RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Rufous Treecreeper on Monday 07 May 18 14:48 BST (UK)
-
Hi :)
I'm hoping someone here can shed some light on an old record of a burial.
The record came from a microfiche titled "Index to Burials (Old Records) fiche, Pre 1856 Burials Index, NSW Registry of Births Deaths and Marriages, 48X (a) 11 of 12 Tulk to Wyke".
On this microfiche was the following entry:-
Ward, Ann, age blank, year 1838, entry number 432, volume 128.
I have been in contact with NSW Registry about this record. They gave me no information on the microfiche source document. I followed their instructions and sent them all the information I had regarding the death and they did a search but found no death.
Does anyone know more about this Pre 1856 burial resource? Is it still available to search somewhere?
Information written by Anna's (yes Anna rather than Ann), sister said Anna Ward nee Best died on 21 Oct 1838 in Sydney. She went to Sydney from Hobart after being released from prison there in mid 1837. Another mystery is why she was sent to Sydney and not back to her family at Longford (in Tas). She had no family in Sydney.
Anything about her time in Sydney would be great to find at this point. Many years of nothing now! :P
Thanks, Marlene
-
The online indexes have the year as 1836.
WARD, ANN
432/1836 V1836432 128
Debra :)
-
I wonder if this is the same Anna WARD ... this lass seems to have been charged as an accomplice but then gave evidence in a murder trial in 1837 in Hobart, and so was pardoned by the court. Perhaps if that's the same Anna, it may explain why she moved away from VDL.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4172149 5 May 1837 Hobart Town Courier
Supreme Court Criminal Sittings.
Also, I notice that Ancestry has the burial indexed as Ann WARD, ref V1836132 128 ... The indexes all seem to get the Volume as 128, but there's some confusion over which year and which line number. I am sure we can all appreciate the transcription mis-reads when we realise that the Pioneer index was prepared in the 1930s and it was the first time such an index had been available to the Reg General's office ... it was prepared by SAG volunteers, from the original handwritten records that had been used for decades ... thumb marks, bleed throughs, torn or missing pages etc. It is easy to mis-read 1836 and 1838, and it is easy to mis-read 132 and 432 and vice versa.
I am disappointed that the current BDM response seems to indicate that they are no longer trained to consider that once they have the surname, decade and the volume number, they are 'this close' to actually solving the dilemma .... Their own online index clearly shows that there's NO line 432 for any 1838 burials, but with just a refresh and one change to the LAST digit in the year ... (so within the same decade) there's the entry that Debra has posted.
My non RChat relatives include a retired senior officer from NSW BDM. He has phoned me and asked me to apologise to our OP for the in-efficiency of the current system. I keep asking him to join RChat, but he declines. ::)
ADD the Volumes were bound up in around 1912. ::)
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/about-us/history-of-the-registry.aspx
JM
-
If considering ordering the NSW BDM document, it is sensible to take the official transcription rather than ordering direct from NSW BDM as it is an Early Church Record and NSW BDM will send a typed up document anyways.
If ordering an official transcription, please do let them know that if this is your lass, the year cannot be 1836, as she was on trial in 1837. The official transcription will give the burial details but little else of family history value. With the cemetery details then it is a look up to find if there's a headstone for further info. :)
JM
-
Thank you Debra and JM :)
I really appreciate your responses.
Even though the burial can't be my Anna's I'm very glad to just know it :)
Also JM your information was just what I was looking for. Thank you for taking the time to explain it to me :D
Yes, that is my Anna involved in the murder. She was going to be tried as an accessory to the but when the trial came there was no one available to prosecute the case so she was let go.
Any ideas on where she would've been sent to in Sydney? Or would they have just dumped her there?
Many thanks again,
Marlene
-
I think the newspaper notes she was given a pardon by the court, if so, perhaps that pardon had conditions ... eg removing her from VDL ... or perhaps she chose to remove herself from VDL because of any adverse community response to her giving Crown Witness instead of being prosecuted.
JM
-
Whoops, just read your latest JM.
Bit slow here ::) of course I should double check the source document :-[
How do I go about ordering the official transcription?
Considering the year question the month and day of burial may be the best evidence to decide whether the year was misread as 1836.
Marlene :)
-
A letter written by her father at the time says she was given the choice of going home or to Sydney. She was 17 and a bit stroppy (reading between the lines), so choose Sydney :P
Marlene
-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,300394.0.html
:D
JM
-
That's a wonderful photo of a happy lady in your avatar, 1909 - 2017 ... similar dates to a wonderful lady who lived in rural NSW, and was also a happy lady, a church organist, violinist, a fantastic mother, and much respected by everyone who knew her, including the school friends of her youngest daughter.
JM :)
-
Thanks JM, for your kind words. It sounds like the two were cut from the same cloth :) The photo for my avatar was taken at her 100th birthday party. She was the best.
Thanks also for the link for transcription agents. I've used Marilyn Rowan before and was happy with the result, so I'll see what she can find for me.
Marlene :)
-
Whoops, just read your latest JM.
Bit slow here ::) of course I should double check the source document :-[
How do I go about ordering the official transcription?
Considering the year question the month and day of burial may be the best evidence to decide whether the year was misread as 1836.
Marlene :)
Where are you in Australia? Most state libraries, together with many local libraries in NSW had copies of the early church records on microfilm. They are also available at the NSW archives. Quite some time since I checked them, where they can be found may have changed.
The code on the index provides the link to the location of the record. If the year is wrong you should be able to scroll through the records searching for your lady. They are grouped by parish.
From the AVRI (LDS) the church for the burial is given as Sydney, St Marys Roman Catholic.
-
[.....
Where are you in Australia? Most state libraries, together with many local libraries in NSW had copies of the early church records on microfilm. They are also available at the NSW archives. Quite some time since I checked them, where they can be found may have changed.
The code on the index provides the link to the location of the record. If the year is wrong you should be able to scroll through the records searching for your lady. They are grouped by parish.
From the AVRI (LDS) the church for the burial is given as Sydney, St Marys Roman Catholic.
The burial for Ann WARD is indexed on several sets as being in Volume 128.
Here is the live link to the NSW State Archives re their BDM holdings
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/births-deaths-and-marriages-registers-1787-1856#Notes_on_the_records
I quote from that
The Registers which have been filmed by The Genealogical Society of Utah and which are listed in this guide comprise the original 120 volumes of pre-1856 records described above as well as the following:
Volumes 121-3 Supplementary Registers - Baptisms, Burials and Marriages, 1827-1901
[5/4219] Applications for marriage licences, 1836-44
[5/4221] Church of England Baptisms and Burials, 1850-53
[5/3841] Church of England Baptisms and Burials, 1833-37
Please note that because these microfilms relate to Registry volume numbers 1 to 123 only, not all of the official pre-1856 entries for baptisms, burials and marriages are included. For entries located in Registry volume numbers 124 to 162, the Registry of Births, Deaths and Marriages, which still holds these records, should be contacted.
All of the original volumes filmed and listed in this guide are held at State Records, but they are in very poor physical condition and are therefore still restricted and unavailable for consultation.
As I recall, Volume 128 is via NSW BDM and not via NSW State Archives or State Library ... when I last accessed the ARK-KIT for BDMs, I did not find anything other than from the list I note in the above quote. As far as I am aware, Vol. 128 is not located on the reels 5001-5048 and so is NOT included in the KIT reels in the NSW State Library. If you have more recent knowledge, I am happy to stand corrected. https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/archives-resources-kit-ark
Re the AVRI note … does your resource show the year? And does it show if it is a transmitted record, if so, from which RC clergyman/parish?
JM
-
I came here thinking this was a site to exchange information we have gleaned over the years - responding to page long posts is not part of the deal.
I'm sure the OP is happy to check sources and details as she can. Might even try going to the source being the Church I mentioned.
-
Our OP asked a question about a specific single entry in Volume 128 of NSW BDM's Early Church Records.
Around 24 % of the Volumes of Early Church Records that are in the NSWBDM holdings are NOT included in the NSW State Archives ARK kits. And, of course NOT ALL the baptisms, burials, weddings conducted by clergy in NSW prior to the establishment of the civil registration processes are actually recorded in the NSW BDM's holdings.
Westward has referred to the AVRI and that in that resource, the church for that burial is given there as Sydney, St Marys Roman Catholic. I again ask if Westward would type up the relevant details based on that resource he/she has accessed, particularly the date of the burial, also the clergy's name, and if that particular entry is noted as a transmitted entry, afterall, St Marys was and still is the Diocese.
I came here thinking this was a site to exchange information we have gleaned over the years - responding to page long posts is not part of the deal.
I'm sure the OP is happy to check sources and details as she can. Might even try going to the source being the Church I mentioned.
JM
-
Hi there,
I have added to your earlier thread :) fingers crossed :)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=422453.0
JM
-
Before I wrote this I had to wipe the egg off my face to see the computer screen :-[
What happened was that I remembered some information that a fellow family researcher gave me a while ago. He said he had Anna Ward's death certificate and posted it to me with a heap of other stuff. When I got it I was disappointed to see it was dated before 1837 and so couldn't possibly 'our' Anna and so forgot about it.
Well you've probably guessed already but it is the Number 432, volume 128 record :-[
Name: Ann Ward
Abode: blank
Age: blank
Quality or profession: blank
When died: blank
When buried: 22nd January 1836
Where ceremony performed: Sydney
By whom the ceremony was performed: blank, St Mary's Roman Catholic
I'm really sorry if I wasted people's time but I feel like I learnt some really good information from JM. I have also cleared up the question of the date - even if I had that information here all the time to do so...
Thanks JM and everyone else too, and apologies with it,
Marlene
-
:) Don't fret :D that's fine, now to find Anna :) - able to read and write, and a young lass in Sydney Town .... she may have moved further than Sydney Town - she may have lived a long life, but simply put, it seems she failed to keep her family aware of her location ...
There's fragments of the NSW 1841 census ... alas much of Sydney Town's was lost... ::) She may have chosen to become known by another name... umm ... I will add her details to my list of "Missing in NSW 1825 -1850" :) If I can advance the quest, I will let you know. :D
JM
-
Sharing a thought (I have not checked Trove or any of my offline resources,) :
NSW BDM online has a burial indexed :
1838
Vol 22, line 2206
Ann SMITH, aged 18.
Vol 22 is CofE :) The online index has known flaws so don't rely on the select dates option for the day and month (yes, it will come up with 21 Oct 1838) as ANY date in 1838 will return the same reference no. from that index. ::)
ADD, so if you have patience and a comfy armchair, you could spend hours/days online at NSW BDM index using " * " for surname or other options and 1838 for year and then seek those key names out on Trove or similar .... :)
CofE burial in Sydney 1838 : likely Devonshire St Cemetery, but there were other cemeteries too.
http://www.visitsydneyaustralia.com.au/cemeteries.html
https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/34455166?q&versionId=45804926
JM
-
Thanks again JM, and I feel honoured to have Anna put on your missing persons list :)
The last definite reference I have found to her in the old letters was this written by her mother on 9 Aug 1838 - "I would see about that letter in the dead list and forward it... I hope you will not forget that letter for I have not heard from your poor sister since shee [sic] left Sidney [sic]"
Interesting that her mother says Anna 'left Sidney'. BUT it could be that her mother missed out the 'for' between 'left' and 'Sydney'. Her literacy was poor.
Regarding her death date and place, I have found amongst my papers that her father recorded her death in his Bible (I have this from a letter written by someone who had the Bible, rather than from me seeing the Bible itself). Apparently he wrote - "Anna Best died at Sydney October 21st 1838 aged 18 years 8 months".
The burial you found for Ann Smith bares checking, thank you :) as Anna may have taken up with a new bloke (she certainly did have form ;)) while there and taken his name. A marriage wouldn't have been legal as her husband was still alive.
Many thanks,
Marlene :)