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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Cheshire => England => Cheshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: timmis1 on Saturday 28 April 18 10:24 BST (UK)
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Hoping to cadge some more help, I have posted on here before about Johnathon Smith and I thought that I had cracked it, however I have just received the death certificate for a John Smith (profession gardener) 1876 Oxton Cheshire and it has the person registering his death being his wife Sarah.
I am a bit flumoxed now as the woman my Johnathan Smith married in June 1862 Liverpool was an Emma Roberts(born Thurstason) and his profession was a carter.
I had assumed that Johnathan was the John Smith Living in Oxton Cheshire during the 1851/61/71 census
As you will be aware from my other posts Johnathan and Emma were not together in 1871 as she is in Bury with her 18 month old daughter.
The one thing that didn`t ring true for Johnathan`s 1871 census entry was that his profession was given as Gardener as it is on his death certificate. However his marriage certificate says carter.
Otherwise the fit was good born in 1840 to a Richard & Ann, (Richard a labourer is down on Johnathan`s marriage certificate to Emma Roberts)
Any ideas?
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So - this is Emma in 1871? Daughter is 8mths and Emma says unmarried.
Elton Lancashire
Catherine Riley 32 widow bn Irleand
Emma Smith UNMARRIED 29 boarder bn Thirlaston Cheshire
Emma Smith dtr 8 mths bn Bury
Robert Riley 9 son
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I am wondering why you refer to him as Johnathon when he clearly signs his name as Jonathan?
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CRUELTY TO A HORSE
Jonathan Smith, carter, was charged by Inspector Crafter, of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, with worklng a lame horse. He was fined 10s and costs.
(Liverpool Mercury 4 October 1876)
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Hi Both
Lizdb yes that would be my Emma
Shaun, erm perhaps I have been creative with the spelling of this name, thanks for the newspaper clipping at least that confirms he was a carter and alive during part of 1876, I would have said that it would be unlikely that he is the John Smith living as a Gardner in Oxton at the time of the 1871 census.
When you say sign, what source did you mean?
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When you say sign, what source did you mean?
I am looking at his signature on the 1862 marriage register of St Nick's Liverpool.
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Have you found Jonathan for definite anywhere other than that 1862 marriage?
What about Emma? Where have you found her in order to confirm her pob as Thirlaston and lead you to the 1871 census? Why are you sure the Lancashire 1871 is her?
What children did Jonathan and Emma have?
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Thirlaston
That must be Thurstaston
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Hi Liz, Shaun
Firstly Shaun thanks for the signature information.
Liz I have always struggled with Johnathon, I only got a lead on him this Easter either in the Lancashire forum or this one
A suggestion was that hew was born in 1840 to a Richard(Labourer) & Ann In Oxton, this seemed to fit with respect to his
age,
father`s name
& father`s profession
as given on his marriage cert to Emma Roberts.
Then he was on the 1851.1861,1871 Censuses for Oxton
With respect to Emma convinced it is her in Bury 1871 as she was there in 1861 as a servant
in 1881 she is in Birkenhead with a Michael Fanning (perhaps a relative of the person she is living with in 1871? ie Catherine Riley) I think she is going under the name of Emma Fanning
In 1891 she is living in Oldham but as Emma Smith (I think Michael dies 1885)
Michael Fanning may be in truth Emma Robert`s (Smith) daughter (Emma) father,
however when Emma Smith married Richard Turner in 1899 she says her father is Johnathon Smith a carter (deceased)
However her sister Elizabeth calls herself Elizabeth Fanning and when she Marries the brother of Richard Turner.
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however when Emma Smith married Richard Turner in 1899 she says her father is Johnathon Smith a carter (deceased)
No she doesn't. It's Jonathan Smith !
I see that there are two Fanning witnesses to that one (Richard and Sarah Ellen)
Does the "Johnathon" spelling appear anywhere in the historical records or is that something that you have introduced to confuse us?
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A suggestion was that hew was born in 1840 to a Richard(Labourer) & Ann In Oxton
There is a baptism in 1841 (July 18th) at Woodchurch, Cheshire: Jonathan Smith son of Richard (a laborer) and Ann. The abode is Barnston, not Oxton.
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With respect to the Documentation
The marriage record of 1862 to Emmar Roberts says Jonathan,
the marriage record of his alleged daughter to Richard Turner 1899 also says Jonathan
The Jonathan of Barnston could be a possibility however I don`t know where he is for the 1851,61,71 census (I don`t have ancestry)
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1881
37 Mill Street, Tranmere
Jonathan Smith 39 labourer bn BArnston
Ellen 27 bn Downham Essex
John William 5 bn Brecon S. Wales
Charles 2 bn Tranmere
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In theory this one shouldn`t be mine as he married Emma Roberts in 1862 however, they could have gone their separate ways and started to cohabit with other partners.
Does it say what his occupation is?
Shaun the Newspaper article you have does it say where Jonathan was operating?
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1881
37 Mill Street, Tranmere
Jonathan Smith 39 labourer bn BArnston
Ellen 27 bn Downham Essex
John William 5 bn Brecon S. Wales
Charles 2 bn Tranmere
From the children’s births, mmn is Capon
Marriage 1874 Brecknock
Ellen Capon and John Smith are on the same page.
This man was noted but not the marriage, I don’t think, in this thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=744300.0
Heywood
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Shaun the Newspaper article you have does it say where Jonathan was operating?
No, I gave you a complete transcription.
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That`s a shame, obviously if it give a district/area it would give me more clues.
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Does Emma jnr’s birth certificate name Jonathan as her father?
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Hi Heywood
I am unable to get Emma Smith`s birth certificate from either Bury or the General Register Office at Southport (junior born around 1869/70) even thought there is a listing on the Lancashire BMD,
I also think that I need to look at Jonathan Smith again
as from the information when I asked before
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=790868.msg6472429#msg6472429
and in 2016
the two candidates proposed to be him which really seemed to fit the bill ie the one born in Oxton and the other Barnston should now be excluded as it has been shown that they marry people other than Emma Roberts
the Jonathan from Oxton marries a Sarah and dies in Oxton 1876 as a gardner
the Jonathan from Barston marries a Ellen, and his profession is not a carter
which is the profession of my Jonathan Smith who marries Emma Roberts in 1862 as he gives his profession as Carter at the time of his marriage and Shaun even flund a newspaper reference to him as a carter.
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In 1871 3959/126/55
Emma Smith is shown as 8 months and living in Elton.
The birth you refer to is
Emma Smith September quarter 1869 Bury vol 8c pg 433
Lancashire BMD shows this as Bury South district (not Elton).
There is a discrepancy with age which I think has been referred to previously but I do not understand why you can’t get the certificate. Did you name parents in your request? If so, and the child does not have Emma as a mother then that might be the reason.
I also mentioned in your earlier thread that there is a big gap between marriage and the child Emma’s birth so it must be taken into consideration that Jonathan is not the father of any children of Emma snr.
Of the Fanning children, I can only see Alice registered with that name. Have you found the others?
I don’t know if this has been mentioned - it offers very little
1861 2620/70/6
Jonathan Smith 24 yrs Carter b Cheshire
He is a servant living in Nantwich.
I must stress that this and the 1876 sighting may not be the same Jonathan and to me it looks very unlikely that Jonathan Smith is father to any of Emma’s children. But who knows!
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Re 1861 Jonathan Smith, Carter there is
1871 3711/149/58
Jonathan Smith 32 yrs married to Elizabeth and children in Nantwich area :-\ he is a labourer.
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I have lost the letter but when I printed out the form from LancsBMD for Emma Jnrs Birth and sent it to them as I recall they said even though there is a reference to this birth they could not locate it! I may try again for that one, you never know a different person looking for it.
With respect to Jonathan being the father I have often thought he could not be the father of Emma Smith Jnr (b 1869/70) however there is a large gap between Emma and her brother James born around 1874/5,
Also all other children seem to go by the name of Fanning in later life but Emma never uses the name other than if she is given it in a census as in 1881.
I have not found any reference to children from the Jonathan Smith & Emma Roberts union, I know none were living with her at the time of the 1871 census, just wondered if some died early and before Emma Jnr was born or were being looked after by some one else either her siblings or Jonathan`s.
Looking through previous posts there is a John Smith born c1841 Kirkby who appears in the 1861 census RG 9, Piece 2724 Folio 155 Page 30 with the occupation of Carter assigned to him ???
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In the 1861 census there are around 300 carters named John Smith in England & Wales but very few named Jonathan Smith:
In lodgings in Salford there is Jno Smith, 20, carter, NK England
On a farm in Wardle, Cheshire there is Jonathan Smith, 24, carter, Cheshire
On a farm in Bingley, Yorkshire there is Jonathan Smith,17, carter, Bingley (too young?)
On a farm in Burnby, Yorkshire there is Johnathan Smith, 17, carter, Burnby (too young?)
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You can check here for children names Smith with a mother Roberts.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
There are a lot ::) and would be too difficult perhaps.
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Awkward, none of them seem to fit, the Salford & Yorkshire ones would seem to be the wrong area, the Cheshire farm is a possibility?
I am only assuming that Jonathan would be around the same age as Emma Roberts who he married in 1862 Emma (born 1842/43 going off her age in the 1871 & 1891 census where her age is given as 9 & 29 respectively).
Perhaps he was a lot older than her and that`s why they married in Liverpool as she didn`t have her father`s approval and in Liverpool perhaps where they were less strict on proof of age etc
Just had a thought as we know Jonathan is still a carter in 1876(but obviously not very successful) perhaps he could be found on the 1871 census via occupation?
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I have had a look on the GRO website, and found a few Smith children whose mother had the maiden name of Roberts, I have listed below those that seemed most appropriate and looked at the most appropriate BMD to see if they survived.
I have recorded below the results from the births on the GRO and looking at deaths on the BMDs.
Jonathan Smith 1862 Birkenhead no suitable deaths on Cheshire BMD
William Robert 1863 Birkenhead no suitable deaths on Cheshire BMD
Elizabeth Smith 1863 Wirral an Elizabeth Ann dies Birkenhead 1864
Eilizabeth Smith 1863 Workhouse Wirral -
John Smith 1864 Bury no suitable deaths on Lancashire BMD
Richard Smith 1864 Birkenhead no death in same area between 1864 – 1870
the only trouble was that I couldn`t find the mothers Christian name on the records.