RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: seemex on Sunday 15 April 18 18:16 BST (UK)
-
I wonder if anyone can give an explanation to the difference in these uniforms. Both are supposedly Royal Navy uniforms, and should have been taken between 1933 and 1943. I noticed that one jacket has 4 rows of buttons and the other has three. One also has a white cover on the cap. I'm not at all familiar with uniforms of any type so looking for some help from the experts.
Thanks in advance
Brian
-
I can't seem to upload the photos....sorry...will keep trying. This is the message I get:
Sorry! There is already an attachment with the same filename as the one you tried to upload. Please rename the file and try again.
Ok, success! :)
-
The 4 button double breasted uniform is that of an Officer, you can just see the lace on his cuffs too.
The 3 button double breasted uniform is that of a Petty Officer and he would not have lace on the cuffs, his would be blank or have buttons.
I collect WW2 Royal Navy Uniforms so will try to take some pictures of each and post up.
-
Thanks Rootes,
It's the three button guy I'm trying to ID. The photo was taken in Shanghai but I don't have a year. He looks to be quite young so must have been early in his naval career. I have a family member who would fit, but I can't find much on his records. His name was Charles Grenville Cowley, and he supposedly attended the Dragon School in England, then Royal Naval College in Dartmouth, and was a cadet aboard HMS Wren. He stayed in the Navy and retired as a Lt Cmdr retiring after the war. He died at only 35 at Tubney, Abingdon at the home of his mother. His adoptive parents were Lady Cowley and Sir Arthur Ernest Cowley. I've ruled out everyone else that it could have been but I don't have any proof of his visit to Shanghai at any particular time.
-
I can't help out with the name and history but the three button uniform was not that of a Petty Officer. the cap badge, although fuzzy, is the wrong shape. The tab on his lapel marks him out as a cadet ( not to be confused with midshipmen who wore, and still wear, white tabs) so this fits with your man and was taken very early in his career. The white cap was replaced by a black one for all personnel during the second world war and for several years afterwards. the later picture was taken during this period by which time he had made Lieutenant. Advancement to Lieutenant Commander by retirement was practically guaranteed for officers who passed through Dartmouth.
C
-
CPercival,
Well that makes some sense and fits better with the time line. Now I just have to find a way to trace his movements with a bit more accuracy. I had a hunch about the photo being taken as a cadet.
Thank you,
Brian
-
I agree with the 3 button jacket being that of a cadet, i didnt notice the collar pattern until I looked at the photo again.
The cap badge is hard to determine.
-
Looks to me like a MN cadet. The cap badge is not RN.
Regards
Hugh
-
What is MN cadet?
-
Merchant Navy.
-
Merchant Navy
Regards
Hugh
-
I wonder if the photos are of the same guy but some years apart? The four button guy was definitely in merchant marine in Asia when he was younger, so the 3 button time frame could have been him in the 30's. The later one is 1944 at his wedding. He must have joined regular navy for war
-
I'm inclined to agree with HMac, the cap badge gives much more the impression of MN (Merchant Navy). I also checked out HMS Wren. as far as I can establish she never served in the Far East. having commissioned in the early thirties she spent all her service in the Atlantic and home waters. She was sunk in 1940 by enemy action.
C
-
Just so I'm clear on the consensus here. The three button, younger officer with the white topped hat, is merchant navy? The four button one, is he regular navy? I know the four button person was also merchant navy earlier, but hard to decide if both photos are of the same person.
I found a photo of my relative, Lt Cmdr Charles Cowley, I guess this is his official photo As he died in 1949 I'd guess it was done maybe 1948? ( 35 when he died in 1949 )
I don't think he was either of the previous officers ( ears are different )
-
I would go so far as to say that the four button officer is not your Charles Cowley. The harder I look at the picture the more I suspect that the cap badge on the black cap is not RN. I also feel that the rings on his sleeve are not as thick as I would expect RN Lieutenants braid to look. I think you have two pictures of the same man both in Merchant Navy uniform, one as a cadet the other as perhaps a second or third officer. Nothing to do with Lieutenant Commander Charles Cowley.
C
-
cpercival: Thanks for you assessment. I agree with what you say. Although I'm not familiar with uniforms, it does make sense from other info that I have on them. The final photo, the one of Charles Cowley, I'm sure of and the four button chap is William Gosnold. I thought possibly the young fellow with the three buttons might be Charles, but more likely it was Bill Gosnold. It could be neither of them I guess but I think not.
Anyway, thanks all for the input. It's been very enlightening as usual. I always learn a lot here.
Brian