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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Yorkshire (East Riding & York) => England => Yorkshire (East Riding & York) Lookup Requests => Topic started by: PD126 on Wednesday 02 May 18 17:17 BST (UK)
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Looking for any information on my great great grandfather Anthony Bertholini. Believe he came from the region around Lucca in Italy in the early 19th century. He was a plaster figure maker. There was quite a migration of these figure makers at the time as Italian plaster figures became very popular. I have a wife's name of Hannah Caroline - whether the Caroline was her maiden or middle name I don't know. I'm led to believe they married in Middlesex in 1824 and had a son, also Anthony in Hull in 1826. I have found an Anthony Bertholini in Holborn London of the right age, but he still appears on the census there, on his own, several censuses after the Anthony Bertholini I am interested in was married and had young Anthony. Young Anthony was baptized in Holy Trinity Church in Hull on 16 March 1829 (FHL Film Number
990830 ) - unbeknown to me that Roman Catholic baptisms were not allowed at the time. Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
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Welcome :)
Are you sure the Anthony who married in London was the father of the Anthony who was baptised in Hull?
See this census entry:
1871 census: RG10/376/7/7
9 Leather Lane, Holborn
Anthony Bertolini Head Mar 60 Figure maker born Italy
Maria do Wife Mar 59 Norfolk
Anthony do Son Unm 40 Figure maker Norfolk
William do Son Unm 23 Tailor St Andrews, Middlesex [this is the parish for Holborn]
Anthony (jnr) seems to have died shortly after this census: Anthony Bertolini aged 40, Jun qtr 1871 Holborn.
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Same family, same place in 1841 (though young Anthony's birthplace is now Middlesex):
Leather Lane, Holborn
Antonio Bertolini 35 Figure maker born Foreign Parts
Maria do 29 Not born in county
Antonio do 10 Y [Born in county]
Elizabeth do 9 Y
Teresa do 4 Y
Sarah do 1 Y
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In 1861:
Antony Bertolini 30 Figure maker born Norwich is again with his family at 9 Leather Lane, Holborn.
Anthony Bertholini 32 Dock labourer born Hull is in Drypool, Hull with wife Jane and family.
Which is your family line?
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Mine is Anthony Bertholini 32 Dock labourer born Hull is in Drypool, Hull with wife Jane and family.
I looked at the Holborn ones on the census but they did not appear to line up. Unless my Anthony did what they did in the bible and returned home every census. Is that an Italian thing maybe?
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I agree with you that they don't line up, especially as both (younger) Anthonys are in different places at the same time in 1861, and the Hull one long outlived the Holborn one.
So: do you have "your" Anthony's marriage to Jane, and what does it say as to the name and occupation of his father?
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Actually I have now found it - he married Jane Boyes Crosby 13 Apr 1856 at Sculcoates.
Anthony's details: 28, bach, labourer, of Bourne St. Father: Anthony Bertholini, plaster figure maker.
Witnesses: John Bradbury; Mary Ann Shepherd.
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His name is also Anthony - he is the plaster figure maker . I have a copy of their marriage certificate if I could figure out how to attach
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I suggest you don't attach a full certificate image as there may be copyright issues. I have extracted the relevant information in my previous post.
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Well, this certainly is a puzzle :)
Did you say you found the Hull baptism on Familysearch? I am not seeing it.
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Also, what is the source for 1865 as a death date for Anthony snr? I'm not finding such a death record on FreeBMD, but if it could be found it might indicate what name he was using at the time.
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There's a baptism (transcription only) on FindMyPast for -
Anthony Bertholini, bap 16 Mar 1829, age 6mths, place Hull, parents Anthony and Hannah Caroline.
Can only see one birth/baptism for this couple.
Struggling to find the family in '41 or '51.
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On Family Search, Anthony Bertholine, 6 March 1829, H.T. Hull
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N1PM-H72
Is Bartholme on Yorkshire Baptisms (elsewhere!)
On the original, it looks like it does say Bertholini, born 18 Sep 1828. Father a Plaister figure maker
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Hmm - I'm guessing I got his date of death from someone else's tree when I first started doing Ancestry. I'm a little more picky these days with finding corroborative facts.
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Could be the marriage of Anthony and Maria in Norwich?
20 October 1829, St George Colegate
Anthony Batley + Maria Larwood
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJ9-997K-P?i=57&cat=236439
Birth, Dec 1845 Holborn 2 164
Bartolini, William Larwood
Be nice to find that birth in the new GRO index to get the mother's maiden name!
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Just to add the Bertolini family in the 1851 census. Residing in Leather Lane, Liberty of Saffron Hill
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2M2-RV8H
Maria, Antonio junior, and Elizabeth all born Norwich.
Was then the Anthony born in Hull illegitimate, despite the suggestion in the baptism record?
Father Anthony then moving down to Norwich, where he marries Maria, and has a legitimate son, also called Anthony?
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Could be the marriage of Anthony and Maria in Norwich?
20 October 1829, St George Colegate
Anthony Batley + Maria Larwood
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJ9-997K-P?i=57&cat=236439
Birth, Dec 1845 Holborn 2 164
Bartolini, William Larwood
Be nice to find that birth in the new GRO index to get the mother's maiden name!
Batley! Well found. The birth reg of Sarah Bartolini mmn Larwood, Jun qtr 1840 Holborn, confirms.
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Was then the Anthony born in Hull illegitimate, despite the suggestion in the baptism record?
Father Anthony then moving down to Norwich, where he marries Maria, and has a legitimate son, also called Anthony?
Yes, I wondered this. My ggg-grandfather (a John) had sons named John by both his lawful wife and his bigamous “wife”.
Interesting to note the Hull man’s accuracy concerning his paternal details. He knew who his father was and the occupation, which is by no means always the case for illegitimate children.
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Coming at this from another angle, I notice this family which may fit in somehow:
1881 census: RG11/342/25/43
St Albans Mission Home, 24-26 Baldwin’s Gardens, Holborn
Pasquale Bartelloni Head Wid 55 Figure maker Italy
Philmina do Daur 20 Map mounter Yorks Hull
Caterina do Daur 16 Machinist Middlesex Holborn
Luigia do Son 9 Scholar Middlesex Holborn
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1891 shows Pasquali Bartelloni as father in law of John J Carslake whose wife is Maria P, 30 b Hull.
Pasquali’s birthplace is shown as Luca, Italy, c1826.
1891: RG12/225/10/16
John Joseph Carslake had married Maria Philomena Bartilloni, Dec qtr 1883 City of London.
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Pasquale’s wife was Catherine (Walker or Vaccare) b Boston Lincs.
They married Dec qtr 1856 Manchester as Pasquale Bartellone & Catherine Vaccare (which may in other contexts have been anglicised to Walker, her mmn on children’s birth registrations, & as she appears in Hull in 1841 & 1851; the 1841 shows that her father Jno “Walker” was born in Italy).
They are in Hull in 1861: RG9/3590/117/1.
In Holborn by 1871 (Pasquale calling himself John): RG10/376/87/36.
Catherine died in 1872 (Catherine Bartoloni aged 40, Sep qtr 1872 Holborn).
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I have a theory - as is seems that Anthony Bertholini senior was never married to Hannah Caroline (Caroline would have been a Christian name, mothers surname not shown in the parish records) thought I would try and find a Hannah Caroline.
Could only find an Ann Caroline Wheat (no Hannah Caroline's) who married a James Clarke, sugar baker, 13/3/1830 Sculcoates All Saints, Yorkshire. In 1841 they are living at Sutton, Yorkshire but their 4 children at that time were all baptised in Drypool (where Anthony later was).
Whilst I can't find Anthony junior in 1841, I then found in 1851 an Anthony Wheat 23 born Hull, shown as nephew to a Mary Knapp 74 wid. who's dau. Maria Parr 50 widow is also there. I can find no trace of a baptism for an Anthony Wheat nor is there any sign of him after this census. So, was Anthony Wheat actually your Anthony Bertholini junior? After juniors birth, senior did a runner and en route to London met and married someone else whilst Hannah Caroline/Ann Caroline also married herself. Quite how Anthony Wheat is a nephew to Mary Knapp I have no idea but if Mary gave the details to the enumerator, knowing that his parents were not married did she simply give his surname as his mothers maiden name??
All supposition on my part but felt I should mention it.
Annette
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You may have cracked it, Annette.
Merchant Seamen - Register of Seamen's Tickets (BT 113)
Anthony Wheat
Born at Hull, 16 Sep 1828
Capacity - Boy
First went to sea as a Boy in 1841
Resides at Hull, issued 15 April 1846
Age when ticketed 18
Height 5' 51/2", Brown hair, Fresh complexion, Grey eyes!
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Thanks everyone for looking under stones I'd never even considered. The fact that there appears to be only one child from the union of Anthony Bertholini senior and Hannah Caroline would suggest, notwithstanding medical issues, that the wham bam thank you ma'am theory has some merit. That there is no trace of them marrying or living together reinforces that theory. I may have to work timelines on both Anthony seniors to see if this is feasible. The other thing that is so tantalizing is the fact that Anthony junior's future wife, Jane Crosby was working as a maid in a hotel a quarter of a mile from where the London Bertholinis are in Holborn a year before they marry in Hull. So did he meet her down there or in Hull? If it was down there - why is he so close to the London Bertholinis? Co-incidence? I'd love to know!
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With regards to Anthony Wheat/Bertholini - the plot thickens. Did I mention that his future wife Jane Crosby was born in Hamburg. Her father Richard Crosby was a mariner
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Born at Hull, 16 Sep 1828
Rechecking that baptism, it does say born 18 Sep. But there's just two days difference! Close enough?
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Great stuff. I see that Ann Caroline Clarke nee Wheat was (per 1851) born in Gainsborough, Lincs, as was Maria Parr (noted, incidentally, as blind in 1851) so perhaps the family link is there somewhere.
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1841 census: 1 Line, Albert St, Sutton, Hull
Mary Wheat 65 N
Marria Parr 35 N
Elizabeth Taylor 15 F.S. Y
Antony Wheat 12 Y
plus an Irish Murphy couple.
HO107/1225 bk4 f32 p13
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With regards to Anthony Wheat/Bertholini - the plot thickens. Did I mention that his future wife Jane Crosby was born in Hamburg. Her father Richard Crosby was a mariner
Unfortunately just as Anthony Wheat/Bertholini is going to sea, in 1841 Jane Crosby is a 14 year old servant in a dentists house in Hull
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Mary “Whet” (widow) had married John Francis Knapp (labourer), 28 Sep 1817 Holy Trinity Hull.
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Thanks again everyone and particularly Annette. I spent several hours creating timelines for the dual identities of all the players and Annette's supposition fits perfectly. Would explain why I could only ever find one Anthony Bertholini senior (in London rather than Hull) and never found Hannah Caroline other than on the baptism certificate. I would also say that Anthony junior would have needed his baptism certificate or a copy in order to get married and could then have found out his paternal surname and adopted it accordingly.