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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Down => Topic started by: loobylooayr on Thursday 26 April 18 14:32 BST (UK)
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Hi,
First time posting on Ireland boards :)
I am looking for any information (or any hints on where to find info) on James Kennedy McConnell, son of John McConnell, & Anne Murray who marry in Comber 1st Feb 1860, please.
I believe this entry on Ros Davies, County Down, Northern Ireland FH Research site relates to the same couple
Bangor & Newtownards
James
McConnell
of Granshaw; husband of Annie Murray; father of Mary Ann b. 25/ 30 & bpt. 2 Jul Apr 1868 at 1st Newtownards Presbyterian Church & Alexander b. 16 Jul 1870
My great grandfather was Alexander McConnell and his father James McConnell would be my 2xgreat grandfather. I know the family (or part of the family) moved to Scotland and have all records from there.
I'm just trying to establish roots in Comber ;)
Thanks for reading
Looby :)
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This is the birth record of Alexander McCONNELL in 1870 LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1870/03339/2224084.pdf) #380 second row
Mary Ann McCONNELL in 1868 LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1868/03446/2265258.pdf) #418 fifth row
There is a CoI baptism in Drumhirk, Comber on Nov 10 1861 for a John McCONNELL
Father James McCONNELL and mother Annie (MN not given)
with a note that the child was born in July 1861
This was before civil records
Within your post you refer to
"James Kennedy McConnell, son of John McConnell, & Anne Murray who marry in Comber 1st Feb 1860"
and
"James McConnell of Granshaw; husband of Annie Murray; father of Mary Ann b. 25/ 30 & bpt. 2 Jul Apr 1868 at 1st Newtownards Presbyterian Church & Alexander b. 16 Jul 1870"
Do you think these are two different couples or is there a typo?
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James McCONNELL and Annie MURRAY also had at least two other daughters
Elizabeth LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1866/03522/2296023.pdf) in 1866 #62 third row
Ellen LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1865/03589/2323335.pdf) in 1866 #79 third row
Isabella
LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/cert_amends/cert_1872/2183190a.pdf) in 1872 #178
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Just bear in mind that there is two Granshaw's One on the outskirts of Comber, and another one in the Bangor/Newtownards area.
so the entry from"myluck" may be correct, they may be two different couples ?
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Within your post you refer to
"James Kennedy McConnell, son of John McConnell, & Anne Murray who marry in Comber 1st Feb 1860"
and
"James McConnell of Granshaw; husband of Annie Murray; father of Mary Ann b. 25/ 30 & bpt. 2 Jul Apr 1868 at 1st Newtownards Presbyterian Church & Alexander b. 16 Jul 1870"
Do you think these are two different couples or is there a typo?
Hello ,
and thank you myluck for your replies and info.
Thanks too to sam barry for your help.
I perhaps phrased my request clumsily -
I have found a mention on Ros Davies site of a marriage on 1st Feb 1860 at Comber of a James Kennedy McConnell (son of John McConnell) to an Anne Murray .
Then I noticed the reference to
"James McConnell of Granshaw; husband of Annie Murray; father of Mary Ann b. 25/ 30 & bpt. 2 Jul Apr 1868 at 1st Newtownards Presbyterian Church & Alexander b. 16 Jul 1870"
I wondered if these were the same couple? And I wasn't sure where Granshaw was?
My great grandfather Alexander McConnell died in Ayrshire, Scotland 10 July 1956......he is recorded as being 85 years old and his parents were James McConnell and Annie McConnell m.s. Murray.
Looby :)
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The 1870 birth record I gave a link to for Alexander McCONNELL states he was born in Granshaw in the Bangor District.
This is not a district I am familiar with and you would need someone with more local knowledge to clarify its position to Comber etc. Looking at a map it seems not far west of the town.
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Thank you for that birth link and for the others relating to all the girls, myluck. I feel sure this is my great grandfather who did (according to relatives) have a lot of sisters and only one brother .
Perhaps the location of Comber is not the right one....I assumed from the marriage that these were the same people referred to with the births at Granshaw....although they still could be - the family could have moved location after the marriage.
Looby :)
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This shows all the Granshas in Ireland. There is one in Comber Civil Parish-
https://www.townlands.ie/down/castlereagh-lower/comber-castlereagh-lower-portion/gransha/
This one is just outside Bangor-
https://www.townlands.ie/down/ards-lower/bangor/gransha/
Remember that marriages usually take place in the bride's church and that after the wedding the couple usually attended the husband's church.
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Thank you aghadowey.
So the marriage would take place in a church? In fact, two churches if they went to groom's church too. (I'm too used to Scottish marriages taking place at home or on farms)
So could you tell me please is Granshaw /Gransha a village or and area of a town?
Please excuse my ignorance, but I'm not sure what the term "townland" actually means.* must Google it.
Looby :)
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No, marriage usually took place in ONE church or a registry office. Say bride's family attended church A and the marriage took place there. After the wedding the couple would attended church B where the groom belonged. There are exceptions to this and of course sometimes the couple belonged to the same church before their marriage.
A townland is the smallest administrative unit of land in Ireland. In rural areas it served as the address until fairly recent times (we got road names in the 1970s).
See reply #9 on this topic in IRELAND RESOURCES-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=513860.9
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Thanks for that Aghadowey,
I'll have a read at the link you have provided.
Looby :)
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Re : Ros Davies' Co. Down, Northern Ireland Family History Research Site
© Rosalind Davies 2001
Surnames of Co. Down: McConnell
John McCONNELL
Holywood & Newtownards of Holywood then Drumhirk & Ballyhinney;
Married Mary Ann Kennedy 14 Sep 1833 at 1st Newtownards Presbyterian Church, witnesses were John McCune & Thomas Chambers ;
Father of Agnes b. 5 Jan & bpt. 13 Jan 1835
James b. 27 Dec 1836 & bpt. 15 Jan 1837
Hugh b. 7 Feb & bpt. 20 Feb 1843
Elizabeth b. 29 Jul & bpt. 2 Nov 1849
Alexander b. 16 Aug & bpt. 3 Feb 1856 (sic!)
Thomas b. 18 Nov & bpt. 6 Dec 1857 at 1st Newtownards Presbyterian Church
John McConnell is my 3xgreat grandfather.
James, his son (above) is James Kennedy McConnell, my 2xgreat grandfather, and father of my ancestor Hugh (b.c.1862 ireland) and his brother Alexander (b. 16th July 1870 Ireland).
James, wife Anne(ie) Murray, and their 6 children (Hugh; Ellen; Elizabeth; Mary Anne; Alexander, Isabella) emigrated to Scotland between 1872-4, where 2 further children (Margaret; Annie) were born.
Many of the above names are repeated over 3 generations to my knowledge.
Below is a possible death entry of John McConnell. Mary Anne Kennedy's death date is not known, but it was in Scotland, before 1893
FindMyPast Ireland 28/06/1013 (free search day)
1 likely 'Newtownards' entry only
Name John M'Connell
Year Of Death 1876
Aged 62
Birth 1814
Registration District Newtownards Ireland
Volume 11 Page 548
Category Life Events (Birth, Marriage, Death)
Record set: Irish Deaths 1864 - 1958
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Hi Forestfan and welcome to Rootschat,
So, we must be distantly related ;D -
your great-grandfather being Hugh McConnell b. 1862 in Ireland
my great-grandfather being Hugh's brother Alexander born 1870 in Ireland.
Some of the family names have been repeated down the branches of my family tree too!
I have a feeling John McConnell and Mary Ann Kennedy will be as far back as we can trace in Ireland. My grandfather always insisted that his father said the family had originally been Scottish and had gone to Ireland (possibly Ulster Plantation :-\ ) for work then returned a few generations later. Doubt I'll ever be able to prove that.
Thank you for the note of what you believe to be John McConnell's death.
Looby :)
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Hi Looby,
Indeed we are related, we both derive from James K & John before him - traces of Irish blood within us both! And maybe more Scottish blood before that too - IF your 'story' could be prooved! But to find Irish records in the early C17th - not a chance!!
My Scottish McConnells either departed for England / America / Australia - or simply died without issue. The Scottish line thus ended.
I am intending to look into what might be found re. McConnell and Murray lines pre-1872 Ireland, and may well throw some serious dosh at it. We'll see - cross fingers!!
Forestfan
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Hi again Forestfan,
My McConnell line down through Alexander has dwindled too ( to my knowledge). There may be some McConnells in Canada descended from him but the Scottish McConnells have either had no issue or been female, therefore marrying and their children having their spouses surnames.
My own name was McConnell and although I've been married several years , I'm still known by that name among local folk.
Best wishes with research in Ireland . I would be interested if you turn anything up.
I've always wanted to find the headstone for James McConnell or 2×great grandfather in Patna. I've spent hours trailling the Cemetery but found nothing :'( so wonder if perhaps the family couldn't afford one.
Looby :)
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Hi Looby,
It's my understanding that Scottish females generally retain their birth/maiden names thoughout life. The importance of this is reflected in the information that Scottish BMD certificates have always required. And how sensible a system this is - oh that it were forever so in England!
I had forgotten that my Hugh registered the death of his father James K - you'll have the certificate no doubt - I've just dug it out again.
His death was the subject of a precognition (from research I had done years ago). This is the reference, though there was nothing further to add.
"Register of corrected entries, vol. 1 p. 6 23 Mar 1893
Result of a precognition touching the death of James McConnell: contains no fresh information."
Death of James McCONNEL
Aged 55 born c 1838
Died 13 Feb 1893 at Dalmellington, Ayr, Scotland
Occupation Brusher at Jelliston Colliery
Owner Dalmellington Iron Co
Note Fall of roof on road while brushing it.
"Source Citation:
Collection: Coalmining Accidents and Deaths; Archive: The Coalmining History Resource Centre
Ancestry.com. Web: UK, Coal Mining Accidents and Deaths Index, 1878-1935 [database on-line].
Original data: Coalmining Accidents and Deaths. The Coalmining History Resource Centre. http://www.cmhrc.co.uk/site/disasters/index.html: accessed 20 February 2014.
Description
All data in this third-party database was obtained from the source’s website. Ancestry.com does not support or make corrections or changes to the original database. To learn more about these records, please refer to the source’s website."
So . . . now I/you know how he died (if you didn't already!)
Happy searching,
Forestfan
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Hi Looby,
You may be correct that the family might have been too poor to afford a headstone, but do you know for certain that JKM was buried in Patna Cemetary rather than a church graveyard?
The local authority who are responsible for cemetaries usually have records of plot numbers even if there was no headstone.
Records of Monumental Inscriptions can sometimes be found in local libraries or record offices or may be held by local history societies.
It also begs the question of where Annie Murray/McConnell was buried - or maybe cremated - but most were buried at that time?
On the subject of Annie - do you have any idea of where Annie was in 1901?? I have searched the whole of Scotland and cannot find her on the census of that year. Although she's clearly alone at Torr Cottage, Kirkmichael in 1911 - 2yrs before her death at the same place. A mystery!!
Btw - the McConnell line continues here, both myself and my son have the middle name James!
All the best,
Forestfan
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Hi again Forestfan,
I did know James McConnell had died as the result of a mining accident - think that's why I was keen to find his grave . Patna has two cemeteries - Old & New - I couldn't find James in either. Not to say he's not buried there - I might have missed him or the headstone could be unreadable. I don't think there are any burials at the local church.
Haven't found Annie's burial either, and yes, she would be buried, there was no crematorium in Ayrshire at that time. Also got no clue where she was in 1901.
Her youngest daughter Annie married in Kilmarnock in 1907 to a David Kirkland. Other family members were in Kilmarnock at the time of Annie Murray/McConnell's death too. Perhaps she was buried in Kilmarnock. More likely she is in Kirkmichael in an unmarked grave :'(
Looby :)
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Hi Looby,
You may be interested to know that James KM may have been involved in another mining accident before the one that caused his death in 1893. At least, on 24th Oct 1890 there was an incident involving a James McConnell, (how many were there I wonder with the same occupation - a brusher), at the same Jelli(e)ston mine at Dalmellington Ayr. Apparently a shot went off before he had time to escape. Indeed a dangerous business in which to be involved - finally costing him his life 3yrs later!
It is curious that on the JKM/AM marriage cert of 1860 that Annie states her father to be Hugh Murray, labourer, yet at Annie's death son Alexander states that it is David Murray, distiller. Surely Annie knew her own father's name in 1860! Furthermore, Alexander didn't even appear to know his own grandmother's name either - Ann Fleming. Annie's evidence must be taken as the truth though, as Hugh was also her brother's name, which she then used for her own son, who in turn used it for his son too.
Incidentally, this may be new to to you - your Alexander was a witness to the marriage of his brother Hugh to Mary Robson in 1892.
Happy hunting,
Forestfan
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Hi Looby,
You may be interested to know that James KM may have been involved in another mining accident before the one that caused his death in 1893. At least, on 24th Oct 1890 there was an incident involving a James McConnell, (how many were there I wonder with the same occupation - a brusher), at the same Jelli(e)ston mine at Dalmellington Ayr. Apparently a shot went off before he had time to escape. Indeed a dangerous business in which to be involved - finally costing him his life 3yrs later!
It is curious that on the JKM/AM marriage cert of 1860 that Annie states her father to be Hugh Murray, labourer, yet at Annie's death son Alexander states that it is David Murray, distiller. Surely Annie knew her own father's name in 1860! Furthermore, Alexander didn't even appear to know his own grandmother's name either - Ann Fleming. Annie's evidence must be taken as the truth though, as Hugh was also her brother's name, which she then used for her own son, who in turn used it for his son too.
Incidentally, this may be new to to you - your Alexander was a witness to the marriage of his brother Hugh to Mary Robson in 1892.
Happy hunting,
Forestfan
Hi Forestfan,
Now, I didn't know about the first incident in 1890 at Jellieston ( I keep thinking of Yogi Bear ;D) mine involving a James McConnell. Can I ask where you found note of this please? I don't see any reference to it on the Scottish Mining website.
Annie's father - Hugh or David? Yes, I agree - I think Annie's 1860 marriage registration would be the more reliable source. And with a brother called Hugh and a son , well, that sort of backs it up, doesn't it !
Alexander would not be the first or the last informant of death to make a mistake with a name or completely forget/not know a name. He gives "David" Murray the occupation of distiller ( which is nothing like labourer). However it is possible Annie's father was both !
Interestingly, Alexander, who had five sons (only three of whom who survived to adulthood) named them James (after his father), Isaac (after his father-in-law) Alexander (after himself), John ( his paternal grandfather) and David …..after no-one. David, my grandfather, was born in 1911 ;).
I didn't know that Alexander had been Hugh's witness at his wedding.
To be honest with you, it wasn't until I uncovered Hugh a few years ago (think it was when I found his signature on James McConnell's death registration) I found out he'd had a brother. Hugh was never mentioned by my late father or grandfather (to my knowledge). I was only ever aware from my grandfather that his father had several sisters.
At the time I discovered Hugh, I spoke to a (then) surviving cousin of my father - a man with a keen interest in family history & "stories". He was stunned when I told him his grandfather had a brother called Hugh, initially disputing my find and insisting Alexander had been the only son.
This made me wonder if there had been some sort of estrangement between the brothers or if Hugh moved away from Ayrshire.
Thanks again for the information. If I uncover anything else relating to Annie I will let you know.
Looby :)
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Hi Looby,
The JKM 1890 mining accident is listed on the same website as the 1893 death i.e. UK Coalmining . . . . etc etc. - you'll need to refer to an earlier message!! Just type in his name; 1893; and Scotland - you'll work it out!! I am being cautious not mentioning the full name as the 'roots referee' as already shown me a yellow card, so to speak, for alleged impropriety!! Perhaps I'll get a red for this?!?
Interestingly, the name 'Kirkland' you mentioned was also the name of the Registrar on the death cert of Annie M/M - had you seen that? I wonder IF there's a connection there?! Just a crazy thought!!
Also interesting is the appearance (for me) of a 'David' - sort of lends a wee bit of weight to the ancestor's existence, or was Alexander just fixated with the name, the son being born just 2yrs before the AM death. Family history questions, eh?!
And families in general too! So much for the knowledge of the cousin with the "keen interest" - bet that put a smile on your face!
Hugh, a ploughman, married Mary Robson in 1892 at Keir, Dumfries, and resided in Ayrshire all his life until his death in 1916 at Glasgow Infirmary. So, he wasn't a million miles away!
His children were:
1. John - born illegitimate as a Robson in 1891, but later assumed McConnell after the 1892 marriage of his parents. Emigrated to Australia 1912. Served in WW1. Raised a family. Died c1963
2. James - my grandfather, 1893-1976, injured in WW1, moved to London, married 1917.
3. Hugh - 1895-1972, emigrated to America c1920s, died in a house fire in Ohio.
4. Margaret Walker - 1897-1984. No issue.
5. Robert - born/died 1900.
6. Robert - 1905-1963. No issue.
The much used 'Walker',above, is a Scottish name I've traced back to the 1630s in Angus. I don't think that'll be repeated with the Irish lines though!!
Forestfan
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Thanks for the information, Forestfan.
My thoughts are that Hugh's death in 1916 explains why I and others in the family were not aware of him. He died when my grandfather was only 5 years old , so it seems he was , sadly just too long gone by the time the next generation came along in the 30s and 40s.
Hugh's younger brother Alexander survived him by 40 years :o
My great grandfather died aged 86 in July of 1956. My father and aunt knew him well.
I'm puzzled as to any impropriety in any of your posts ??? Rootschat rules are fairly simple. You can't name anyone who is or potentially could be still alive. So James Kennedy McConnell and Annie McConnell nee. Murray are safe to name. Heavens ;D they died over one hundred years ago!
Please use the personal message system if you need to correspond in future. You can contact me direct through Rootschat by clicking on my profile and selecting personal message option.
Best wishes,
Looby ;)