RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: tomlingirl on Thursday 19 April 18 02:02 BST (UK)
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Hi all - I have a mystery that I need some help to solve - thankyou in advance for any assistance you can offer.
I am looking for death and burial information on my 2 x great grandfather - George Croot.
Born: abt. 2 Dec 1846 • Elm, Wisbech, Cambridgeshire, England
Died: on or abt. 15 Sept 1908 - Stratford region, New Plymouth, New Zealand.
NZBDM has no online record of his death and when I approached them, was given the transcribe error excuse with no additional help.
I have gleaned death info from Past Papers article of his illness and subsequent death at a private hospital in Stratford region (George Croot - Hawera & Normanby Star, Volume LVI, Issue 0, 17 September 1908)
I have done extensive cemetery searches in the New Plymouth area, and other areas that he has lived, had family, etc... and come up with nothing on his burial.
There was a 'story' floating around some of the distant relatives that George's body was put onto a train and transported to where is was to be buried, but I can not substantiate this story - but with the lack of research results, I'm looking at trying to follow this up somehow to see if the research material is there about how human bodies are dealt with by NZ Rail back in 1908.
Was also wondering if anyone would know if you could just bury a relative out the back farm block without too much fuss or record keeping back in 1908 - sounds far fetched but might explain missing George.
Any help very very gratefully accepted and appreciated.
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Have you seen the probate for George CROOT, who died at Mangatoki, Taranaki on 15th September 1908?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89ZJ-D9NZ?i=108&cc=1865481
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Hi Johnf04 - yes, I have this document - confirms a few things but not much help of burial. Any suggestions.
Cheers
Glyn
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You know his wife is buried in Waihenga cemetery, Martinborough?
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www.swdc.govt.nz/cemeteries
Have you got in touch with the Martinborough Cemetery, you would have to email them and ask.
KT
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=595698.0
Is this the same family ?
KT
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You know his wife is buried in Waihenga cemetery, Martinborough?
Hi John - yes, I have all Sarah death and burial info - Waihenga Cemetery was closed for further burials years ago - I assumed that no further burials could take place and nothing showed up on searches. If this was a family plot, do you know if they could still bury family members after the cemetery was closed?
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www.swdc.govt.nz/cemeteries
Have you got in touch with the Martinborough Cemetery, you would have to email them and ask.
KT
Yes - a long time ago - getting back into it.
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The list of memorials at Waihenga shows burials in the 1920s, and later. Contact the district council, as Kiwiterrier suggested - the only online lists I've seen are lists of memorials, not burial lists. He may be buried with his wife, but not on the memorial.
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thankyou John and KT - I have emailed them as suggested - such an obvious oversight on my part. I fingers crossed and I'll let you know what happens - many many thanks.
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This from NZSG transcriptions (@ ancestry.com) for Waihenga Cemetery, Martinborough >
"Sarah CROOT w/o George, died 24 July 1903;
Also two sons - George William CROOT d. 6 May 1888 aged 10 years; and Percy Thomas CROOT, 7 days ; " (Note: No year given )
George CROOT (d.1908) - his name doesn't come up in a search of Cemetery transcriptions (or burial records).
~ Lu
Edit: Added: tomlingirl ... this was posted simultaneously with your last post. ;D
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Hi Lucy - NZSG Cemetery transcriptions - is this the transcription of the memorial?
If so, no he is not on it.
Does NZSG have access to burial records other than what is listed on the plaque out the front of the cemetery?
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Does NZSG have access to burial records other than what is listed on the plaque out the front of the cemetery?
Over the years the NZSG have visited cemeteries and transcribed the headstones, and along with other sources they have been given, have complied a CD of the Cemetery Location. Lu will have checked this, using soundex as well, in case the name has been spelt wrong, and sadly George is not on it.
Cheers
KHP
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Hi Kiwihalfpint - thankyou for the reply - you were very helpful in my last CROOT search. Do you have any suggestions as to what I need to do next.
My other question is - what was the procedure if a family wanted to bury a loved one on a home property. How would that have been recorded?
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Newspaper ads for a clearing sale from July 1908 suggest that Charles CROOT has sold his farm.
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Hi Tomlingirl,
To be honest I have no idea about the procedure to have someone buried on the home property.
I did wonder if George could be buried in a churchyard, but that still doesn't explain why there isn't a record of death.
Cheers
KHP
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I would guess there probably is a record of death, but the transcription is so odd, that it hasn't been found yet.
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True, guess George isn't ready to be found yet! :D
Cheers
KHP
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I have racked my brain trying to think of all the odd scenario's that might explain why I can't find him. I'm not ready to give up on himyet. I'll be in Wellington from the 6th May for about 2 weeks doing research and then travelling up the Hutt valley and searching any repository of information that I can find between Wellington and New Plymouth. I have found cousins in New Plymouth directly descended from George as well hoping they might have old family documents, stories, knowledge etc.
If anyone has any other suggestions, I would gratefully take them on.
Thanks for your efforts so far and fingers crossed - I will find George.
(http://)
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Hi Tomlingirl,
I would have thought the most likely place of burial would be in a cemetery close to the place of death or the nearest larger town.
Have you tried the local District Council or whoever manages southern Taranaki cemeteries?
Spades
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Does NZSG have access to burial records other than what is listed on the plaque out the front of the cemetery?
Over the years the NZSG have visited cemeteries and transcribed the headstones, and along with other sources they have been given, have complied a CD of the Cemetery Location. Lu will have checked this, using soundex as well, in case the name has been spelt wrong, and sadly George is not on it.
Cheers
KHP
Thanks KHP ... had been going to reply in similar fashion. ;)
AND yes, have employed "soundex" and some of my "other tools" in an effort to locate George ... all to no avail, sadly.
Tomlingirl ... agree, we must keep chipping away at this search in an effort to find George's resting place. ;)
~ Lu
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Hi Tomlingirl
... will get back to this thread later today hopefully with some further ideas on searching.
~ Lu
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Isn't the most likely place for him to be buried, with his wife? Have burial records, rather than memorial records, been checked for Waihenga cemetery?
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Tomlingirl ... is that your "tree" (TOMLIN / STOTT) at ancestry ?
Just wanted to check so I don't go over ground already covered. ;)
~ Lu
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Hi Lucy - yes Tomlin/Stott tree on Ancestry.com and thankyou - with many chipping away George must turn up eventually... bless you
Hi John - trying to find the burial records etc... is one of the things I plan to chip away when I get to Wellington etc... and searching microfilm to find a death record. I have to confess but, how many way can you misspell CROOT... CROOTE.... CROUT.... GROOT.... COOT..... GROUTE... think I've check most of these.
I have even contact NZ Railway Assoc. looking for old records on the transportation of a human body. No records survive but a lovely gentleman associated with the organisation was intrigued with the story and he is looking into other possible ways of discovering if George did travel by train.
I have email the shire looking after Waihenga Cemetery and they have passed my query onto there appropriate department - I will be following that up before I get to NZ.
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'The death of Mr T Croot of Stratford took place on Tuesday. For a number of years deceased was chairman of the Lowgarth Dairy Company. The interment takes place at Greytown."
PERSONAL, Taranaki Daily News, Volume LI, Issue 227, 18 September 1908
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/TDN19080918.2.25
M :)
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Articles about a W.H.P. Jones who was conveyed on the mail train from Petone for burial at Greytown
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/EP19080915.2.94.1
Page 8 Advertisements Column 1, Evening Post, Volume LXXVI, Issue 66, 15 September 1908
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/DOM19080917.2.25
PERSONAL ITEMS., Dominion, Volume 1, Issue 304, 17 September 1908
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BINGO!
Good find, Matthew. 8) ;D
Spades
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A photo of the Lowgarth Dairy Company.
https://collection.pukeariki.com/objects/172970
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Do you have this article? it refers to Mr Croot selling his farm.
Manawatu Standard, 20 June 1903, Page 8
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/MS19030620.2.54.3
Spades
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Find a grave has a memorial for Kate Elizabeth Croot COOK at Greytown - burial 1944. One of George's daughters?
Later - I checked George's probate - this is a daughter.
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Great find of burial place, Matthew - well done. ;)
Unfortunately Greytown Cemetery don't appear to have a burial record for Mr CROOT. :(
Kate Elizabeth COOK (d. 1944 - a daughter of George CROOT ) is buried at Greytown along with her husband Harry Carwell COOK (d. 1953) and their son Harry C. COOK junior (d. 1914), interred in Plots 64 to 66.
["Mrs. H. Cook, a daughter of Ward's Line" was mentioned in the newspaper article of 17 September 1908, noting George CROOT's death. ]
Tomlingirl ... I'm currently scouring the Greytown Cemetery records because as well as MI's (monumental inscriptions), they apparently contain some burial and sexton's records. I've just located some plots which could be of interest ... I need to follow these up further though.
~ Lu
Edit: Whoops, BINGO, John (re: Kate COOK) ... was just modifying my message and searching further - hadn't seen your earlier post. ;D
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Hi All - you guys are amazing, the information is flying in that fast I'm struggle to keep up with you.
Matthew - thank you so much - I have scoured Past Papers for anything to do with any CROOT and I hadn't seen this article. And I am guessing that this may very well be my George. Every thing else fits - dates, place, past chairman position.... Kate Elizabeth is his eldest daughter the only member of his family to be buried in Greytown and have plot 64-65-66 - quite possible George is there.
I have been communicating with Trish Drury, the Amenities Administrator for the South Wairarapa District Council and have just sent her this article and information. I'm sure she will follow it up.
Have any of you ever come across a burial with no records before - sound unbelievable that someone might be buried and then 'lost' without records.. but does it happen ??
Spades - yes I have that article.
Thanks again you wonderful people - I will let you all know if Trish turns anything up.
Thank you Lucy for your searching of records
Thanks John for your help and suggestions
Thanks Kiwihalfpint
As you can guess - I am a little excited - a bit premature I know - but still a little excited
Glynis
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Kate Elizabeth COOK (d. 1944 - a daughter of George CROOT ) is buried at Greytown Cemetery along with her husband Harry Carwell COOK (d. 1953) and their son Harry C. COOK junior (d. 1914), interred in Plots 64 to 66.
["Mrs. H. Cook, a daughter of Ward's Line" was mentioned in the newspaper article of 17 September 1908, noting George CROOT's death. ]
Hi tomlingirl
Further to above burials at Greytown Cemetery, the following adjoining plots > numbered
> 67 to 69 > belong to the same COOK family ... with interments for Archibald George COOK* d. 9 July 1974 aged 79 and Minnie Letitia COOK, d. 8 March 1983 aged 86.
[* Archibald George COOK (b. 1895) was the s/o Kate Elizabeth and Harry Carwell COOK. ]
Now, there would appear to be three separate plots > 67 - 68 - 69 > ... but burials recorded* only for two people (Archibald and Minnie) ???
Might George CROOT be buried here in the third plot ?
* Should point out that both sets of these COOK records have (M. I.) alongside, meaning that the information for them has been taken from monumental inscriptions.
So far I've found nothing in Greytown Cemetery records for George CROOT (or variants of that name).
Will check further though.
~ Lu
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Hi Lucy - the only other death relating to this group of family members is that apparently (unsubstantiated due to online records not being available to me) Archibald and Minnie had a stillborn birth in 1921. Don't know where that little one ended up if this birth is true.
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1921 stillbirth.........
1921/16445 Cook NR Minnie Letitia Archibald George S
Minniehaha.
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1921 stillbirth.........
1921/16445 Cook NR Minnie Letitia Archibald George S
Minniehaha.
Awesome, there it is, many thanks Minniehaha - wonder if bab was buried with grandparents ?? in the family plots at Greytown or somewhere else.
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Part quote from reply #32...
"Have any of you ever come across a burial with no records before - sound unbelievable that someone might be buried and then 'lost' without records.. but does it happen ??"
A little different but the only 'footprint' concerning the death of my great-grandmother is the insertion of her death notice in the local newspaper. This however only provides her date of death.
Place of burial unknown. Death not registered. However the death occurred 1858 so I imagine things like registration & burial records were only just getting under way in the young colony.
Minniehaha.
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Good evening
I too am looking for George and went to Martinborough today to find Sarahs grave.
A spoke to the guy at reception at the Martinborough Hotel and he gave me the contact telephone number for the local historian, a lovely old man known to all as 'Mate'.
He said he knew quite a bit about george and Sarah, and suggested I pick him up for a quick tour. I did that and he took me to the bakery/accommodation house that George established at 34 Jellicoe Street Martinborough, and then to the cemetery.
He told me that despite his name not being in the headstone, George, as well as his 10 year old son George, are buried with Sarah at Waihenga Cemetery. He told me that he had found through his research that George had died in the Taranaki area and his body was transported by train back to Wairarapa and was then buried at Waihenga.
The grave appeared in good clean condition, thanks to the hard work of some locals or possibly even family, but it was on a hell of.a lean. Id love to fix that up.
I am the great Grandson of George and Sarahs son, Walter McDonald Croot.