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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => West Lothian (Linlithgowshire) => Topic started by: whitej on Sunday 06 May 18 08:07 BST (UK)
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My great-grandfather died in Linlithgow in November 1897 aged 65. Buried in Linlithgow cemetery. I think he may have died in Poorhouse there as death certificate signed by official at PH.
His parents were James and Margaret McGovern - not sure about McGovern not a name we know in family.
Looking for any help re burial place or where Poorhouse record may be kept?
thank you
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Find my past has some records for Linlithgowshire poorhouse for a John Crawford you might want to check
Rosie
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OK Rosie thank you.
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John Crawford died in 1897 and seems to have been buried by Poorhouse. He lies in Section H of Linlithgow cemetery.
Anyone with local knowledge know if this was common ground or would he be individually buried?
thanks
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I have the WLFHS CDs and have had a look for who was buried with John Crawford. It does look like a common grave used by the poorhouse as there are 9 unrelated individuals whose residence is given as poorhouse buried there. Some of the cemeteries do say if the grave is common or private but there is no indication for this grave.
Eric
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thanks Eric much obliged. I sent you a PM.
J
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I have now been able to view the records of John during his stay at Linlithgow Poorhouse in 1897. Thanks to other people's help too.
He is buried in a plot owned by Poorhouse. The informant on the death certificate is a Poorhouse employee.
The parents given on death certificate are James Crawford and Margaret McGovern. I can find no trace of their marriage or other children.
The parents names are not mentioned in Poorhouse records - how could the informant have known the names? This got me wondering if the names are accurate.
James
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Where was John Crawford born and his occupation and was he married ? ..Do you have him on any census records which might help us find him with his parents ..
Rosie
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Hi Rosie
Died age 65 in 1897 so born circa 1832 in Glasgow. Occupation slater. I found him in 1871, 1881 only in Kilsyth and Alloa with wife and children.
I cannot find him in 1841,51 or 61 and 1891.
Can we trust parents names on death cert?
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Would this be John Crawford on the 1871 census at Finlays Street Kilsyth occupation slater
And it's always best to check for the right parent's if possible as wrong names could be given
When did he marry ?
Rosie
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Yes they seem to be in Kilsyth.
he didn't marry. Children John born 1867 and others have a date and place of marriage but I have never found it.
Marriage place always Glasgow
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I'd hoped to find him in 1861... but no joy so far
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Is this him in 1861?
In Dumfries.
John Crawford, 25, Slater, born King, Newton Moven's of Meares
Margaret Crawford, 23, born Annan
Elisabeth Crawford, 4, born Annan
Ann Crawford, 10mths, born Dumfries
And following this one not the one in Kilsyth in 1871, so more than 1 John c 1834+/- 2yrs born Glasgow who is a Slater.
1871 still in Dumfries;
John Crawford, 37, Slater, born Lanark, Glasgow
Margaret Allison Crawford 34
Elisabeth Crawford 14
Annie Crawford 11
Margaret Crawford 9
Joseph Crawford 6
Mary Crawford 8
What child of John are you descended from?
When.where were they born?
As Rosie asked who/when did John marry?
Trish :)
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I don't think the Dumfries people are those i am after. John's partner was Mary and children John, James and Margaret. last two dead before 1894 both in Edinburgh.
thanks for posting :)
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Yes i though that was the wrong one.
So this Family 1881
John Crawford 46
John Crawford 14
Mary Crawford 36
Margaret Crawford 3
Who was Mary, when did they marry?.
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Mary was his partner - they never married - or should I say there appears to be no marriage certificate. Her name Mary Morrison.
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Sorry just realised you had answered my Marriage question earlier and I missed it :-[
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Just so others can see 1871 census
John Crawford birth year of 1836 ? occupation stater as transcribed on ancestry head born Glasgow
Address Finlays Street Kilsyth Stirlingshire
Mary Crawford age 27 born Glasgow this age probably wrong slater's wife
John Crawford age 3 born Glasgow
James Crawford age 1 born Glasgow
Niley Crawford age 16 born Glasgow down as daughter ???
Birth for James Crawford 8/11/1868
Hutcheson Glasgow
Father John Crawford
Mother Mary Morrison
Rosie
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yes.... Niley is Mary's illegitimate daughter born Lucy in 1861. Father a George Mathieson
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I can find a Marriage for a James Crawford/Margaret Govan but its 16 July 1858, Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh, Midlothian.
So much too late.
Back later better get some Dinner on!
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There is a John Crawford born 1835 Glasgow age 26 occupation nailer
Lodging with a Margaret Monaghan age 64 born Ireland and her family 34,Walkinshaw Street Johnstone Paisley
Might be a possibility on the 1861 ...But no more further with finding the right parent's I'm afraid ???
Rosie
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Thanks to you both.
I saw that to Rosie - is a nailer similar to a slater in terms of occupation? Maybe he started makings nails then moved on to being a slater. A slater uses nail!!
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found them in 1851
CRAWFORD John Head M M 50 Nailer (Journeyman) Ireland - -
CRAWFORD Elizabeth Wife M F 35 House Wife Ireland - -
CRAWFORD John Son U M 16 Nailer (Apprentice) Lanarkshire - Glasgow
CRAWFORD Mary Dau U F 14 Servant Lanarkshire - Glasgow
CRAWFORD Margaret Dau U F 12 At Home (Servant) Lanarkshire - Glasgow
CRAWFORD Thomas Son U M 11 Errand Boy Lanarkshire - Glasgow
Page: 615/14 CRAWFORD Peter Son U M 9 At School Lanarkshire - Glasgow
CRAWFORD Sarah Dau - F 4 At School Lanarkshire - Glasgow
CRAWFORD Elizabeth Dau - F 1 Lanarkshire - Glasgow
remember what I said in earlier post about parents names on John's death certificate being wrong?
maybe this is them!! but not taking it for granted.
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John Crawford, 25, Slater, born King, Newton Moven's of Meares
That looks really bizarre. Can you post an extract from the image so we can see if we can make sense of the birthplace?
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Maybe John b c 1832 was illegitimate? Could he be in an earlier census as John McGovern?
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good point Forfarian will try this too. Thank you
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Yes they seem to be in Kilsyth.
he didn't marry. Children John born 1867 and others have a date and place of marriage but I have never found it.
Marriage place always Glasgow
What date and place did it give for the parents marriage ?
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Glasgow always the place and 1866 or 1867 is year given on childrens birth certs.
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Glasgow always the place and 1866 or 1867 is year given on childrens birth certs.
Interesting, because it was supposed to be the actual day, not just the year, that was on birth certificates.
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sorry they do have actual dates but no dates are the same. Shall I post actual date?
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Feb 4th 1867 for John born 1867
Jan 19th 1867 FOR James born 1869
Jan 19th 1866 for Margaret born 1878
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Ah. Well, if they give different dates on each birth certificate is does give credence to the suggestion that they are simply inventing a marriage that never actually took place.
Interestingly, I see that the IGI lists another child, Margaret, born 3 May 1872 in Glasgow Bridgeton, father's name given as John James McEwan Crawford, mother Mary Morrison. I wonder where the 'James McEwan' came from?
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I have my doubts about the 1872 birth Forfarian simply because of the James McEwan naming. Is the father a slater by occupation?
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Not having much luck finding him on the 1891 Census where was Mary and the rest of the family
Did the poor relief records not give a last address for him
Rosie
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No last address or any address Rosie. It does say "charge to Bathgate" I had a look at 1891 for Bathgate but no John Crawford of that age
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Re the Crawford family in Bridgeton - are they in 1871 census John, Mary, John b1867, James b 1869?and of course dad John being a slater.
I accept this could clash with 1871 Kilsyth entry
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It does say "charge to Bathgate"
Now that is a definite lead.
How it worked was that if you were desperate enough you applied for relief to the parochial board for the parish where you were living. The parochial board would make some pretty detailed enquiries, because if you didn't have 'settlement' in their parish they could get the parish where you did have 'settlement' to reimburse them for whatever they paid out for your relief.
You acquired 'settlement' either by being born in the parish, or having lived there continuously for five years (later reduced to three IIRC). Or by marrying a man with 'settlement' in the parish, but that obviously doesn't apply to John Crawford.
Often several parishes would get together and build a joint poorhouse that was administered by the parochial board of the parsih where it was situated.
So it looks to me as if John Crawford was living in Linlithgow or elsewhere in West Lothian when he became unable to support himself. He was admitted to the poorhouse in Linlithgow at the expense of the Bathgate parochial board, so he must have lived in Bathgate for long enough to have acquired 'settlement'.
The point is that the Bathgate parochial board would have tried their utmost to avoid admitting that he had acquired 'settlement' there, because they would have wanted to avoid paying Linlithgow for him if at all possible. Therefore they would have compiled, and as far as possible checked, a dossier on where he was born, who his parents were, what his religion was, who his dependants were, and where he had lived and for how long at each address.
If they accepted responsibility for him, there should have been not only an Application for Relief, but also a listing in the Register of Poor for Bathgate.
So I recommend that your next move should be to try again to find out if the Bathgate parochial board records of applications for relief and their Register of Poor for the relevant years have survived, and if so get a copy of what those documents say about John Crawford. Don't be put off by an age being wrong - it could be a clerical error, or John himself lying about his age.
It would also be worth investigating whether or not Mary Morrison also applied for relief and is in the Register of Poor for Linlithgow and/or Bathgate, either as Mary Morrison or as Mary Crawford.
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Very interesting and helpful Forfarian thank you.
I found this quickly but will pursue - might be out of luck with dates!
West Lothian
(see Midlothian for parishes formerly in that county)
Various Linlithgow Sheriff Court: Poor roll orders 1879-1944 (NRS ref. SC41/84/1)
Institutions Linlithgow Combination Poorhouse (later St. Michael’s Hospital): Registers of inmates 1894-1924; Admissions, discharges
and deaths 1924-145; Register of lunatics (inc. whether private or pauper) 1859-1952; Register of discharges and removals
1859-1954; Register of deaths 1959-1949; Medical Officers sick register 1892-1955; Register of deaths and disposal of
remains 1903-1955; Roll of sick 1907-1944 (NHS Lothian Health Services Archive ref. LHB68/1/1-7 - records up to 1909
have been photographed for transcription by West Lothian Family History Society)
Bathgate Record of Applications 1926-1961 (West Lothian Council Archives ref. BB/12/1)
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I found this quickly but will pursue - might be out of luck with dates!
Might indeed - if that's the only surviving volume for Bathgate you might be out of luck :(