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Census Lookups General Lookups => Census and Resource Discussion => Library and FHS Lookups => Topic started by: Black Adder on Sunday 22 April 18 16:32 BST (UK)
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I have tried in vain to find out what happened to my grandfather who died sometime before 1935. Here is the story. Rather long but necessarily detailed. Apologies in advance.
I was born and raised in Hastings as were my parents. I have been researching my family tree for some time but recently made some new and intriguing discoveries.
My mother was born Gwendoline Mabel JONES in 1912. Her parents were Arthur Lloyd JONES and Isabella Mabel JONES (nee RAYMOND). Arthur was born in Rhyl in North Wales in 1876 and Mabel was born in London in 1886. I do know that both of them were on the stage. Not only is this shown as their profession on my mother's birth certificate but I also have some family photographs of them in their stage personae.
Arthur's stage name was Harry MAY and Mabel's was Isa MAY. They went variously under the names of "The Two Mays" or "Isa and Harry". Isabel also went under a separate stage name of Isa BERNARD and sometimes Betty BERNARD. Arthur was sometimes Harry MAY and also Eddie MAY. All these names appear on photos that they have signed for well-wishers. Until very recently that was the sum total of my knowledge about my maternal grandparents. My mother died in 1997 and my father in 2007. (Why don't we ask them more while we still can?)
Very recently I decided to do some investigation on the archives of "The Stage" newspaper and was thrilled to be able to uncover about 150 separate references to their appearances in Music Halls up and down the country from 1903 to 1925. They styled themselves as a Comedy Duo. One of Isa's photos says "Comedienne". In adverts from "The Stage" she was also termed a Soubrette. The various appearances were in well known theatres all over England, Wales and Ireland. I have no records of them appearing in Scotland. Strangely in one cutting they appeared as Arthur Lloyd and Maida Raymond (using his christian names and her maiden surname).
Harry and Isa were married in Camberwell, London in 1908 but were appearing together as early as 1904. Before 1904 Harry seems to have started his acting career in North Wales where he was born. I am not sure what took them to Hastings but there is a reference to them both appearing there in 1905. Hastings was, of course, one of the birthplaces of the seaside musical and variety show which may account for their presence.
I also recall my mother saying that they were also Pierrots and one photograph shows a Pierrot Troupe. The Stage newspaper contains references to "The White Coons" (1908) and to "Uncle Tom's Eastbourne Minstrels" (1913).
So far so good! However, the plot thickens. My mother later had a step-father called Thomas Edwards. He was born in London and emigrated to Canada in 1914. He enlisted in the Canadian Expeditionary Force and sailed back to Britain - en route for the Somme - in 1915. At one stage he was evacuated to the UK and spent time in hospital in Seaford but returned to the Front in September 1918. Shortly thereafter he was awarded the Military Medal for bravery in the field. Thanks to friends and descendants of his Canadian Battalion I have a cutting detailing his award. He was finally discharged in April 1919.
I never knew how my mother came to have a step-father. Then, by chance, I found reference to the birth of Thomas Edwards' son James in March 1919. Obtaining a copy of the birth certificate I was very surprised to find out that his mother was "Isabel Edwards formerly Raymond". The birth of his son to Isabel was registered in Hastings in May 1919 which will have been just after his discharge.
So why did Isa and Harry split up? The records from The Stage show them performing together right up to 1925. More mysteriously, did Isabel and Thomas actually marry? The reason I ask this is that, after further research, I uncovered Isabel's death certificate. This shows she died in Hastings in 1935 aged 47 and shown on it as:
"Isabel Mabel Jones, commonly known as Edwards. Widow of Harry Jones an Actor (Stage)." I am still trying to find a record of Arthur (Harry's) death.
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Hi
Can we just plant your mother's birth reg?
1913 QMar Hatings 2b 28 Gwendoline M Jones (mmn Raymond)
1908 QJun Camberwell 1d 1553 Arthur Lloyd Jones / Mable Isabella Raymond
And this is yours? . . . . .
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/3113693/person/-1773875674/facts?_phsrc=jPs8&_phstart=successSource
Ray
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Ray
Correct. Mother's DOB 28 Nov 1912. Grandfather's marriage as stated. Confirm my tree.
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What an interesting story.
The most likely death, name and age wise, is the one on your tree - Bangor 1926.
Have you investigated that one?
"Commonly known as Edwards" implies she wasn't actually married to Mr Edwards but was using his name.
And she was definitely performing with her husband up to 1925? So on the face of it he should have died between 1925-1935.
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Have you the birth for the other Edwards/Raymond child?
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Thank you Millipede.
Thanks for pointing out the Bangor entry. I obtained the death certificate for this and it was not the same Jones. I should have amended my tree (which I have now done).
Yes; Edwards/Raymond co-habited from about 1918 to her death and no record of any marriage. My mother Gwendoline - Mabel Isabella's daughter - signed a photo in 1932 calling herself Gwendoline May (her mother's stage name).
James, Eleanor and Betty were the other Edwards/Raymond children.
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I can't see the birth for Betty but Eleanor is down as the wife of James Sydney Edwards so a little confusing!
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Sorry again. It's late at night! Eleanour was James' wife. Betty was born in 1920. See photo.
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As mentioned to you elsewhere .................. have you thought that the information given on Isabel's death certificate was not accurate?
Much information is only what the informant knows, ie hearsay, and can be untrue (my own grandfather is an example of this!!!)
Arthur might not have been dead in 1935, but Isabel might have told people that.
Extend your search past 1935, just in case.
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Thank you Sylvia. Good idea.
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known as was also used for inforamal adoptees
theres a proffession board with actors when you have got more information on this forum i suggest transfering post there..anyone researching actors may know them
i remember seeing abpout Pierrots in Wales
very interesting post and great photos
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Thank you, Brigidmac.
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I posted this two years ago. I had some helpful comments but am still no further through the brick wall. I thought I would repeat the post to see if anyone else has any ideas all of which would be gratefully received.
I have tried in vain to find out what happened to my grandfather who died sometime before 1935. Here is the story. Rather long but necessarily detailed. Apologies in advance.
I was born and raised in Hastings as were my parents. I have been researching my family tree for some time but recently made some new and intriguing discoveries.
My mother was born Gwendoline Mabel JONES in 1912. Her parents were Arthur Lloyd JONES and Isabella Mabel JONES (nee RAYMOND). Arthur was born in Rhyl in North Wales in 1876 and Mabel was born in London in 1886. I do know that both of them were on the stage. Not only is this shown as their profession on my mother's birth certificate but I also have some family photographs of them in their stage personae.
Arthur's stage name was Harry MAY and Mabel's was Isa MAY. They went variously under the names of "The Two Mays" or "Isa and Harry". Isabel also went under a separate stage name of Isa BERNARD and sometimes Betty BERNARD. Arthur was sometimes Harry MAY and also Eddie MAY. All these names appear on photos that they have signed for well-wishers. Until very recently that was the sum total of my knowledge about my maternal grandparents. My mother died in 1997 and my father in 2007. (Why don't we ask them more while we still can?)
Very recently I decided to do some investigation on the archives of "The Stage" newspaper and was thrilled to be able to uncover about 150 separate references to their appearances in Music Halls up and down the country from 1903 to 1925. They styled themselves as a Comedy Duo. One of Isa's photos says "Comedienne". In adverts from "The Stage" she was also termed a Soubrette. The various appearances were in well known theatres all over England, Wales and Ireland. I have no records of them appearing in Scotland. Strangely in one cutting they appeared as Arthur Lloyd and Maida Raymond (using his christian names and her maiden surname).
Harry and Isa were married in Camberwell, London in 1908 but were appearing together as early as 1904. Before 1904 Harry seems to have started his acting career in North Wales where he was born. I am not sure what took them to Hastings but there is a reference to them both appearing there in 1905. Hastings was, of course, one of the birthplaces of the seaside musical and variety show which may account for their presence.
I also recall my mother saying that they were also Pierrots and one photograph shows a Pierrot Troupe. The Stage newspaper contains references to "The White Coons" (1908) and to "Uncle Tom's Eastbourne Minstrels" (1913).
So far so good! However, the plot thickens. My mother later had a step-father called Thomas Edwards. He was born in London and emigrated to Canada in 1914. He enlisted in the Canadian Expeditionary Force and sailed back to Britain - en route for the Somme - in 1915. At one stage he was evacuated to the UK and spent time in hospital in Seaford but returned to the Front in September 1918. Shortly thereafter he was awarded the Military Medal for bravery in the field. Thanks to friends and descendants of his Canadian Battalion I have a cutting detailing his award. He was finally discharged in April 1919.
I never knew how my mother came to have a step-father. Then, by chance, I found reference to the birth of Thomas Edwards' son James in March 1919. Obtaining a copy of the birth certificate I was very surprised to find out that his mother was "Isabel Edwards formerly Raymond". The birth of his son to Isabel was registered in Hastings in May 1919 which will have been just after his discharge.
So why did Isa and Harry split up? The records from The Stage show them performing together right up to 1925. More mysteriously, did Isabel and Thomas actually marry? The reason I ask this is that, after further research, I uncovered Isabel's death certificate. This shows she died in Hastings in 1935 aged 47 and shown on it as:
"Isabel Mabel Jones, commonly known as Edwards. Widow of Harry Jones an Actor (Stage)." I am still trying to find a record of Arthur (Harry's) death.
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Any one following my post about my search for my Grandfather who disappeared in the 1920s, might be interested to know that I seem to have unlocked the mystery. I have found a burial record and gravestone photo from Chester that lists him under one of his stage names of Harry but says, alongside, aka Arthur Lloyd. Those with whom he is buried are definite family ancestors.
I am attaching a copy of the Find a Grave record courtesy of that website.
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That's great news
Thanks for updating .
JONES & LLOYDs are hard enough to find when they don't remarry or have aliases
Did you ever find your grandmother Isabella s marriage to Thomas Edwards father .?
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That's great news
Thanks for updating .
JONES are hard enough to find when they don't remarry or have alias Did you ever find your grandmother Isabella s marriage to Thomas Edwards father .?
Thank you brigidmac. Section of grandmother's death certificate attached. No record of any marriage to Thomas Edwards
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Great to have the update - thanks for taking the time to post it.
So you were convinced that Harry and Isa were performing together 'up to 1925' which cannot be correct if you've found Harry's death in 1922.
Have you managed to resolve this anomaly?
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Great to have the update - thanks for taking the time to post it.
So you were convinced that Harry and Isa were performing together 'up to 1925' which cannot be correct if you've found Harry's death in 1922.
Have you managed to resolve this anomaly?
Thanks for your interest. Yes; I agree that my previous assumptions may be wrong. I took them from numerous advertisements in The Stage paper. In fact, after 1921, there is reference to Isa Bernard (sometimes Betty Bernard) and "Eddie May". There is also a cutting about her and "Eddie Cameron". From 1922 onwards she only seems to feature as described without Harry. I erroneously assumed that Eddie May was another stage pseudonym he adopted. Maybe not. I also heard from the Cheshire Archivist today and his address at death was apparently 144a Brownlow Hill, Liverpool. On checking, this was the address of the large Liverpool Workhouse/Infirmary. Was he an out of work actor by then? An advert from 1921 sees him selling stage props in Bournemouth. "Forced by illness". Cheshire gave me the reference of his death certificate and I have this on order.
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There is a further fascinating reference. In the 1940 marriage certificate of his daughter Betty (born 1918) her father is listed as Arthur Lloyd Jones (deceased) and his occupation as "Munitions Worker".
Solve that, sleuths!
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There is a further fascinating reference. In the 1940 marriage certificate of his daughter Betty (born 1918) her father is listed as Arthur Lloyd Jones (deceased) and his occupation as "Munitions Worker".
Solve that, sleuths!
My suggestion:
Isa and Thomas Edwards were apparently 'together' from at least midsummer 1918, given the birth of their son James in March 1919 (do you know his precise birthdate, as this would give you an even closer relationship start date)
If Thomas Edwards was in hospital in Seaford, was that when the relationship started?
Possibly Harry gave up the stage earlier - ill health? - and they had split up and he earned a living during WWI in a munitions factory?
As to why Isa and Thomas Edwards didn't marry, he wasn't still married to someone else, was he?
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Thanks Igorstrav. In fact daughter Betty was born before James. Her birth was Jan 1918 so I guess Isabel and Thomas met quite some time before. Thomas was originally from South Woodford in London. He emigrated to Canada in 1912 and enlisted in the 21st Bn Canadian Expeditionary Force. He served on the Somme and won the Military Medal. At some stage he was invalided back to the UK and was probably nursed in the Canadian hospital in Hastings. I can surmise that stage entertainer Isa might have been giving a show to the troops and they met that way.
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Thanks Igorstrav. In fact daughter Betty was born before James. Her birth was Jan 1918 so I guess Isabel and Thomas met quite some time before. Thomas was originally from South Woodford in London. He emigrated to Canada in 1912 and enlisted in the 21st Bn Canadian Expeditionary Force. He served on the Somme and won the Military Medal. At some stage he was invalided back to the UK and was probably nursed in the Canadian hospital in Hastings. I can surmise that stage entertainer Isa might have been giving a show to the troops and they met that way.
You mentioned that Betty had said on her marriage certificate in 1940 that her father was Arthur (Harry) a munitions worker - but was she really the daughter of Thomas Edwards?
Whatever the case, Isa and Thomas must have met (as I previously calculated) by midsummer 1918 when Betty was about six months old?
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Sorry. My mistake. Betty was definitely the daughter of Arthur Lloyd Jones by Mabel Isabella. James (my Uncle Jimmy) was the son of Thomas (whom I called Uncle Tom).
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Well, no matter now - sorry for the 'counting months' strategy as we cannot understand what happened more than 100 years ago between Isa and Harry and Thomas.
It is a strategy I pursue, because of course it does give just a small clue into previous lives.....
My own great grandmother was born in March 1865, after my greatx2 grandmother had married in October 1864, aged 18.
My greatx2 grandfather was (so far as I can judge) a 'bit of a lad' and was in the Navy at the time of the marriage.
I don't know what happened precisely (of course) but a man in the local village was widowed in the summer of 1865, and left with a small daughter, and by the end of that year my Greatx2 grandmother must have started a relationship with him, because their first (of 12) child was born in August 1866.
They never married, because of course my Greatx2 grandmother was already married.
However, my Greatx2 grandfather had no such scruples, moved across the county and married bigamously himself in 1874 after having had three children with his partner.
There were a lot of certificates bought in the search for that little story. ;)
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Fascinating. I always greatly regret not asking my mother all about her parents before she died in 1997.