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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Leicestershire => Topic started by: Taylor94 on Thursday 03 May 18 20:12 BST (UK)
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Hi
I cant seem to locate a burial for my 4th grt grandmother.
Husband Thomas dies 1873 Leicester.
Celia dies sometime between 1871-1881 as children in 1881 are inmates at a workhouse in Leicester.
I've looked on GRO/FindMyPast with the surnames Burt/Birt/Bert but to no avail.
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What was her birthdate please, even if approximate, to match with age at death?
Did she have a middle name?
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Born 1841 Loughborough, Daughter of James Callaghan and Catherine.
As far as I know she didnt have a middle name.
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Have you seen workhouse records to say that the children are orphans? It could be that the children are in the workhouse as she couldn't cope, or could be working as a servant somewhere, so may not have died.
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As far as I can see it just lists Christopher and John Burt as Scholers on the 1881 Workhouse census. How would I find out more in depth?
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I can't see anything about a burial for Celia at Welford Rd.
There are details about discharge from the workhouse for Christopher and John Burt:
Christopher - discharged 3 Sept 1881 to service, Mr Nevil, Blacksmith
John - discharged 27 Nov 1884 to Cottage Homes. John at that time was 12 years old, described as an orphan, roman catholic; discharged 8 August 1887 to Mr Wortley, Coalville. (Details from the FHS poor law CD).
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John at that time was 12 years old, described as an orphan,
That's a good find, Annie - confirms Celia has died. I can't see a death though.
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Thomas is bured with another Burt (his father maybe?) and some Callaghans. Celia is not in the same grave.
Welford Rd, plot UR 2298:
BURT, MATTHEW JAN 15 1864 age 63 LATE LEICESTER INFIRMARY
CALLAGHAN, MARY JAN 9 1872 age 35 NEW LANE SAINT MARGARET
BURT , THOMAS APR 11 1873 age 42 LEICESTER UNION HOUSE
CALLAGHAN, DAVID MAY 8 1875 age 45 LEICESTER UNION HOUSE
KINGSTON, JOHN WILLIAM DEC 16 1875 age 1MTH NEW LANE SAINT MARGARET
HOLDEN, JAMES CHARLES FEB 23 1939 age 60 C.G.H. / 30 MELBOURNE ROAD [CITY GENERAL HOSPITAL]
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John at that time was 12 years old, described as an orphan,
That's a good find, Annie - confirms Celia has died. I can't see a death though.
Well, it confirms that the staff filling in the form at the Cottage Homes believed that Celia had died.
(as an aside, so many of those children were described as "abandoned" -- poor wee mites)
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Thank you very much for your replies, I too still cant see a burial for her.
Yes Matthew Burt is Thomas's father and Mary and David Callaghan are Celias siblings.
I have a query regarding 'described as an orphan, roman catholic' would this religion be what was instilled in them by an orphanage/workhouse or would this refer to the family's personal religion?
As my Callaghans seem to be going between the two which apparently was unusual. I have Celia's mother Catherine as baptised Roman Catholic but the two baptisms for celias siblings mary and david in Ireland have them as baptised Anglican, so just wondered.
I was hoping once seeing Callaghans mentioned in the burial it might throw up a James Callaghan.
Celia has another brother called James born abt 1838 Ireland. He is on the 1841 census when they are living in loughborough but then disappears, I assume he died as a child but I couldn't see anything.
May I ask was it on a CD from where you got those burials from?
I wouldn't mind seeing if I could find where celias parents were buried if possible.
James Callaghan died Jan 1843 Loughborough.
Catherine Flannigan died Jul 1874 Leicester.
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The Paupers Index has the following admissions & discharges, which may not be connected to your family:
1 Jul 1873: Ann, Christopher & Mary Ann Burt, Roman Catholic
12 Sep 1873: Mary Ann Burt, Imbecile
26 Feb 1876: John Burt, Church of England (Discharged 16 Mar)
19 Aug 1876: John Burt, Roman Catholic
14 Dec 1878: Margaret & Rosanna Burt, CofE (Discharged 18 Dec)
On 12 Dec 1881 a Mary Burt was adopted by Mrs Greaves, 27 Southampton St
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You mention that you have access to FindMyPast, and I see there is a newspaper report dated 22 Sep 1874 (Leicester Daily Post) about a Celia Burt neglecting to maintain her child, whereby it became chargeable to the Union. Celia was said to have been drinking and was sentenced to 21 days hard labour.
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Thank you, I’ll certainly take a look at that newspaper.
I recognise most of them names as siblings to my Burts. My 3rd grt grandfather is Christopher Burt so most probably the one mentioned in 1873, he was born 1867.
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I should have mentioned that the July 1873 entries are listed several times with different page numbers, so Mary Ann & Ann might possibly be the same person.
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March 1874
Celia was sent to prison for one month for neglect. Mentions her three children were in the Workhouse including baby. Later though she says she couldn’t maintain four children but willing to maintain two.
Do you have Charlotte and Mary Ann in 1881?
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I don't have Charlotte in 1881, In 1884 she marries Thomas Green.
I don't have Mary Ann either. In 1891 she could be the Mary Bert who is a lodger with the Nicholls family in Leicester Andrews Street. There is an 1881 census for a Mary J Bert born abt 1863 but his lists birthplace as Little Dalby so not her I think.
Although Jomot said that a Mary Burt was adopted by a Mrs Greaves Dec 1881 so depending when census was taken that year she might be under Greaves if changed name? Although I think censuses were taken earlier in the year.
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I saw some marriages yesterday - Charlotte and Christopher.
There is one for a Mary Ann Burt 24 yrs in 1893. Her Father is John Thomas :-\
I was thinking that the boys might have been left in the Workhouse and the girls stayed with their mother maybe but I could find no evidence.
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1881 3161/57/24
Agnes and Isaac Greaves are at 27 Southampton Street with a 2 yr old child Clara. I think Agnes might have been Clarke.
Mary Ann doesn’t seem to be with them in 1881 or 1891.
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I notice 2 Mary Ann Burts born around the same time.
Mary Ann Burt born 1871 Grantham to John Burt and Rebecca Marston? GRO lists mothers maiden as Marston.
Mary Ann Burt born 1869 to Thomas Burt and Celia Callaghan
The one who marries 1893 must be the one bapt to John and Rebecca as she lists father as deceased and a John Thomas Burt was buried 1897 Grantham.
John Birt and Rebecca Marston marry 1864 Grantham.
This Mary could be the one living with the Nichols as she goes onto marry one.
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Scrap that, I've realised I've got dates confused in terms of Death to what she wrote on marriage.
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I have a query regarding 'described as an orphan, roman catholic' would this religion be what was instilled in them by an orphanage/workhouse or would this refer to the family's personal religion?
As my Callaghans seem to be going between the two which apparently was unusual. I have Celia's mother Catherine as baptised Roman Catholic but the two baptisms for celias siblings mary and david in Ireland have them as baptised Anglican, so just wondered.
May I ask was it on a CD from where you got those burials from?
I wouldn't mind seeing if I could find where celias parents were buried if possible.
James Callaghan died Jan 1843 Loughborough.
Catherine Flannigan died Jul 1874 Leicester.
Afternoon :)
Your wish is my command etc etc --
plot uS 1039 at Welford Road:
HINCK --- AUG 10 1874 STBN UPPER CHARLES STREET SAINT GEORGE CHILD OF EMMA
FLANNIGAN CATHERINE AUG 10 1874 age 71 ABBEY STREET SAINT MARGARET
FOSTER ANN MAY 17 1890 age 40 LEICESTER BOROUGH ASYLUM HUMBERSTONE
WILLS LAURA AUG 18 1898 age 3WKS OXFORD STREET LEICESTER
This info is from the CD of burials at welford Road. The info regarding the workhouse was from the FHS poor law CD.
They would not have been assigned RC by the workhouse - in fact they were in quite a small minority there, most were Anglican. Their being RC would fit in with their cemetery plots - both graves are in the Unconsecrated part of the graveyard, the Consecrated part being for Anglican burials (I'm not sure about the non-conformists).
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Found a couple of baptisms for the children on my disc
Leicester, Holy Cross Priory Roman Catholic
Born 25-Aug 1861
Bap 22-Sep 1861 Burt Charlotte Catherine
Thomas Cecilia Calaghan
Born 10-Nov 1863
Bap 22-Nov 1863
Burt John Thomas
Thomas Cecilia Flanigan
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If you search for Charlotte in the newspapers
Leicester Chronicle 31 July 1875
Annie Mcgarry assaults Betsy Gibbs
Charlotte is corroborating her mother's evidence
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I can't access the full article, but I've just noticed that the 1874 report of Celia (Cecilia, in this report) neglecting her children, refers to her as an "unmarried female". I think she was actually a widow? It seems a little harsh!
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Thanks for that Willsy, Ill give that a look. Funnily enough before I had corrected my tree I had Betsy Gibbs as my 3rd grt grandmother. I had her as my grt nan Doris's grandmother but on finding that I had my Doris's burial wrong which gave her a different birth date, on finding the correct family it turned out Celia Callaghan is her grt nan.
I think I'm confused a little.
Is the first baptism showing a Charlotte Catherine Burt daughter of Thomas Burt and Celia Callaghan and the 2nd showing John Thomas Burt son of Thomas Burt and Celia Flanigan?
Yes a bit odd they say she is unmarried, I noticed in 1875 they refer to her as 'Mrs Burt' so indicating she was or is married.
I wonder why there seems to be no burial for her, Unless the record got destroyed or its been transcribed wrong.
I was thinking about possibilities and at a long shot, I was thinking maybe she could have gone to Ireland. She was of Full Irish stock and must have had parents siblings and cousins in Ireland so could have gone over there but bit of a long shot.
Thank you Annie for listing those other burials for me, Much appreciated :)