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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: Sturdy on Tuesday 01 May 18 01:20 BST (UK)
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I came by this photo discarded in a large box of unrelated papers and have been trying unsuccessfully to try and restore this man's id.
The photo is off a WW1 Australian Sergeant. I am unsure of the unit however has the letter A under the unit badge.
Written on the back is Uncle Jack FRANCIS. Mum's brother in W.A (if am reading it rightly). I have tried trawling through online resources for Australian soldiers with the name John FRANCIS, Jack FRANCIS or John Francis .......... for given names who may have enlisted in time to be at Gallipoli and be promoted to Sgt or beyond, with possible links to W.A - without success.
The question I have is there a comprehensive list of soldiers who served at Gallipoli that could be scanned through for the name Francis , When was the A badge issued and does anyone have an idea of a possible unit for this man. He isn't wearing an ribbons so I don't think it was taken at the end of the war but I am only guessing. I haven't given up on this one yet - any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
Thanking you in advance
Sturdy
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Hi,
Have you considered asking the Australian War Memorial re the colour patch and the A badge and for the list of names etc? They are very helpful.
https://www.awm.gov.au/index.php/collection/research-at-the-memorial
JM
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From my own experience with writing on the back of old photos, I wouldn't limit your search to WA. It is possible that is where he lived after the war, or in the writer's knowledge.
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A guide to unit patches might narrow your search down.
https://guides.slv.vic.gov.au/wwone_soldiers/patches
In my experience they were all ANZACs, they didn't necessarily serve in Gallipoli.
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Thanks JM. I will try the AWM. Previous experience with emails to AWM I haven't received a reply but will happily try again. I agree re comment for WA. It could be pre or post war reference.
Nanna to have the A brass badge it is my understanding you had to have served at Gallipoli hence I am trying to narrow down the various soldiers with the name Francis (surname or given name) that served there. I am happy to be corrected if that was not the case otherwise I am a wild goose chase.
Regards
Sturdy
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If he isn't related to you then I am not sure sure how you will know if you find him?
This one was a farrier Corporal and temporary farrier Sergeant, promoted in 1918.
http://soda.naa.gov.au/record/4033259/1
I usually find it easier to initially search the indexes here:
https://www.aif.adfa.edu.au/search
Debra :)
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And adding to Dundee's suggestions,
https://search.findmypast.com.au/search-world-Records/australian-imperial-force-nominal-roll-1914-1918
I think this link is to a free index, which likely will have been developed from the nominal roll readily available online. But this live link may help with initial searching for FRANCIS as a surname, and limiting the years 1914, 1915, so that once a shorter list of possibles can then be undertaken for the actual service records.
Fingers crossed
JM
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Just about to post similar Debra :)
John Thomas Francis lived in Narrogin and awarded the Military Cross died 1960 in Perth and is buried there
1st Division Train ASC and their badge looks like the one on his shoulder
1st) Divisional Train, 4th Company, Army Service Corps
https://www.aif.adfa.edu.au/OrderOfBattle/Service_Corps.html
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Using the great link that Nanna gave re the AIF colour patches, the vertical colour patch this chap is wearing is likely to be 'white' on the right hand stripe.
ADD, none showing as 'white' on the colour patch link, but several are obviously 'lighter' in colour on the right panel. :) but verticals were fifth div only, and the battalions in the 5th div are named there.
JM
A guide to unit patches might narrow your search down.
https://guides.slv.vic.gov.au/wwone_soldiers/patches
In my experience they were all ANZACs, they didn't necessarily serve in Gallipoli.
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Should he have had a horseshoe on his sleeve if he was a farrier?
Debra :)
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I have added to my post. Vertical patches seem to be for 5th division.
JM
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Thank you
Looking at John Thomas FRANCIS service records it looks like he was in the 4th Div for most of his service. It also worries me that he was awarded the MM in 1916/ 1917 but not wearing the ribbon bar in the picture. I will have a closer look when I finish work at the various movements for J T FRANCIS but haven't ruled him out yet..
Debra - once I am happy with a couple of possible soldiers I will see if I can find an existing photos for those soldier or locate possible descendants. Long shot but I am not giving up yet.
Thanks again
Sturdy
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This could be your man:
https://www.aif.adfa.edu.au/showPerson?pid=103095
https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/awm-media/collection/RCDIG1067852/large/5376893.JPG
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/DetailsReports/ItemDetail.aspx?Barcode=31122841&isAv=N
http://www2.mcb.wa.gov.au/NameSearch/details.php?id=KB00114678
EDIT following further research:
HONOURS AND AWARDS
John Thomas Francis
Service number 916
Rank Corporal
Unit: 1st Australian Army Service Corps Company
Service: Australian Imperial Force
Conflict/Operation: First World War, 1914-1918
Award: Military Medal
Commonwealth of Australia Gazette 25 July 1917 on page 1543 at position 112
London Gazette 19 February 1917 on page 1756 at position 12
He was recorded as 22 years of age (dovetails nicely with 4th hyperlink) at enlistment on 10 Sep 1914 and born at Wellington, South Australia.
FURTHER EDIT:
Given Names: John Thomas
Last Name: FRANCIS
Birth Year: 1891
Father: John FRANCIS
Mother: Maria MORONY
District: Frome
If this is your man, I live not too distant from the Cemetery and would be pleased to forward an image or two of his final resting place.
q98
Fremantle
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Just jumping in here :) ....
To check if David and q98's man is the right one, might it be worth looking for descendants in case any of them have photos or can ID him?
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Just back from work and catching up. Thank you for the offer q98 however I think at this state I might try to utilise the findmypast site Majm recommended as it looks like it will be of great assistance in filtering a number of the various combination of names in or out. I will try to tackle that over the week and let you know if I make any progress
Many thanks
Sturdy
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Two observations if I may.
1. The letters RASC are visible on his right epaulette
2. The gap between the top and centre stripes of Sergeant rank is not uniform as it should be IF the rank badge was a genuine one-piece item. It appears to be a Lance Corporal's single stripe added above a Corporal's two stripes. Further, this top stripe appears slightly narrower and a different "pattern weave". Please see below regarding temporary promotion.
EDIT: Further research reveals his Service Record here https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=4033259
It reflects service at Gallipoli and a possible wounding there. He was promoted to Temporary Farrier Staff Sergeant with effect 14 Sep 1918 and 19 days later reverted to Farrier Corporal. The temporary promotion was to cover the absence of the substantive individual. An official notification of the awarded Military Medal was sent to his brother "Mr P J FRANCIS" whose name appears to have been deleted and replaced with "Mrs Mary Daly, Broomhill, WA". This notification commences with "Dear Sir" corrected to "Dear Madam" and refers to "your brother" which has not been corrected. It is possible Mrs Daly was John's married sister.
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Just to add a bit of useless info. This was probably taken when on leave to Australia while still a Sgt. prior to reverting back to Cpl.
The ASC received the Royal prefix in 1918.
Oct. 1918 I would suggest as a date.
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Oct. 1918 I would suggest as a date.
I would suggest a slightly wider date range, that of the 19 days Temporary rank; 14 Sep 1918 - 03 Oct 1918 when he reverted to his substantive rank. Nine days later, Farrier Corporal FRANCIS embarked for Australia at "Havre" (Le Havre?).