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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: Griffl on Saturday 21 April 18 17:59 BST (UK)
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Hello all.
What sort of social class would the clothing of these children suggest?
I had thought that this was my grt grt grandfather and date to the 1870s/80s. Although I’ve since come across evidence that goes against this. I’m trying to figure out if it could belong to a different branch of a family who had less money.
Would I be correct in suspecting that people would “smarten up” for a professional photograph, just as is done today?
PS. At the back of the boy on the left’s hair. Could that be a kippah?
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Not qualified to answer your queries, Griffi, except to say that yes, people would have worn their Sunday best for photographs, much more so than we do today. And, it's very hard to tell whether it's hair or a kippah - maybe , maybe not.
Anyway, moved up the board a bit your post might attract an expert.
Peter
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I don't know anything about clothing fashions, Griffi but to me, the boy's clothes look to be of good quality and have a number of 'fashion features' (pleats, decorative trouser buttons, belt with double button). I have no idea how common these were.
I read on the internet that one of the occasions on which this type of photo may have taken was 'breeching': when a small boy was first dressed in breeches or trousers. The age at which this occurred seemed to be between 4 and 8. Poorer families tended towards a younger age (when a boy would start work) while wealthier families tended towards a later age. I seems that the 'right age' was a subject of wide debate.
A photo would sometimes include one the boy's elder siblings. It's just possible that the boy on the right had the photo taken for his 'breeching' together with his brother on the left.
I'd be interested to read comments by people who know more about this kind of thing than I do :)
Mike
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I'm leaning towards the 1915-1920 era but the fact that it's a cabinet card has thrown me a bit although I know they were still in use I believe up to 1920.
Jim will have a better idea. It would be useful to see the back for clues.
I also think that the seated boy has a quiff at the front giving the appearance of a line that could be mistaken for Kippah.
Carol
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These are definitely middle class at least. They already have the air of confidence.
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I would agree with you there Regorian....they aren't Ag Lab kids ;D
Carol
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Not in this case Carol, but there were people who were natures gentlemen or ladies rather than societies.
My grandfather had eight brothers and one sister surviving to adulthood. Of those nine lines only 2 are now middle class and visibly so. The sister had very refined features.
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Thank you all for the replies so far.
1915-1920 would be a shock, that’s quite late. I would hope that if it is actually that period then family could recognise the sitters.
Interesting re the “breeching” ceremony. Never heard of this, better get googling!
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Google Images, Knickerbocker Suits and see what you think.
Carol
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I'd never heard of 'breeching' either, Griffl, and the occasion for this photo could well be a quite different one. I enjoy restoring old photos but to be honest, I know so little about about them that it was a 'learning moment' for me to read that they would often be taken to mark 'special occasions'. Duh! Much like we do now (with professional photographers) at births, christenings, marriages, wedding anniversaries etc. But I was surprised to read that 'breeching' once used to be one of these recognised 'life events'.
The time period in which 'breeching photos' used to be common - together with the period in which the photography studio was active may give you some clue as to the date.
I was born and brought up in Swansea, though I moved away at 18 and via Norwich and London I've lived in The Netherlands for 40 years now. But I most of my family still liver in Swansea and I regularly visit them. In my teens, Cardiff was the place to be for Welsh Rugby matches. These days, it's a great city to visit. Many of my ancestors are from Swansea and Cardiff. So I was triggered by the 'Cardiff' link!
Mike
Thank you all for the replies so far.
1915-1920 would be a shock, that’s quite late. I would hope that if it is actually that period then family could recognise the sitters.
Interesting re the “breeching” ceremony. Never heard of this, better get googling!
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It would be useful to see the back. The cardstock is typical 1880's/90's although I would lean towards the 90's just going on the gold lettering.
They have the appearance of being from a middle class family. Working class families generally couldn't afford clothes like these.
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Great stuff Jim...I was hoping that you would offer a date...I'm not good at male fashion so it's good to have your expert opinion...I based my guess on the low slung belt but wasn't happy with the card stock which looked more like 1890s rather than for the date I offered...Learning curve I guess ::) ;D ;D ;D
Carol
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Looking at Welshnewspapers online, I can see an Alexander Lawrence, photographic artist, at 80, Queen Street between 1893 and 1895. Alexander died 31st Dec 1894 and his death notice was in the Western Mail, 3 Jan 1895.
J. Lawrence (the name on the photo card) , photographic artist, 80 Queen Street, is mentioned in the Evening Express, 20 August 1895. I cannot find reference to a photographic establishment at that address after this.
There are references to its being a licensed premises/eating house after this date and in the 1901 Census it is described as a restaurant.
I can find Alexander in the '91 Census but puzzled who "J Alexander" might be.
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What are there names and did they come from another country ?
if their parents were in the clothing profession like my great grandfathers family they might have had better quality clothes than their peers for a photo opportunity
If they came from abroad fashion conventions may have been slightly different .
my ggfather was born in Russian Latvia in 1870
I wonder if he or his younger brother b1884 would have worn clothes like this
Thanks for posting
The family came to UK in 1890 he died in Wales rest of family went to USA
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Another thought would it be the type of photo you could have taken of family members before they emigrated .
to keep as souvenirs ...how old does everyone think these 2 are ?
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The older child is seven and the younger five years in my opinion.
Sue
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I would have put them a bit older around 7 & 10 years old.
Carol
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I don't wish to subscribe to Pinterest so I can't see the pictures completely but there are boy's outfits from 1915 with belted, pleated jackets about halfway down the page.
https://www.pinterest.com/adlerbecca/1860s-to-1900s-boys-clothes/
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Historical Directories (online)
"Kelly's 1895 Directory of Monmouthshire and South Wales" has Alexander Lawrence at 80 Queen Street. No entry in that Directory for a J. Lawrence, photographer.
The "Cardiff Directory 1901" has an entry for a J Lawrence, photographic artist, 3 St. John's sq.
I don't think J. Lawrence was at the 80, Queen Street studio for long. The only mention to date is August 1895 (newspapers).
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Looking at newspaper references, Alexander Lawrence (photographer at 80 Queen Street) died on 31 December 1894.
As mentioned by Hanes Teulu, J Lawrence is reported as a photographer at that address in various papers in August 1895. "A very perfect photograph of the principal officers who were present in the service on Friday connected with the hanging of the old Crimean colours has been taken by Mr J. Lawrence, of 80, Queen-street, Cardiff"
John Lawrence had moved to St John's Square by August 1899 "At a convenient moment the whole party were photographed under the Castle walls by Mr John Lawrence, of St. John's-square, Cardiff"
So this photo dates from that 1895-1899 period.
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I had checked post 1901 Directories eg. "Wales Trade Directories 1912" in case J. Lawrence had returned to 80 Queen St - nothing found.
ShaunJ's "August 1899" newspaper find is a good one. I think 1895-1899 is the period in question.
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I think we can narrow the window even further. J Lawrence is at 3 St John's Square in the 1899 Cardiff Directory which would have been prepared in 1898.
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"LADY'S Bangle Found in Queen-street.—Apply J. Lawrence, Photographer, 3, St. John's- square, Cardiff." (Evening Express 27th January 1898)
This narrows the window for J Lawrence at 80 Queen Street to the period 1895-1897.
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I would put the date at around 1880 -90 and the children are middle to lower middle class. They would definitely have dressed up for a studio photo.
Regards
AJ
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Plus Fours and lower middle class boys, I don't think so. More like upper middle class or above. Also I suggest you google Cathedral Road, Cardiff, they could well have lived there.
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I have a photo of my grandad that dates from around 1907/8 and he's wearing an almost identical outfit to the older boy. I can't tell the quality of the fabric or workmanship but the family was definitely working class, great grandad was a driller in the shipyards.
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i think the age gap between the boys could be bigger
Maybe 6 and 10 years
do you have likely candidsates for the ages and dates being suggested .?
if they are jewish and one is wearing a kippur ..is there an age to start wearing them ?
I never knew we had jewish relatives so am learning
the cloth looks very thick ...
I too think lower middle class but dressed up .
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Lots of interest in this post but I think the OP has lost interest :-\
Sometimes the card stock can be more accurate than dating from clothing which can be misleading due to home made or altered clothing from hand-me-downs. Jim's estimate of 1890s based on the cabinet card design gets my vote.
Carol
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I'm a little surprised that people are still suggesting date ranges for this photo. It's been established from evidence of directories and newspaper reports that the studio was only in operation under the name of J Lawrence at 80 Queen Street between 1895 and 1897.
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Ditto!
Carol
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What do you think Griffl ?...when you come online...as you are now..it's only polite to respond to the many people who have contributed to this post on your behalf.
Carol
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Hi again all, sorry for leaving you all in the dark for the past day or so. I've been having trouble using the website on my phone. It has been letting me read posts but giving me an error message when I try and reply. I understand your concern treetotal.
Thanks for your help Mark, you've taught me something new; "breeching". Taught by a fellow welshman at that too :P "Plus fours" is a new term for me, thanks Regorian.
Thanks to all who helped in the detective work for finding the dates of output for the photographer. Superb work, I've lost my knack. I wasn't aware of all the different options for researching photographers. Will come in use for when I research other family photographs.
That's certainly narrowed down the options of who these two young chaps may be. The best fit for your guesses of age in my tree would perhaps be Edmund Gill and Gordon Gill, born 1884 and 1888. They were the sons of Captain Joseph Gill, and so not Levi, and certainly wouldn't be a Kippah. We believe they lived at Polkyth House, St Austell and also Cardiff. How do we feel this fits?
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That would make them aged 11 & 7 in 1895 so that's sounds about right.
Carol
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Could be wrong but I'm sure I read somewhere that photographic studios would sometimes hire out clothing just for the photo.
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Oh dear, my post wasn't very clear. I wasn't suggesting 1906/7 as a date for the OP's picture. My aim was to point out that a working class boy was wearing similar clothing in 1906/7. I'll get my coat.
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Griff ..do I have your permission to use this pic in my time travel detecti e workshop. ..im hoping to get people to guess who is related by looking at photos and don't have any pics of great grandparents brothers sisters or children .We will probably do a session about dating by clothes too.
Thanks in advance .B
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Of course, go for it. Best of luck :)
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Thanks I will see if technology will let me print it .its vintage fair on Saturday ..I. ll be dressing as my great grandmother aged 6o ish in 1938 and I. Have a friend who is always dressed in Edwardian clothes he.said happy to be a fashion accessory as long as he doesn't have to talk ..it wold be great if some children dressedo up too .