RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Warwickshire => Topic started by: Greenvale on Sunday 06 May 18 10:11 BST (UK)
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I have just discovered that my mom had 2 step siblings, children of her father from a previous marrriage. One of them is Rose Hannah Webb who was born in 1916 to Thomas James Webb(1886 - 1949) and Rose Hannah Askey( 1890 = 1921). I have searched for for marriages for Rose W. and am awaiting a certificate to confirm a possible marriage. The other sibling is Thomas James Webb (1916 - 1943).
The family is listed in the 1939 Register and both Thomas James Webbs are listed alongside other family members including my mom, but there are two closed entries on there, one of which could be Rose Hannah Webb. Looking into how to get them opened I see I have to have supply proof of death i.e. a death certificate but if I don't know who they are how can I do this?
As a by the way to this my mom often talked about her life at this address and her family including step family from her mom's side but never mentioned a Thomas or Rose although at least one of them lived at the same address as her. Very strange.
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Hi
Rose has a FreeBMD birth reg of Aston Dec 1915
Thomas has a FreeBMD birth reg of Birmingham Mar 1917
Alice has a FreeBMD birth reg of Aston Mar 1919
Ray
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Thanks Ray, but I already know their birth dates. I suppose my real question is regarding the 1939 register. I know I cant request look ups on Rootschat but this isn't a problem as I can access it myself, it's just trying to find out about the 2 blacked out entries for that address thats frustrating me.
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I have searched for for marriages for Rose W. and am awaiting a certificate to confirm a possible marriage.
What year is the marriage you have sent for? If before 1939 then she is likely living with her husband somewhere so not one of the blacked out entries.
Have you tried looking for a death under this possible married name?
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Hi Millipede, The marriage is in September 1939
Birmingham 3rd qutr Vol 6d page 1367.
I searched for a death cert under her possible married name to no avail although there is one for her possible spouse.
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Hi a possibility of a remarriage or perhaps that of a daughter, a marriage March qtr 1960 Birmingham 9c 901 to a Cooke, a possible female child b Dec qtr 1961 Birmingham mmn Webb
Keyboard86
PS no daughter Rose H located surname Clason mmn Webb .
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Thanks for your answer but I think the possible child is unlikely given her age (bn. in 1915) but hey who knows 46 is not too old to have children.
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Rose has a FreeBMD birth reg of Aston Dec 1915
Thomas has a FreeBMD birth reg of Birmingham Mar 1917
If those are their dates of birth, then both should now be open on the 1939 register as they are opened 100years and a day after birth.
Contact FindMyPast and query it.
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Thanks Groom, I'll contact them.
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Thanks for your answer but I think the possible child is unlikely given her age (bn. in 1915) but hey who knows 46 is not too old to have children.
No problem, so who was the Rose H Clason who married in 1960 a few years after the possible death of her first husband aged 42?
Keyboard86
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Keyboard88 , You may well be right and there was a remarriage and a possible child from this marriage. Further investigation required but I think after I get the copy of the original marriage cert from GRO.
Thanks again for your research.
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Keyboard88 , You may well be right and there was a remarriage and a possible child from this marriage. Further investigation required but I think after I get the copy of the original marriage cert from GRO.
Thanks again for your research.
The possible daughter b 1961 looks to have married Dec qtr 1980 Birmingham.
Please come back with any outcome of the possible marriage for either Rose to Thomas R Clason or remarriage to a Cooke?!
Keyboard86
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Hi again, a Thomas R Clason b 2nd October 1915 is living at 7, Mabel Terrace, Clark Street, Birmingham in 1939, births 1939 to 1953 Birmingham Clason/Webb
Keyboard86
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OK had another look, their is a birth of a Rose H Webb 1920 Birmingham mmn Plant, it is her I believe who married Thomas R Clason and then a James T Cooke, this Rose dies as Rose Hannah Cooke b 29th January 1920 in January 2005 Birmingham.
A James Thomas Cooke born 11th July 1918 died Sept qtr 1981 Birmingham aged 63
Keyboard86
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OK had another look, their is a birth of a Rose H Webb 1920 Birmingham mmn Plant, it is her I believe who married Thomas R Clason and then a James T Cooke, this Rose dies as Rose Hannah Cooke b 29th January 1920 in January 2005 Birmingham.
A James Thomas Cooke born 11th July 1918 died Sept qtr 1981 Birmingham aged 63
Keyboard86
So not the correct family as wrong mother's maiden name? Back to the drawing board!
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Keyboard, thanks again for your diligent research. It seems I may be looking at the wrong family then. The marriage cert should confirm this and as soon as it arrives I will let everyone know.
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Thanks Ray, but I already know their birth dates.
Could you give the birth date for Rose Hannah Webb, please?
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When I said date I actually meant a GRO index giving quarter and year which was April 1886 for Rose Hannah
Thomas James Webb dob23 feb 1886.
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I meant this Rose:
Rose has a FreeBMD birth reg of Aston Dec 1915
If she dies from the June quarter 1969 onwards her exact date of birth, if known, should be on her death certificate, so you can search for her without knowing any new surname.
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While one can guess who might be the closed records, sometimes the guess is way off the mark because, don't forget, in some areas families will already have taken in evacuees. Additionally, anybody who married and moved/died abroad is likely to show as a closed record as the British records won't have been updated with the fact they died.
One household in my tree shows an evacuee's name - another household doesn't show my aunt (who died in the late 1960s) as she married in 1945 and went to America to live with her new husband.
So, it is possible to "assume" you know who might be a closed record.... but, just bear in mind you could also be wrong.
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Sorry Chempat, with both children having the same names as their parents my mind's getting a little bit scrambled.
So a search of deaths from the 3rd quarter 1969 onwards seems to be the next task then.
StanleysChesterton thanks for your input. I have no idea whose entries have been closed and I'm not assuming it to be my missing aunt. As there were more than a dozen children from my grandparents marriage and previous marriages the closed entries could be anyones, including anyone of my aunts, step aunts, uncles, step uncles numerous elder step cousins who may have been at the address for whatever reason. There's the frustration, not knowing whose entries are closed.
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There is a tree on Anc T R Clason / R H Webb (b1920d1/1/2005) with 7 children
confirming wrong RHW
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Sorry what does RHW mean please?
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Sorry = Rose Hannah Webb
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Thanks Ray
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There is a tree on Anc T R Clason / R H Webb (b1920d1/1/2005) with 7 children
confirming wrong RHW
So if this is indeed correct, what happened to Rose H ( Hannah ) Webb post 1915?
Keyboard86
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Hi again, did your Rose Hannah/Roseannah Webb have any relatives called Charles Henry Askey/Violet Askey as she is with them on a Midlands electoral register at 8, Barton Street in 1945 and1950?
Keyboard86
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There is also a Thomas J and Louisa Webb in 1944 Electoral Roll
with no others listed.
So T J jnr, Edna, Edwin ( plus blacked-out other 2 ) all gone from family home
between 1939 and 1944.
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Keyboard 88.
Although I haven't yet investigated Rose Hannah's forebears on her mother's side it could well be that they are her uncle and aunt or even grandparents. Her mother's maiden name was Askey.
Ray.
Thomas and Louisa are my grandparents. Edna is my mother. Edwin is my (step) uncle. By 1944 Edna and Edwin were each married and Thomas James jnr died in 1943.
Thanks to both of you for your efforts.
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Hi again, check out a possible marriage of a Roseannah Webb to a Wood, as this one is living with Askey's at 8, Barton Street in 1939?
Keyboard86
:) Why do you keep calling me Keyboard88?!
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Just doing a search on Charles Henry Askey at the moment.
Marriage search to Wood next task ;D
Thanks for tip
Sorry about name I know it's 86 but with my bad eyesight..........you can imagine why this search is taking so log ;D ;D ;D
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Their is a definite link with the Askey surname, but the Roseannah on 1939 married 1954, who died June qtr 1981 Birmingham as Roseannah Wood was born 8th September 1916 aged 64
Keyboard86
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Possible marriage in 1954.
Rose H Webb to a Norman E Wood.
Jul-Aug-Sep 1954 Vol 9c Page 368
About to order certificate.
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Possible marriage in 1954.
Rose H Webb to a Norman E Wood.
Jul-Aug-Sep 1954 Vol 9c Page 368
About to order certificate.
:) Now find a birth 8th September 1916 for her!
Keyboard86
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Re: Edna et al
Yup definitely MADDENing when you don't spot it straight away?
;D
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Well done Ray ;D ;D ;D
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Have found Rose Hannah on an Ancestry tree. Together with a lot of Askeys including her mother and uncles and aunts. There is a a Charles Henry Askey on there, her uncle, but he was born in 1894 and died in 1917 so it's looking unlikely that the Bagot Street address is where my Rose Hannah located in 1939. If I order the marriage cert. it should confirm this.
I also don't think that Rose was born in 1916 I think she was born in 1915.
There is a Charles Askey born in 1894 on the 1939 register but no mention of Rose there.
Not easy this family history lark is it? :)
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I also don't think that Rose was born in 1916 I think she was born in 1915.
Didn't Ray give you her birth in one of the first answers?
Rose has a FreeBMD birth reg of Aston Dec 1915
So she was born October, November or December 1915 or possibly September and registered the next quarter.
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Groom yes you're right.
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This does not tie up with the Roseannah on 1939/45/50 or marriage/death, who is therefore the Violet Askey family in 1911 headed by a Charles 44 and Rosannah 44 Birmingham Paddington Street?
The Rose H Webb who died in Birmingham 1921 was b c 1886/7 not 1890 as post 1, same approx year of a possible with this family above?
So I think you need the 1915 birth certificate mmn Askey rather than any marriage certificate?
Oh I forgot to ask you, you do have full details of the marriage of Thomas James Webb to Rose H Askey 1915 don't you?
Keyboard86
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Hi Keyboard, sorry to delay replying to your post (Garden duties!)
As far as I can make out the 1939 entry for Bagot Street is the home address of Rose Hannah Webb's grandfather. Violet Askey is his daughter, Rose's aunt.
This Violet and Charles are the same ones on the 1911 census at Paddington street.
Your suggestion of ordering a (1915) Birth cert. for Rose is a sensible one but I think I will still go head with the marriage cert. for her and Norman Wood.
As for the marriage between Thos J. Webb and Rose Hannah Askey, without ordering a marriage cert I am as sure as I can be using other reference points.
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Hi again, on a 1955 Midlands Electoral Register at 8, Barton Street were Violet Askey, Norman E Wood and Rose H Wood
Keyboard86
PS wonder why Rose H was so close to her Aunt?
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HI. Yes got that one. I think at this stage it's down to the answers I get from the certs. I've applied for birth and marriage certs and they will take about a week to arrive. As soon as get them I'll let everyone know.
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:) Excellent, so wonder why Rose H /Rosannah believed she was born 8th September 1916 in 1939 and at death?!
Keyboard86
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:) Excellent, so wonder why Rose H /Rosannah believed she was born 8th September 1916 in 1939 and at death?!
Keyboard86
I don't think people were quite so worried about age as we are - they didn't constantly have to put their date of birth on forms etc. I expect somewhere along the way a year got lost. My grandmother was a year older than she thought - we only discovered that when my uncle found her birth certificate before he registered her death aged 97, as we thought, but actually 98. We think that may have been because she was born just 3 months after her parents married, so perhaps they tried to hide that from her.
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:) Excellent, so wonder why Rose H /Rosannah believed she was born 8th September 1916 in 1939 and at death?!
Keyboard86
Although 'transcription' of Rosannah shows birth year as 1916 it's an error - look at original page.
Annette
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:) Birth/1939 or death?
Keyboard86
PS sorry Groom did not spot your reply, so is it possible that Rose H was told she was born a year later, although looking at original 1939 it is 8/9/1915 not 1916, but 8/9/1916 at death?
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UPDATE:
Today I received a Birth Certificate for Rose Hannah Webb which confirms her parents as Thomas James Webb (My grandfather) and Rose Hannah Webb formerly Askey, who was the informant and was present at the birth. DOB 8th Sept. 1915.
Also received today was a Marriage Cert. confirming marriage between Norman Ernest Wood, aged 46 years old (Previous marriage dissolved) and Rose Hannah Webb, aged 38 years old (Spinster) Fathers name Thomas James Webb, deceased. The marriage was at Erdington, Birmingham parish church on the 18th September 1954. One of the witnesses was a S. Askey whom I think to be her uncle, Samuel Askey.
I am now busy searching through electoral rolls for addresses and dates of death for Ernest and Rose and I will post anything I find. My thanks to everyone who has replied to my posts and please feel free to contribute further.
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O.K. Here it is, the last piece of the puzzle. Today I received a death Cert. for Rosehannah which confirms she is the one I've been searching for.
Her date of birth on this cert. is 8th Sept 1916 but this is obviously a mistake made by the informant, who turned out to be her Aunt Lillian.
My thanks to everyone who contributed very good information and advice.
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Thank you for letting us know the result - good outcome.
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The only thing left unexplained is why no-one in the family, including my own mom, ever mentioned her and her brother and yet her full sister, my aunt Alice, who also never spoke of her, was visited on a regular basis.
Sadly there's no-one alive now whom I know and could possibly supply me with the answer.
Ah well, perhaps it's best the secret never comes out ;D