RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Biker on Sunday 07 August 05 17:57 BST (UK)
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Not a cheery subject I know, but I'm happy to do lookups for this resource - I found one of my lot in it who got 2 years hard labour for sleeping while on duty.
It covers death sentences passed by military courts of the British Army 1914-1924. Most of those noted were not executed but served some other form of sentence.
The information provided is:
Soldiers Name, Unit, Rank, Date and Offence, Final Sentence, Location (theatre of war or city/country). Some also include notes on next of kin, age, address, and type of offence.
Considering that some might find this information sensitive, if you'd like to PM your request, that's fine too.
You may also want to check this select list of deserters here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,130934.0.html
Regards
Jonathan
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Hi Jonathan!
Is this for people who have been Court Martialed or can you find people who seem to have gone missing for a couple of years ? what made you look there for your man?
Annie :P
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Is this for people who have been Court Martialed or can you find people who seem to have gone missing for a couple of years ? what made you look there for your man?
Hi Annie,
It is for those whose offences resulted in a death sentence being passed by a military court. Among the offences are desertion, Sleeping on Duty, Cowardice, Disobedience, Insubordination and various sorts of criminal behaviour etc. The Final Sentences however are very mixed, relatively few executions, but lots of Hard Labour, Prison but some had their charges quashed and overturned.
I looked for my chap here because it was part of family oral history that he had done something dodgy so I thought I'd see if it was true ... :P
Jonathan
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Just thought this may be of interest ... considering this subject matter !
In today's Sunday Times!
quote
"The report also claims that the courts martial had a class bias that is incompatible with an impartial system of justice. “The treatments meted out to officers and upper echelons tended to be at the lower end of the disciplinary scale, whereas lower ranks were often afforded little, if any, leniency.”
Of the 26 executions of soldiers serving in Irish regiments, 23 were for desertion, one for striking an officer, one for quitting his post and one for disobedience.
In one case a soldier was executed for a 45-minute absence. Most of the men were illiterate and had no grasp of military law. Only one of the 26 was provided with a “prisoner’s friend” — as was their entitlement — and most condemned soldiers and their appointed defending officers were unfamiliar with the system of pleas for mercy following conviction.
The report points out that just 10 years after the war ended, unease about the summary battlefield justice led to the death penalty being repealed for offences such as desertion and refusing to obey an order"
unquote
"Shot at Dawn" is another piece of compelling reading too!!
Annie ::)
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My husband sculpted the Shot at Dawn memorial as a gift to the relatives of the 306 British and Commonwealth executed men. John Hipkin continues to campaign tirelessly for the pardons for those shot (not incl. those for crimes such as murder.) Further information can be found at
www.shotatdawn.org.uk
www.publicart.co.uk.
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Well, anything is worth a try, I suppose! I have not as yet been able to find a registration of death for my great-grandfather Caleb Bull (born 1871, Market Drayton) even though my grandfather (born 1914) says he died when he was a child- he had no memory of him at all ... sooooo, is there any chance he may appear in the records you've kindly offered to look up??
Fingers crossed
Julie
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No he's not amongst those listed.
Regards
Jonathan
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hi
this is a complete stab in the dark but would you mind looking for any BEANEY's or 'JELLEY's for me?
thanks in advance
serena
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What wonderful names!!
Jelly Beany's ;) ;)
Annie
Sorry I just couldn't resist!!
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hi
i know what a combination! luckily the names are only through marriage not direct, my nan was joan jelley and she used to get called joan jelley wobble wobble!! poor thing.
oh well you cant pick your name i suppose.
serena
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;D I've got Craze and Batty in my tree, so I know what you mean ;D
There are no Beaneys, but there is a J Jelly, are you interested in him?
Jonathan
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hi
yes please i would be very grateful for his information.
thanks
serena
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Hi Serena (nice name, goes with Beaney too ;D)
Name: J Jelly
Unit: Royal Engineers
Rank: Pioneer
Date: 27/04/1918
Offence: Mutiny & Disobedience
Final Sentence: 5 years Penal Servitude
Location: Italy
Ref: PRO WO 213/22
Hope that is of use.
Regards
Jonathan
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Hi Jonathon, Would you please try for either HUDSON or MASKELL, he liked to change his name! ???
Many thanks,
Stella
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Hi Stella,
No Maskell. But there are several Hudson entries. Do you know his first name/initial or unit he served with?
Regards
Jonathan
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Hi Jonathon,
in relation to the HUDSON, his name was Henry Charles, often used Harry. Thanks for looking.
Stella :D
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Hi Stella,
No Henry or Harry.
Regards
Jonathan
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Hi Jonathon, thanks anyway, I appreciate your time to look ;D
Kind Regards, Stella
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Jonathan!
Do they name the regiments or just the name? did I ask you that already ?
let me rephrase that - if I gave you a regiment could you tell me everbody on the list or would that be a big chore??
:P
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Annie, aren't you the cheeky one then ;D I'd be here all night as there are several thousand entries :P
It is ordered alphabetically by Surname or chrologically by sentence date.
Do you have an individual in mind? I don't mind doing a skim through even to check alternative spellings or a unit with a name of sorts. Or are you documenting the history of a regimental unit?
I'm agog to know now ...
J :)
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I don't want to confuse you Jonathan - YOU know how that one goes!!! ::) ::)
I think I need it for documentation - maybe I should just PM you - and you could MAYBE do it at your leisure - how's that??
:P
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Happy to help Annie if I can, PM is fine.
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
J
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How come you always want to sleep - just as I'm getting going ?? :P
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Hi there,
Could you please do a lookup for the following surnames?
DEHAY (DEHAYS/ DEHAYES)
HAYES (Ernest and Samuel)
MALE (yes, the surname not sex!)
LONGSTAFF
Cheers for anything you can offer, even a nil return.
Louise
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Can you see any William James born 1870 Westminster or Sidney Cousins Hall bn c1890 Norfolk. Are there any records on this site for WWII lookups? Or army births between 1900 and 1910 and marriages between 1920 and 1928?
Thank you :)
Kind regards,
Debbie
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Hi
If it isn't much trouble:
Any EDMONDS or EDMUNDS on your list?
Or DEBOO ?
Thanks
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Hi Louise
Sorry no matches for your three surnames or variants.
Apologies for late reply but have been on holiday.
Jonathan
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No Deboo or Edmonds/Edmunds.
Regards
Jonathan
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Cheers Jonathan, thank you for looking. Guess I should be pleased they are all such a 'godly lot' and didn't end up in too much bother!
Louise
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Hello Jonathon, please could you look to see if my g.g.grandfather is listed. He was the detachment commander
of the British Unit stationed at Amritsar, India in 1919 where he apparently refused to open fire at Jallianwala Bagh and was dismissed from service. He never came back to the UK and stayed in India where he finally joined the 1st Bahawalpur Infantry!
His name was Captain J W Massey
thanks
Margaret
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Hi Margaret
He doesn't appear on the list.
Regards
Jonathan
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Hi Jonathan,
Could you look to see if there is any reference for either Frank, Arthur, Albert or David Bailey all from the Norfolk Regiment ?
TIA, Bruce
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Hello Bruce
None of them appear in the list.
Regards
Jonathan
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thanks Jonathan
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Hi Jonothan
could you do a look up please for one of my lot. He is
Thomas George William Gall
78399
Driver/Gunner
27th Brigade RFA
He deserted on the 16th Jan 1916. I haven't been able to find out anything about him after this date.
Many thanks
Mick
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Hello, Jonathan
Please could you look up my Great Grandad. I know he went AWOL, I believe, when he was in France. Family rumour has it that he was in the Army but went AWOL to join the Navy. He ended up marrying my great grandmother whilst he was AWOL. And after a few weeks of married life joined back up with the Army.
His name was Sidney James Griffiths (although he was born Mottram).
Here's hoping. :)
Kind Regards
Rachel
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Hi Mick
Thomas Gall isn't on the list.
Regards
Jonathan
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Hi Rachel,
They only give initials most of the time. There is this one ...
S Griffiths
Unit 2 KO Yorks LI
Rank Private
Date 25 Nov 1916
Offense Desertion
Final Sentence 10 years Penal Servitude
Location - Western Front
Ref - 213/12
No Mottrams
Hope that helps
Jonathan
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Hello, Jonathan
Thanks for looking. It doesn't feel right (the regiment) but I shall keep it in mind.
Just out of interest - do you have any Fairbairn/Fairburn/Fairbain? I collect all references to them if they appear in Staffordshire, Worcestershire or Warwickshire as there were only a few families in these areas.
Regards
Rachel
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Rachel
There is only one Fairburn and he is a Canadian.
Regards
Jonathan
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Thanks, Jonathan
Fairbairn is the only name I always check for. I would be wasting my time with the all Smiths, Mitchells, Southalls, etc. There are just too many of them.
Regards
Rachel
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hi Jonothan
thanks for the look up. I've got a sneaky feeling he went to Ireland -that was where he was born and grew up, I'll get to go there one day and check.
Thanks again
Mick
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I would be grateful for the details on Benjamin HART. He was "shot at dawn" for desertion, and I have some info, but would be interested in any details you have.
Very many thanks,
Chris
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Hi Chris
Here's what is recorded ...
Benjamin Albert Hart
Unit - 1/4 Suffolk
Rank - Private
Date - 28/01/17
Offence - Desertion
Final Sentence - Executed 6/2/17
Location - Western Front
Ref - 213/13
Also has the following Notes:
Aged 22. Brother (11 Suffolk) killed at Passchendaele. Son of Charles & Emma Hart, 101 Fore St, Ipswich, Suffolk. See also PRO W071/537
Hope that is useful.
Regards
Jonathan
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Thanks very much for the Benjamin Hart (& family!) information. That's a great help. Really appreciate your time and efforts.
Chris
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Hi,
Would greatly appreciate a lookup for
"Cyril John Smith" (Private, Lincolnshire Regiment, Regiment No: 1845)
Family history says he was executed for going AWOL.
Also, in general, do you know if a death certificate for people killed during the war, either in action or by execution, is issued. My reason is that I have been unable to locate certificates for people known to have died in action.
Thanks,
Dave
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Hi Dave,
There are a lot of Smiths as you can imagine, but none that seems to quite fit the bill. So the likely ones are as follows. There are few executions and the only possible one being John Smith of the 1 Loyal N Lancs. The only Smith with the correct sounding Unit is - J Smith, Unit: 10 Lincolnshire sentenced to 10 years penal servitude.
If any of these seems likely, let me know and I'll give you the details.
Regards
Jonathan
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Thanks for the effort, but he was definately Cyril rather than John.
Since I posted the question, I got a copy of his Medal Card. This seems to imply he never saw action, as only the Silver War Badge is shown, but it was susequently wiithdrawn.
Maybe he was just dishonourably discharged in the UK.
If it helps, here is a clickable link to an image of his MIC.
(http://img11.imagevenue.com/loc12/th_b9d_Image1.jpg) (http://img11.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc12&image=b9d_Image1.jpg)
Dave
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Hello Jonathan,
I'm currently constructing a Bundy one-name study website. I would appreciate a lookup for any Bundy's that may be listed as this would be an interesting addition should there be any listed.
All the best
Sue
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Sorry Sue, no Bundys.
Regards
Jonathan
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Dave
The only C Smith entries
C Smith, Unit: 12 Liverpool, Private, Desertion 19/4/16, 10 years penal servitude, location: Western Front
C Smith Unit: 14 Trench Mortar Bty, Driver, Desertion 16/1/18, 5 years penal servitude, location: ? (unstated)
Jonathan
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Thanks anyway Jonathan,
Can't say I'm glad there aren't any really though!!
It was kind of you to take the trouble to look and reply so speadily.
Sue
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Not a cheery subject I know, but I'm happy to do lookups for this resource - I found one of my lot in it who got 2 years hard labour for sleeping while on duty.
It covers death sentences passed by military courts of the British Army 1914-1924. Most of those noted were not executed but served some other form of sentence.
The information provided is:
Soldiers Name, Unit, Rank, Date and Offence, Final Sentence, Location (theatre of war or city/country). Some also include notes on next of kin, age, address, and type of offence.
Considering that some might find this information sensitive, if you'd like to PM your request, that's fine too.
Regards
Jonathan
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Hi Jonathan
I am seeking details of a Harry Hebb born circa 1884 who is reputed not to have returned from the 1914 - 18 war. Is it possible for you to check your records for me.
Thanks Davie
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Hi Davie
I checked and he isn't on the list.
Hope that helps.
Regards
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Hi Johnathan. Would there by any chance be any Kemps on the list. My grateful thanks Linda
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Hi Jonathan
Could you possibly find any Gathercole members on the list.
Jim
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Hi Jonathon, I am looking for information on John Joseph Sloan who fought in WW1. I am not sure which regiment (he was down as NOK on my great grandfathers enlistment papers but I cannot read the regiment and I don't think he survived the war). But I have found information on a John Sloan shot at dawn which I wonder if he could be mine. I have the courtmarshall papers but they do not give NOK or personal information. Are you able to find out any more? He was from Cumbria and would have been around 42yr old. Cass
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hi, could you look up Blackborow, a henry (i know he survived the war....just curous now about convictions) and a francis or frank - it's believed francis/frank died in the war at some point....(and was never spoken about again!!).....trouble with my family is that they had an awful habit of not liking their real names and calling everyone by different ones!
and could you also look for Booker.
so anyone with those surnames would be a great help!
cheers
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Hello
No likely match for Henry or Francis, but since you said they used different names there is this ...
James Blackbarrow
Unit 2 E Surrey
Rank Private
Date 24/7/1915
Offence Desertion
Final Sentence 10 years penal servitude
Location Western Front
Ref 213/4
No Bookers.
Hope that helps.
J
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Could you please do a look up for the surnames Brotherton or Warwick
Thanks
Dave
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I'm trying to find information on a Corporal JLG Cobley, 2nd Leicestershire Regiment. I would like to exclude the possibility of a court martial/death sentence.
Thanks for your help.
George.
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Sorry for the delay in responding, but I've only just noticed these requests. Think I'm having a few problems with my notification system :(
No Brotherton or Warwick postman.
Biker
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George
No Cobley mentioned.
Sorry for delay.
Regards
Biker
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Thanks for checking, Biker. It was just the answer I was hoping for.
Merry Christmas.
George. :)
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Hi Biker,
Could you look for any Nash or Salisbury names if it is not to much trouble.
Thanks in advance
Robert
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Hi Robert
No Salisbury, but there is an FC Nash.
Regards
Biker
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Hi Biker
Thanks so much for looking, could you give me details of F C Nash?
Regards
Robert
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Sure no problem ...
FC Nash
Unit - Labour Corp
Rank - Private
Date 3/9/19
Offence - Murder
Final Sentence - Penal Servitude Life
Location - Turkey
Ref 90/8
Notes: Constantinople
Cheers
Biker
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Hi Biker,
I don't suppose there's a William Wilmer Basil Morgan listed?
I can't find him in the ww1 medal cards index.
Toni
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Hi Toni
No he doesn't appear on the list.
Regards
Biker
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it was just a thought. Thanks for looking.
Toni
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Hi Biker
Would you please look to see if there is a Harry Hayes born 1896. Was
wounded whilst in HLI. Possible new regt. 1st Camerons may have changed
his name to Burns. Date of death Nov 28 1917 Passchendaele?
Pat
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Pat
Nothing under Harry Hayes or Burns.
Regards
Biker
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Hi Jonathon, I realise that you are getting many requests for lookups but I wondered if I could request this one again. My great uncle John Joseph Sloan was in WW1 but I'm not sure which regiment. He served in France but I don't think he survived the war as I can't find him afterwards. I have found a John Sloan that was shot at dawn and got his cour martial papers which did not contain any personal info so I do not know if he is mine. My John was born in cumbria but Lived in Durham and would have been around 42yrs. Are you able to find any more info on the one who was shot? Many thnaks Cass
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Hi Cass
There is this ...
J Sloan
Unit 1/4 KOR Lancaster
Rank Private
Date 29/06/16
Offence Desertion
Final Sentence Execution 16/07/16
Location Western Front
Ref 213/9
Notes: See also PRO WO71/482
Hope that helps.
Regards
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Hi Biker
Thanks very much for looking up Hayes/Burns
pat
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Thanks Jonathon, I will have to try and find his enlistment papers to find NOK and see if he is mine. Regards Cass
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Hi Jonathan
I seem to have lost my Great Grandfather Harry WRIGHT. He served with the Army Service Corps in WW1, his regimental number is T/328310.
Would you mind seeing if he is on the list for prisoners/executions
Kindest regards
Rob
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Hi Rob
Sorry for the delay. Can't find anything obvious for Harry.
Regards
Biker
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Thanks for the look-up
Kind regards
Rob
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Hi Biker,
Would you be able to look up the name Waite for me please?
Family stories have always said he disgraced the family around the time of WW1, and I would be very interested to see if this is why!
Thanks.
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Hello
There is only one listed ...
J Waite
Unit: 2 R Warwickshire
Rank: Private
Date: 15/02/15
Offence: Desertion
Final Sentence: 2 years Hard Labour
Location: Western Front
Ref: 213/3
No additional notes.
Hope that helps.
Regards
Biker
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Hi, could you plz have a look for any MILES or BROCK
thanks onecoat
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Hi Onecoat
There is no Brock, but there is an EJ Miles. If he's yours let me know and I'll post the details.
Cheers
Biker
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Hi Biker, i do have an E J Miles in the family, could you plz send the info so i can have a good lokk plz
thanks onecoat
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Hi Biker
(from another)
When I see any thing like this I always plug my family name in and just see what comes up. When you have time could you try KETCH. It is really rare and I don't really expect a result but it covers another base, however unpalatable.
Many Thanks
Andy
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Hi Andy
No Ketch listed to confirm your reasoning ;D
Cheers
Biker
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Hi Biker
That good news
Happy biking this summer (when it arrives)
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Could you look this up when you get a minute
James Lawrence Eaves
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Hi
Mr Eaves doesn't appear on the list.
Regards
Biker
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Hi Biker, did you manage to get the info for E.J.Miles for me plz
thanks onecoat
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Hi onecoat
Sorry missed that post. Here you go ...
Miles EJ
Unit - 2 E Surrey
Rank - Private
Date - 24/03/15
Offence - Sleeping
Final Sentence - 3mos FP1
Location - Western Front
Ref 213/3
FP1 is in the explanatory notes as ...
Field Punishment Number One, which entailed being tied to a fixed object for many hours each day ...
Regards
Biker
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Oh my goodness Biker!
I'm imagining men absolutely exhausted - and being punished for it! :-\
My heart goes out to them!
Annie :'(
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Hi Annie
I know what you mean, I don't think we can comprehend how hard it was really, some of the stories are indeed heartbreaking. One of my lot was also found on it, also for sleeping - no wonder !!
They were serving their country and doing their best under extreme conditions - so big respect to all.
Cheers
Biker
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many thanks Biker for that info, if it is the right one it is my mothers uncle.
regards onecoat
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Hi Biker,
Have you anything on a Francis McGurk, Northumberland Fus. 17197.
James McQuade. Glasgow. Royal Engineer. think reg. no was 272481/wr509632.
Thanks, Ele.
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Hi ele
Can't see anything for McGurk. The only McQuade is a John of the 18 Highland Light Infantry 4th Glasgow (Bantam) Batalion. If you'd like the information on John, let me know.
Regards
Biker
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Thanks Biker,
I wouldnt mind the info. on the John McQuade if thats ok.. and thanks for looking for McGurk.. much appreciated, Ele.
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Hi ele
John McQuade
Unit 18 Highland LI
Rank Private
Date 10/10/1916
Offence Desertion x 2
Final Sentence Executed 6/11/1916
Location Western Front
Ref 213/12
Additional Notes: 4th Glasgow (Bantam) Batalion. See also PRO WO71/518
Regards
Biker
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Do you have anyone named Thomas LAMB from Manchester or South Lancashire?
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Oops - never mind - I found him here:
http://tinyurl.com/kqu7y
National Roll of the Great War 1914-1918 (Manchester)
page 217:
LAMB, T. J., L/Corporal, 2/7th Manchester Regt.
Volunteering in October 1914, he was retained on work of National importance as an iron turner at Messrs. Blakeley's Munition Factory, Atherton, Lancs., and did consistently good work during the whole period of the war. He rendered valuable services and in 1920 after his demobilisation in February of the previous year, was still employed by the same firm. 12, Brunswick Street, Hulme, Manchester Z6950
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Thanks Biker for that.. much appreciated..
Have a nice day/night Ele
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Hi,
Assuming offer still stands can you look something up for me. Just found out my Grandfather was dishonourably discharged 'never to serve again'
He was in the Somerset Light Infantry and his name was Louis W. Macdonald.
Don't know if it will assist but the discharge was possibly in the Far East between 1924 & 1931.
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Tracey
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Hi Tracey
I looked him up for you but he doesn't appear on the list.
If you haven't already, I wonder if it might be worth posting a fresh request in the Armed Forces section as there are some people with other resources that might help you out.
Regards
Biker
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Thanks Biker,
will do as you suggest.
Tracey
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Biker,
Are the records just for the Army or the Armed Forces? My great grandfather was in the Merchant Navy and was called Christopher FORAN. He died during the close of the war killed in battle but just wondering if he served any punishment prior to this?
Thanks
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Hello
There is no Foran listed but this is British Army only not Merchant Navy.
Regards
Biker
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Thanks for looking anyway Biker :)
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Hello Biker,
Could you look up for me PETTS SWIFT & MUNN Please?
Thank you.
Pettsy
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Hi pettsy
Only ones I can see is a Swift J and a Swift JC.
Sounds like yours? If so let me know and I'll give you the details.
Cheers
Biker
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Hi Biker
Sorry for delay, had to ask my mum which one, as it is her side of the family.
Could you please give me the details of J SWIFT and also tell me where JC Swift was from?
Thank you for checking.
Pettsy ;)
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Hi Biker
Could you please look up Percy Miller Phillips for me. He was my great uncle and I found him in the army death lists (died 1916) listed as a Lieutenant Percy M Phillips. I'm keen to find out how he died and confirm that the M stands for Miller.
Laine
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Hello Biker,
I wondered if it was possible to tell me if any Royal Garrison Artillery men deserted and were sentenced. I have no particular name in mind , just an interest in RGA.
Regards
Alan
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Apolgoies for delay in replying to these request but I've been off quite a bit this summer.
Anyway, Pettsy
Swift J
Unit 115 MGC
Rank Cpl
Date 15/11/17
Offence Sleeping
Final Sentence Not Confirmed
Location ?
Not much info there I'm afraid.
Swift JC
Unit 2KO Yorks LI
Rank Pte
Date 6/4/16
Offence Desertion
Final Sentence 5 yrs Penal Servitude
Location Western Front
Hope that helps
Biker
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Hi Laine
Mr Phillips doesn't appear on the list. Did you try posting a request on the Armed Forces board?
Regards
Biker
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Hi Alan
The list is alphabetical by name so looking at all of the units is quite a time consuming job. I'd be more than happy to look up an individual though if you have someone in mind.
Regards
Biker
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Thank you Biker
I will pass the info onto my mother.
She was a Swift, will know more than me.
Pettsy
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Would you mind having a look for Celestine Cyril Woodcock please?
He didn't like his forename so often went by Cyril Woodcock instead.
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Hi Zeb
He is not listed.
Regards
Biker
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Hi, Im struggling to find a record of death for my gg grandad Thomas William Fisher who was supposed to have served and died in WW1, could he be on your list? Thank you,
Kathryn
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Hi Jonathan,any info on a George Mee 2552 2nd Battalion Sherwood Foresters in 1916.
Alan Mee
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Hi
Please could you have a look for my great grandfather, according to his medal card he deserted towards the end of the war -
Albert L Potter
Royal Field Artillery 46325 Gunner
Many thanks
Melanie
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Hi
Bit off subject but I don't suppose you know where I'd find info on people who actually served on firing squads???
jess
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Hi Jonathan
Just found your offer of look up wonder please could you see if you can find 2 brothers surname Tacchi .The family story is that they either deserted or where shot for crime commited.
Regards Christine
Moderator Comment: topic locked, until Biker renews his offer.
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Hi All this thing was originated by biker he road off into the sunset !! al b
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Hi,
I'm hoping you may be able to find John Edwin Marr born 1880 Hulme, Manchester, Lancashire. After the war he changed his surname to Harrison (mother's maiden name). I thought he seemed a little old for WW1 but maybe not.
Thanks,
Joan
Moderator comment: as pointed out above, this thread was started by Biker, one of our esteemed members, who hasn't been online for a while. I have locked the thread, to avoid disappointment. If/ when Biker is able to start look-ups again we can unlock and continue as before. Apologies for any disappointment.