Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: Bookbox on Saturday 14 April 18 18:57 BST (UK)
There were next to no church burials in Marylebone in 1888. The churchyards of metropolitan London were closed to burials after the mid-1850s, and the deceased were taken to outlying cemeteries.

What sort of ‘listing’ do you have that states Marylebone? Is it a workhouse or infirmary death register?

What was the religious denomination of the deceased?

Depending on the above, the St Marylebone Cemetery at East Finchley might be a possibility. The records are not online. You would have to contact the cemetery directly, and they charge £58.94 for a single lookup.
https://www.westminster.gov.uk/east-finchley-cemetery
Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: dawnsh on Saturday 14 April 18 22:42 BST (UK)
Finding burials in and around London/Middlesex is notoriously difficult as there are quite a few possible locations.

Maybe you could post the name of the person you are looking for along with the date of death and their last address and we can check our resources for you.
Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: Chris Doran on Saturday 14 April 18 23:13 BST (UK)
Yes, please give the details as some of us have lists we can search.

I for one have a fair number of photographs at St Marylebone/East Finchley Cemetery and may be visiting again in the not too distant future. It's well kept, but there's a lot of bare grass and illegible headstones and the numbering system isn't logical everywhere, so there are graves I can't find even with numbers. Don't put much hope in finding a grave just wandering around.

How well off were they? This will give a clue as to whether there was a headstone and whether it had a chance of surviving legibly if at all. The common grave areas at St M are totally devoid of headstones, not even the little knee-high ones used elsewhere. Some cemeteries did not permit them.

As dawnsh says, London burials are a problem as people weren't necessarily buried anywhere related to where they lived. I tend to suspect it was related to which cemetery had a timeslot, the best prices, a contract with the undertaker/Council etc.
Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: Kat7272 on Sunday 15 April 18 08:03 BST (UK)
Hi

Thanks for the info so far everyone, it's very interesting.

The grave I am looking for is George Nelson Strawbridge (1824 - 1888) born in Bristol.

I have tried to find details by searching the internet, but it seems so complicate.

Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: dawnsh on Sunday 15 April 18 08:33 BST (UK)
Do you have his death cert?

Dec 1888
STRAWBRIDGE    George Nelson    64    Marylebone    1a   416
Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: rosie99 on Sunday 15 April 18 08:43 BST (UK)
London Daily News 15 October 1888
Deaths
On the 10th inst. at 11 Blandford Square N.W  George Nelson Strawbridge of the London Stock Exchange age 64
Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: dawnsh on Sunday 15 April 18 08:45 BST (UK)
According to his entry in the probate calendar

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=str&yearOfDeath=1889&page=6#calendar

he died 15th October 1888.

It might be worth getting a copy for £10 to see if he specified where he was to be buried. (The death cert won't tell you)

You can order from the linked page but you must also quote the folio number which is 469 (on the image)

He isn't at Kensal Green, could he have been returned to Bristol?
Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: [Ray] on Sunday 15 April 18 10:08 BST (UK)
Hi

He left £7100+.

Don't forget (last resort?) London Necropolis (Brookwood Cemetery)
£15 for the basic search.

There's an Ann Strawbridge regd same year same district.
Could it be his wife? Could they have been buried "together"?

Ray
Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: Bookbox on Sunday 15 April 18 10:18 BST (UK)
Quote from: Kat7272 on Saturday 14 April 18 18:22 BST (UK)
The listing says 'Marylebone' for a grave that I am trying to locate

We still haven't been told the source of this 'listing', which might have a bearing.
Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: Rattus on Sunday 15 April 18 10:35 BST (UK)
Quote from: [Ray] on Sunday 15 April 18 10:08 BST (UK)
There's an Ann Strawbridge regd same year same district.
Could it be his wife? Could they have been buried "together"?

Deceased Online has her burial in Hampstead Cemetery on 27 Oct 1888. The only associated document available for purchase is the burial register scan. Often there is a further document with grave details and names of other burials in the plot. Don't know if the absence of this means that she was buried alone, or just that these details aren't available for this plot. I have a distant relative buried in this cemetery and the 'grave details and 24 other burials' document is available for purchase, so I'd be inclined to conclude that Ann Strawbridge is buried alone.

Deceased Online doesn't have anything for George Nelson Strawbridge at any location from 1888 onwards. (For the record, there's a George Edwin buried 1953 and a George Henry buried Jan 1888; nothing for a plain Nelson.)
Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: dawnsh on Sunday 15 April 18 15:24 BST (UK)
Quote from: Bookbox on Sunday 15 April 18 10:18 BST (UK)
Quote from: Kat7272 on Saturday 14 April 18 18:22 BST (UK)
The listing says 'Marylebone' for a grave that I am trying to locate

We still haven't been told the source of this 'listing', which might have a bearing.

The GRO death index, Dec 1888, and probate gives his actual address confirming reg district.
Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: rosie99 on Sunday 15 April 18 15:38 BST (UK)
The Ann Strawbridge burial found by Rattus has the same address as I posted earlier  :)

Quote from: rosie99 on Sunday 15 April 18 08:43 BST (UK)
London Daily News 15 October 1888
Deaths
On the 10th inst. at 11 Blandford Square N.W  George Nelson Strawbridge of the London Stock Exchange age 64
Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: Kat7272 on Sunday 15 April 18 16:50 BST (UK)
Hi

Thanks for the info so far everyone, it's very interesting.

The grave I am looking for is George Nelson Strawbridge (1824 - 1888) born in Bristol.

I have tried to find details by searching the internet, but it seems so complicate.

Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: rosie99 on Sunday 15 April 18 16:59 BST (UK)
The internet does not have every burial / cremation record on it.   Was George still with his wife or were they separated.  Who was the informant on his death certificate.

If George & Ann were still together in 1888 I would expect them to be buried in the same place, perhaps he was cremated  :-\
Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: Kat7272 on Sunday 15 April 18 17:11 BST (UK)
Sorry that last post may have been repeated. I got the info from Ancestry.

Very interesting information, thank you all for going to the trouble of sharing your knowledge.

His wife did die in the same year and I know his history, but I would like to know where he is buried. I will have to study the posts and decide on what to purchase / or where to contact.

Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: rosie99 on Sunday 15 April 18 17:15 BST (UK)
He died on 10th October 1888 - she was buried 27 October 1888 so they died very close together
Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: Kat7272 on Sunday 15 April 18 17:20 BST (UK)
Chris Doran, I think he could have afforded a headstone and some of the family were stone masons. I hope that helps, thanks.
Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: rosie99 on Sunday 15 April 18 17:34 BST (UK)
Maybe his will states what he wants done with his body when he dies  :-\
Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: dawnsh on Sunday 15 April 18 19:52 BST (UK)
As you know George & Ann died very close together and you know where Ann is, Hampstead Cemetery on 27th October 1888, I would ask the cemeteries' office at Camden to check to see if George who died 10th October is with her.

I know of several 'missing' entries that aren't missing, just wronly transcribed so they don't match up.

http://camden.gov.uk/ccm/content/contacts/council-contacts/community-and-living/contact-leisure-department-cemeteries-management/
Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: Rattus on Sunday 15 April 18 20:14 BST (UK)
Fair point dawnsh. In general I find Deceased Online really useful, but the limited search facilities are sometimes frustrating. Specifically, the lack of ability to search geographically within the UK.

In this particular case, being able to search all Hampstead burials for 1888-89 would be really helpful. I've tried the advanced search with 'include similar names' checked, but to no avail.

In my experience, the staff at the Islington & St Pancras Cemetery office have always been as helpful as possible, but very busy. I swim at the pool nearby, happy to pay a visit this week.
Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: Bookbox on Sunday 15 April 18 21:11 BST (UK)
Ann Strawbridge was buried at Hampstead Cemetery, not at Islington & St Pancras Cemetery. 

Hampstead Cemetery is at the top end of Fortune Green Road in West Hampstead.

https://www.camden.gov.uk/ccm/content/community-and-living/lifetime-events/hampstead-cemetery/

The records are held at the cemetery itself, and (some) at Camden Local Studies, in Holborn Library.
Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: Rattus on Sunday 15 April 18 22:11 BST (UK)
Quote from: Bookbox on Sunday 15 April 18 21:11 BST (UK)
Ann Strawbridge was buried at Hampstead Cemetery, not at Islington & St Pancras Cemetery. 

Yes, I was the person who posted this in the first place. The Islington and Camden Cemetery Services office, which looks after Hampstead Cemetery, is based at the Islington & St Pancras Cemetery office, which is why I was offering to go there. I figured they would be able to tell me more about the availability of the appropriate records.
Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: Chris Doran on Monday 16 April 18 01:44 BST (UK)
Mistranscriptions and omissions on Deceasedonline have been reported before *. I once did some spot checks at St P & I and found omissions in their records pre 1900. Perhaps the problem extends to other Camden cemeteries.

Hopefully Rattus's visit to the office and maybe Ann's grave will reveal all. Good luck!

* I've also found incomplete plot numbers. e.g. they omit consecrated/unconsecrated in places where X-cons and X-uncons are different sections some distance apart.
Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: Rattus on Monday 16 April 18 16:25 BST (UK)
Quote from: Chris Doran on Monday 16 April 18 01:44 BST (UK)
Mistranscriptions and omissions on Deceasedonline have been reported before *. I once did some spot checks at St P & I and found omissions in their records pre 1900. Perhaps the problem extends to other Camden cemeteries.

The staff at Islington & St Pancras have mentioned on a couple of occasions that the records for the two halves of the cemetery (i.e. the Islington half and the St Pancras half) are very dissimilar. Islington's are quite meticulous, whereas the St Pancras ones can be problematic. I wonder whether this might contribute to the issues that you've identified.

I can't compare directly between the two halves based on personal experience, as all of my research has ended up being on the St Pancras side. However, I can say based on today's experience that the Hampstead Cemetery records are so much better organised than the St P ones. On which note, findings to follow...
Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: Rattus on Monday 16 April 18 16:45 BST (UK)
In short, Ann Strawbridge is buried alone. This was verified first via the cemetery service's computerised records for this specific plot (N6/28), then via a scanned copy of the plot register entry.

The latter document is fascinating and raises further questions. The plot was purchased by "Exors. of Mrs Ann Strawbridge" on 2 August 1888. The first interment fee was paid at the time of purchase and the grave was excavated to 7 feet deep "in reserve". Ann was then interred on 27 October. There is a field on the paperwork titled 'Monument' which looked like it should contain a cost figure, but it simply contained a tick. The cemetery services employee didn't know how to interpret this, other than it looks like the plot should have some sort of memorial.

So the plot was purchased nearly three months in advance of burial and was dug in preparation for two people. Presumably this indicates some kind of lingering illness on Ann Strawbridge's part. It also begs the question of who the second person was intended to be and why the plan was changed. Finally I wonder about it being purchased by the executors (in advance???), rather than a named individual, but maybe this is just standard practice in certain circumstances.

I now have a plot location map; I'll head over ASAP this week to see whether there's a memorial that can tell us any more.
Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: Rattus on Monday 16 April 18 17:03 BST (UK)
Quote from: Rattus on Sunday 15 April 18 20:14 BST (UK)
Fair point dawnsh. In general I find Deceased Online really useful, but the limited search facilities are sometimes frustrating. Specifically, the lack of ability to search geographically within the UK.

I've just discovered something new (to me). You CAN search geographically within the UK, but you have to select 'United Kingdom' as the country first. Then further drop-down boxes start to appear, getting progressively more granular down to individual cemetery/crematorium level. Excellent!
Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: dawnsh on Monday 16 April 18 17:29 BST (UK)
You can only do an advanced search with a valid subscription, mine has lapsed as I can't afford that and FindMyPast in the same credit card month
Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: Rattus on Monday 16 April 18 17:34 BST (UK)
Quote from: dawnsh on Monday 16 April 18 17:29 BST (UK)
You can only do an advanced search with a valid subscription, mine has lapsed as I can't afford that and FindMyPast in the same credit card month

Ah yes, that too. But I had completely missed the point that you only get the fields for region, county etc after you've selected UK.
Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: Rattus on Tuesday 17 April 18 14:32 BST (UK)
I visited Hampstead Cemetery this morning. In short, nothing directly useful. However, like yesterday, there is some additional information that begs further questions, maybe.

The plot was easy to locate. The map was accurate, the grid system is tightly packed and plenty of the neighbouring plots have stonework indicating their plot numbers. I have no doubt that I found the right grave.

This area was under some trees and was rather overgrown: holly, ivy, brambles, nettles. I always forget to bring gloves. Neighbouring memorials were mostly covered with ivy but it was fairly easy to remove. Plot N6/28 appeared to have no memorial.

Then after a while I noticed a bump at the foot of the grave, rather than the head. When I cleared it, I found a small memorial, only about a foot high. Obviously once the base of a cross or similar, but the top part was long gone. The wording, on the (stone) pages of a book, was:

Left side:
BABY
NELLIE
DIED
22ND		Right side:
APRIL
1884
AGE 8
MONTHS

Underneath:
THIS LOVELY BUD SO YOUNG AND FAIR
THUS EARLY CALL'D TO DOOM
JUST CAME TO SHOW HOW SWEET A FLOWER
IN PARADISE COULD BLOOM

Obviously rather unexpected, given that the Strawbridge plot was purchased in 1888. I did a couple of cursory searches (e.g. female Strawbridge deaths in 1884) but there's nothing immediately obvious.

My theory is that this is actually the monument from the apparently unmarked grave in the next row, and that over time it has moved from the head of that plot (which would be N5/28) to the foot of its neighbour (i.e. N6/28).

Could be confirmed by asking the cemetery service to check that plot, but as the original objective was to find pointers to the burial place of George Nelson Strawbridge, I'll leave it there for now. If anyone thinks it's worth researching the above info further, I'm open to persuasion.
Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: dawnsh on Tuesday 17 April 18 15:06 BST (UK)
from the GRO index & deceasedonline

Nellie Margaret Mary Wentworth, buried 24 April 1884

don't have a current sub for further details such as plot number etc
Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: rosie99 on Tuesday 17 April 18 16:11 BST (UK)
She was 8 months old
Plot N6 26
abode 1 Well Walk Terrace, Hampstead
Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: Rattus on Tuesday 17 April 18 17:38 BST (UK)
OK, I was convinced that I had the right plot but this casts doubt on that. Either Nellie's memorial has indeed travelled slightly, or I lost track of where I was. It all seemed quite clear at the time.

I'll go back to the cemetery and do a fuller inventory of the area, then see if the cemetery office can help out with lookups rather than spending a fortune on Deceased Online credits.

I'll also pay a bit more attention to the overgrown and apparently unmarked neighbouring plots, in case I missed something amongst all the undergrowth. Note to self: gloves.
Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: Rattus on Wednesday 18 April 18 14:25 BST (UK)
Problem identified and solved, but the bottom line is that there is still no memorial to report.

I asked one of the cemetery workers if there was a public loo. He let me into the gatehouse to use the staff facilities and while there I saw a massive plot map on the wall. With permission, I studied it more closely. It is subtly different to the printed map the that office staff had provided.

On the printed map, there is a very clear grid system with incremental section numbers (N4, N5, N6, etc) and incremental plot numbers that operate in parallel, so N4/28 is next to N5/28, which is next to N6/28, and so on. It looks like a neat and tidy row/column layout.

However, the map in the cemetery gatehouse reveals that the actual layout is 'off' by one number per section. When I found a clearly marked N4/28, I concluded that the sought plot N6/28 was two sections up (per the printed map). It's actually two up and two along.

This explains why I found Nellie Wentworth's memorial (on N6/26) at the plot where I was expecting to find N6/28. A wider review of headstone plot numbers in the area confirms this. Yesterday I took it for granted that the map was correct. As ever: check and double check.

The correct plot is even more overgrown. However, there was no sign of a memorial. The neighbouring plot N6/29 was similarly overgrown but the memorial was unmistakeable and easy to clear, so it seems that there is no memorial for Ann Strawbridge.

I've done a Deceased Online lookup for the surname on the headstone that I worked out was N6/29 and it confirms the plot number.
Title: Re: Burial in 1888 listed as Marylebone, how do I find out where the grave is?
Post by: Kat7272 on Sunday 22 April 18 20:10 BST (UK)
Hi all

Just checked in after a period away from the forum to do some decorating.

Thank you all very much for your help, I am very grateful, but particularly, thanks to Rattus. Excellent research Rattus, very good of you to go to the trouble of looking for the grave.

Interesting reading regarding your search.  As there were several stone masons in the family, I had hoped the graves would have a headstone.

Joseph, born 1792 buried in Staffs has a be a beautiful head stone. I was hoping this would be the case for George and Anne. The 9 Strawbridge's buried in Warstone Lane, Birmingham, haven't any stones, admittedly I have only checked the grave of Patience, but I can't find details of any headstones for the other 8. I will make a visit in the better weather, I have a contact that volunteers to maintain the cemetery and he has been a great help on giving me details of what to take notice of on the map for the grave plots.

Again, thank you all for your help. Well done Rattus. If I find any more details on the subject, I will let you know.

Kat