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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: AngelFish on Sunday 15 April 18 20:57 BST (UK)
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The Antiques Roadshow was just on TV (BBC1 in the UK), and there was a lady on with her son. When the lady was aged about 12 she found a 'treasure hunt' which started in a small tin she found in the back of the shed. Clues had been written and hid around the property by a young girl who used to live there, eventually leading to photos and then some other things which were left up a chimney.
The young girl wrote that she was not going to school because she was ill, and that the Doctor had said she needed to go away to stay with her Aunt at the seaside. The lady who found the clues and her son had tried to find out who a girl was but failed, and on a second attempt narrowed down to two potential people. They said the little girl didn't return - probably died bless her.
Did any one else see the program and get any other information such as an address and date?
Wouldn't it be lovely if we could find more information about this and then give it to the BBC to pass on?
Anyone up for the challenge?
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The show was filmed at the Black Country Living Museum in Dudley. It was episode 7 of 26, series 40.
This is a link to The Antiques Roadshow website http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mj2y
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Hi Angelfish, I'll watch that on catch up later. I wish I had known they were filming there, I would have gone - I live close to the Black Country Museum. I'll see what clues I can pick up :)
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It was fascinating wasn`t it,but I can`t think why she could not take her things with her.
Years ago a little girl in my class at school contracted tuberculosis,she went to a sanatorium.
I don`t know about taking things with her,things that went into the sanatorium could not come out.
I don`t know about things being fumigated,but her friends wanted to lend her books etc but it was not allowed.
Hope the mystery is solved. it seems likely there was a sad ending.
. Viktoria.
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I was only half watching (distracted by other things).
If it was in that family’s house (i.e. a known address) I would have thought it wouldn’t be too hard to trace who was living there in 1940 or at least the years leading up to it (e.g. electoral rolls, 1939 Register). I couldn’t understand why they had drawn a blank.
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The letter dated April 1940
Her name was Catherine Short, 12 years old.
Living at 64 Bullsmoor Lane.
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The letter dated April 1940
Her name was Catherine Short, 12 years old.
Living at 64 Bullsmoor Lane.
Ah good. Google tells me there’s a Bullsmoor Lane in Waltham Cross, Enfield, or was the relevant one in Dudley where the show was filmed?
Glad others were paying better attention than I was :)
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The letter also said that she lived with her mother and father, and had a brother.
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Some info may be on the 1939 register re parents?
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Right, just iPlayered it and the woman’s accent strikes me (unscientifically!) as more Enfield than Dudley, so perhaps Waltham Cross is the right address?
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The Enfield address seems to be linked to a Leonard G Fell just before the war.
Leonard G Fell married Edith E Holmes, Dec qtr 1918 Edmonton.
Daughters’ birth registrations showing in 1920 & 1922.
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In 1949, the Pumfreys live at the address in Enfield.
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The letter dated April 1940
Her name was Catherine Short, 12 years old.
Living at 64 Bullsmoor Lane.
Great thanks JenB
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Right, just iPlayered it and the woman’s accent strikes me (unscientifically!) as more Enfield than Dudley, so perhaps Waltham Cross is the right address?
;D ;D ;D
The lady could have lived in Dudley for most of her life? ;D
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There is a William and Pamela Short living at no.2 in 1964
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It was fascinating wasn`t it,but I can`t think why she could not take her things with her.
Years ago a little girl in my class at school contracted tuberculosis,she went to a sanatorium.
I don`t know about taking things with her,things that went into the sanatorium could not come out.
I don`t know about things being fumigated,but her friends wanted to lend her books etc but it was not allowed.
Hope the mystery is solved. it seems likely there was a sad ending.
. Viktoria.
It could have been a case of wanting to make a treasure hunt, rather than not being allowed to take the things with her. She obviously had help from her parents to make the treasure hunt, maybe they were just doing it for the fun of it. Must be boring staying in bed all day at that age.
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error deleted
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In 1939, there is a Catherine E Short ( born 1927) who lives at 104 Ballspond road, Islington. Name corrected to Short, originally ditto marks Bixby.
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In 1939, there is a Catherine E Short ( born 1927) who lives at 104 Ballspond road, Islington. Name corrected to Short, originally ditto marks Bixby.
Do you know who she was living with? Maybe the family moved between the 1939 register and setting up the treasure hunt and letters.
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In 1939, there is a Catherine E Short ( born 1927) who lives at 104 Ballspond road, Islington. Name corrected to Short, originally ditto marks Bixby.
Would this be the birth registration for that person?
1927, 2nd quarter.
Catherine E BIXBY, mother's maiden name VERRALL.
Registration District Islington. Vol 1b. Page 436.
Parents marriage:
1926, 3rd quarter.
George H BIXBY and Kathleen VERRALL.
Registration District Shoreditch. Vol 1c. Page 137.
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In 1939, at the previous address I gave:
Catherine E Short (Bixby) 19 May 1927 Female At School Single
George H Bixby 08 Jul 1895 Male Postman Married
Catherine Bixby 02 May 1907 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married
George H Bixby 26 May 1929 Male At School Single
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The Bixby girl didn’t marry Mr Short until 1952, at which point the register was updated with her new name.
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On Google maps number 64 Bullsmoor lane Waltham cross has a shared drive and garage (where the final clue was secreted.
https://tinyurl.com/y7lzrf83 (https://tinyurl.com/y7lzrf83)
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In 1948, Shorts and Bixbys living at nos 40 and 42 Cowper Road Stoke Newington. Will have to leave this now until tomorrow, but hope that is enough for others to get going on!!
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I don’t see the relevance of Catherine Bixby ???
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Living at 64 Bullsmoor Lane in 1945:
Edith E Fell
Leonard G Fell
Audrey A Foxcroft
John R Foxcroft
I regret suggesting this should have been straightforward :)
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Ah, I didn't realise that the name was corrected due to marriage... thought it was a simple solution!!
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So is there a different Bullsmoor Lane somewhere?
Or could the whole thing have been concocted at a later date (hoax or school project type thing)?
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I don’t see the relevance of Catherine Bixby ???
She might have been Catherine Short but is ruled out now as being Cathering Bixby until she married marriage.
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The Bixby girl didn’t marry Mr Short until 1952, at which point the register was updated with her new name.
So she can't be the right one can she?
Marriages Mar 1952
BIXBY Katherine E SHORT
Short Frederick W Bixby
Stoke N'ton 5d 1724
Sorry, just seen previous post!
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There is a Bullsmoor off Nottingham Road in Belper, Derbyshire. It is a lane but doesn't look like you'd fit 64 or more houses there.
Strangely enough, on the opposite side of Nottingham Road, is Short Street.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Bullsmoor,+Belper+DE56+1JS/@53.0259797,-1.463825,276m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x4879f325fd065c81:0x289784d5bc49b663!8m2!3d53.0255216!4d-1.4638328
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There is a page on Fabebook for the BBC Antiques Roadshow. It has the clip from the show. People have left comments below, including a gentleman who has left the following information:
"Catherine L Short was born in 1928 and she appears on the 1939 Register in Ruislip. Her father was Henry M Short and her mother was Elizabeth Short. I cannot find a death for her in the years following but she must have already died, otherwise her entry in the register would be blacked out."
I think he means redacted.
A lady has then posted this: '"on electoral registers in Ruislip up to 1963 at which time she was living at Field End Road."
Then this: "Thanks for all your hard work everyone! You’ve been brilliant! We’ll compile all the clues in the office 🤞 any more suggestions do email antiques.roadshow@bbc.co.uk"
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It was fascinating wasn`t it,but I can`t think why she could not take her things with her.
Years ago a little girl in my class at school contracted tuberculosis,she went to a sanatorium.
I don`t know about taking things with her,things that went into the sanatorium could not come out.
I don`t know about things being fumigated,but her friends wanted to lend her books etc but it was not allowed.
Hope the mystery is solved. it seems likely there was a sad ending.
. Viktoria.
It could have been a case of wanting to make a treasure hunt, rather than not being allowed to take the things with her. She obviously had help from her parents to make the treasure hunt, maybe they were just doing it for the fun of it. Must be boring staying in bed all day at that age.
I am pretty sure it was said by the woman on A,R that the girl could not Take her things with her
Angelfish,because of ill health.
I don`t understand why at all.. Viktoria.
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It was fascinating wasn`t it,but I can`t think why she could not take her things with her.
I am pretty sure it was said by the woman on A,R that the girl could not Take her things with her
Angelfish,because of ill health.
I've just watched the entire section again.
It wasn't stated anywhere that she couldn't take her things with her.
In the letter she said that she was unwell and was going away and had decided to hide her things.
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On FreeBMD there is birth for Catherine L Short Mar Qtr 1928 mmn Lee in Romford
Also a marriage for Henry M Short and a spouse with surname Lee Sep Qtr 1921 Sunderland
Chris
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On FreeBMD there is birth for Catherine L Short Mar Qtr 1928 mmn Lee in Romford
Also a marriage for Henry M Short and a spouse with surname Lee Sep Qtr 1921 Sunderland
Chris
This family were at 577 Field End Road Ruislip in 1939 and according to Anc* were still in Field End Road in 1962. If this is the family I'm not sure why the address is Bullsmoor Lane in 1940. Perhaps they were staying with relatives
Chris
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Catherine L Short of Romford & Ruislip appears to have had two older brothers born in Sunderland. I think Catherine of Antiques Roadshow fame said she only had one (and the photo only showed one older sibling).
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Catherine L Short of Romford & Ruislip appears to have had two older brothers born in Sunderland. I think Catherine of Antiques Roadshow fame said she only had one (and the photo only showed one older sibling).
I saw them and tried to look for a deaths of either of the brothers but there were too many records (and my bed was calling).
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Catherine L Short of Romford & Ruislip appears to have had two older brothers born in Sunderland. I think Catherine of Antiques Roadshow fame said she only had one (and the photo only showed one older sibling).
I saw them and tried to look for a deaths of either of the brothers but there were too many records (and my bed was calling).
The elder of the two brothers, Roger Lee Short b 1922, died in 1944 on active service (RAFVR). He has a CWGC record.
Parents: Henry Mallett Short & Elizabeth.
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The younger of the two brothers, born in 1925, sailed to Sydney in 1950 aged 24 (the Ruislip address listed as his UK abode is a perfect match). Intended future permanent residence: Australia.
I won’t name him in case he is still living.
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Catherine L Short of Romford & Ruislip appears to have had two older brothers born in Sunderland. I think Catherine of Antiques Roadshow fame said she only had one (and the photo only showed one older sibling).
The Ruislip family had 2_boys as well as Catherine. John J born 1925 and Roger L born 1922
It seems Roger was in the air force and died in 1944
The letter on the show says...I am 12 years old and live with my mother father and brother. There is a possibility that Roger had already joined the RAF and didn't live at home by 1940.
Clutching at straws a bit i suppose!
Chris
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Roger married in Hendon in 1942. He is likely to be one of the redacted entries in the Short household in 1939.
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But no connection to the Bullsmoor Lane address where the things were found? I tried to find the address using google streetview to see if the house was still there, or replaced with something more modern. I couldn't find it.
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Google Maps took me to a row of substantial looking semis on the south side of Bullsmoor Lane, though I didn’t get a Streetview opportunity to check that one of them was numbered 64. So far as one can tell anything about the building style from a bird’s eye view, they might well have been there in 1940. If built with a garage (subject of one of the clues) then I’d imagine they were built in the 1930s, rather than significantly earlier. The 1928 electoral roll shows only a small number of voters in Bullsmoor Lane, whose addresses appear to be farms, stables and named (not numbered) houses, so the suburban development must have taken place in the years following that.
Presumably no 64 was where the Antiques Roadshow lady lived when she found the stuff in the early 80s, though it wasn’t made explicitly clear.
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The houses are shown on a 1935 Ordnance Survey map. The scale is pretty small, but they are pretty obviously the same semis as are there today.
https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/535780/199784/10/101218 (You might need to zoom out before the map shows itself)
Here are the same houses on a later map https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/535780/199784/13/100765
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I found the near odd numbers but not the even ones.
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No one named Short on Bullsmoor Lane is listed on the 1942 London BT phone book.
I used the well known website anc*, which doesn't have the 1941 phone book for the second half of the alphabet.
The 1949 London phone book has Leonard G FELL at 102 Bullsmoor Lane, Enfield.
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From Anc* electoral rolls, the Short family were living in the Gloucester area in 1938
Chris
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64 Bullmore Lane Waltham Cross
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We seem to have drawn a blank :-\
There doesn't seem to be any available evidence that a family called Short lived at 64 Bullmore Road at the relevant time
A lot of ideas have been bandied about on the Antiques Roadshow Facebook page, but no-one has come up with any solid evidence that I can see. In fact the last three postings I've seen all cast doubt on the authenticity of the 'treasure hunt' :-\
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Yes, as I said before I have been wondering whether this was perhaps a bit of fun for later inhabitants of 64 Bullsmore Rd, and "Catherine Short" was a figment of someone's imagination (perhaps some old photos and bits and pieces had been found, and someone decided to weave a story around them).
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... do you know, when I was watching this programme I said to OH "If the "Rootschat" ferrets get onto that, it'll be solved or exposed in a trice....."
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Yes, I can't see this being solved. Especially without seeing all the letters in detail, knowing for sure the address, how all the things had been protected in the hiding places. The photo was in good condition.
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Naybe worth someone contacting the roadshow to invite the lady and son to give us some details
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Bet they won't!
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Although it was fascinating viewing my feeling was that it was a hoax, not by the people showing it but by someone who owned the house prior to them.
That photograph looks a bit older than 1928 when it should date from (from the woman's clothes and hairstyle I would say just prior to WWI).
If the girl lived at 64 Bullsmore Lane then that would have been the address where the note was found, there would have been no need to include the address on the note. But the people who bought it to the show didn't say the address where it wad found or even which part of the country it was from.
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For what it's worth, the handwriting in the letter as seen in the TV clip is very neat, and looking at it closely I feel sure she spelt her name 'Catherin' without an 'e'. It looks odd, but that's what it looks like. (The fact that it is so odd perhaps reinforces the hoax theory.)
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I watching tonight - hope but not expecting an update..
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For what it's worth, the handwriting in the letter as seen in the TV clip is very neat, and looking at it closely I feel sure she spelt her name 'Catherin' without an 'e'. It looks odd, but that's what it looks like. (The fact that it is so odd perhaps reinforces the hoax theory.)
That first "clue" is in several pieces having been folded small to fit in the little tin. I think the name Catherine does have an "e" on the end, but it is precisely on a fold, which is why it is not easy to make out.
The date is in the early stages of WWll (obviously). Possibly the Short family might have been staying with family or friends for some reason.... ? holiday?.
It does seem incredibly elaborate for other people to have made up. If children decided they wanted to make a treasure hunt, why not just do it in their own name?
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This will probably turn out to be a red herring but I studied the letter carefully on pause, and if you look at other words ending in 'n' and those ending in 'ne', it definitely looks to me like there is no 'e' on the end of 'Catherin', even with the fold.
Another thought has occurred to me. Does the letter look like it's written in biro/ballpoint? I just did a check and Mr Biro only invented that sort of pen in 1938 and I wouldn't have thought its use would have become widespread so quickly. A child writing in ink in 1940 would surely be using a fountain pen - but it doesn't like that sort of ink to me.
The game is afoot!
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I don't wish to be cynical, but did no one else think it rather odd that in the intervening years, nobody had cleared out the shed, looked in the trunk (or thrown it out), lifted the lino, looked on the beam in the garage or swept the chimney?
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I did think it odd about the chimney, it's likely to have been in use but not damaged the items?
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Was this ever resolved? Was it a hoax or was Catherine found?
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The episode of Antiques Roadshow is repeated on TV today. I wonder if they will give an update?
EDIT: No they didn't.
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All very interesting.
Watched the roadshow today, its obvious that the lady that was on the show didn't come from the Black Country when she found the 'treasure' when she was 12 year old in 1980.
The '39 register shows only 2 Bullsmoor Lanes, and 1 with the address 64 (unless there are some bullsmoor lanes on the Known missing places from Register e.g derbyshire and Kent etc), its likely the one in Enfield is the correct place as this has a garage as mentioned in the clues and Google maps shows this 'likely garage' as shown in the image I posted.
I don't think this was a scam/hoax or whatever and I think this actual treasure hunt took place on the 15th April 1940, but even with the info that were in the clues I think it will hard to find 'Catherine' as we haven't got access to all the relevant records, ideally we'd need rent/rate books for the house on April 1940 to find any Shorts living there as certainly on 29th September 1939 when the register took place no Shorts lived there. It seem improbable that by the 15th April 1940 (6 months after the registration) that the Fells had all moved out and the Shorts moved in but not impossible.
Let's all try and put this to rest (unless someone else has done this already) and get all the relevant facts together:-
15th April 1940 the date the clues were written
Catherine Short the name of the person writing the clues
1928 The Approx date of birth as mentioned by Catherine as she was 12 in 1940
64 Bullsmoor Lane the address in the clues
She had a Mother, Father, and 1 Older Brother (obviously all alive)
Her Mum had a sister, who was in a relationship with a man (may not be married)
She may have moved to the seaside between 16th April 1940 and 31st Dec 1940 (Cath says soon)
Does anyone else have any factual or logical information gained from the clues?
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Watched the repeat last night,a thought occurs to me that maybe she was unwell and was evacuated. It was an area at risk
Barb
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Probably
What age did they stop evacuating 'kids' 12?, 14?, 16?, also when did evacuations take place as ww2 started in 1939, did they start then or much later into the war?
According to http://bombsight.org/explore/greater-london/enfield/ there were 571 bombs dropped from 7th October 1940 - 6th June 1941 in enfield, so I have to assume no bombs were dropped prior or that the data for 15th April 1940 isn't available.
Thanks
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What age did they stop evacuating 'kids' 12?, 14?, 16?, also when did evacuations take place as ww2 started in 1939, did they start then or much later into the war?
Evacuation started the 31st August 1939, when 1.5 Million children, pregnant women and other vulnerable people such as the disabled, evacuated to safer countryside locations in just two days. As nothing happened for some time - The Phoney War, a lot returned to the cities. They were evacuated again when heavy bombing raids started in the autumn of 1940 - The Blitz - and then again later, in 1944, when Germany attacked Britain with V1 Flying Bombs and V2 rockets.
It was children of school age, which then was ages 5 -14.
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So it's possible she was back in the house on the 15th April until the autumn of 1940, it's unlikely that the brother was evacuated then as he looked older than his sister in the picture. So if we look for the Shorts we may find the brother being there and then disappearing, maybe to goto war?
Are the electoral rolls available up to 1940 for Enfield? it wont show Catherine, bit it may show Mr and Mrs Short and maybe her brother, so we can get the names of the family as they were not mentioned in the clues.
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Groom, my sister was six in 1940, and I was three.
She was at school,I was not.
I wonder why she was not evacuated with school in 1939 when she would be
5, her Birthday in April of that year.
Mine in May when in 1940 I would be 3.
After the Manchester blitz of December 1940 we were both taken by our parents to my father’s family in Shropshire.
Could parents refuse to let their children go.?
My M in L brought her boys back as she was not at all happy with the conditions,the woman who fostered them was contemplating going back to work and M in L did not want them to be “ Latchkey children”, and other things as well,not washed in front of the fire ,head to toe for going to bed etc .Thanks in advance for any enlightenment.
Viktoria.
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Evacuation was voluntary.
Stan
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Groom, my sister was six in 1940, and I was three.
She was at school,I was not.
I wonder why she was not evacuated with school in 1939 when she would be
5, her Birthday in April of that year.
Mine in May when in 1940 I would be 3.
After the Manchester blitz of December 1940 we were both taken by our parents to my father’s family in Shropshire.
Could parents refuse to let their children go.?
My M in L brought her boys back as she was not at all happy with the conditions,the woman who fostered them was contemplating going back to work and M in L did not want them to be “ Latchkey children”, and other things as well,not washed in front of the fire ,head to toe for going to bed etc .Thanks in advance for any enlightenment.
Viktoria.
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Yes it was voluntary.
My Granny was evacuated from Newcastle with her Mother who was pregnant. My Great Granny didn't like it in the countryside and went back taking Granny with her.
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So: who thinks it was real, and who suspects a later hoax? )Then we might have reached the end of the treasure hunt!)
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Hopefully.
I hate to leave things like this alone, there HAS to be an answer either hoax or impossible to solve.