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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Essex => Topic started by: MacGrigor on Monday 07 May 18 23:27 BST (UK)
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Hello,
Elizabeth was born in around 1819 in Orsett. She married twice: first to William Goddard in 1838 in Chadwell St. Mary and at Battle Bridge in 1881 to George Dudley. Her father appeared to be a Charles Smith in 1881 according to one user, and one user who viewed the 1838 marriage said the father was a John Smith. Someone once found me a baptism with a father Benjamin Smith. Elizabeth died as Elizabeth Dudley in 1903, in Chadwell St. Mary.
Can anyone clear this up for me?
Adam
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Images of the Bishop[s Transcripts for Orsett are free to view on the familysearch site Catalogue. I have been through the baptisms from 1818 to 1820 and the only baptism for an Elizabeth Smith is
19 December 1819 Elizabeth daughter of Benjamin and Rebecca Smith, abode Orsett, occupation Farrier.
Emeltom
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We did that one in April
Elizabeth Smith, born c. 1819, Orsett
There's Elizabeth Smith, bap 19 Dec 1819 at Orsett.
Parents Benjamin + Rebecca
Father a Farrier
You can see the BT here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9Q97-YSLF-89N?i=108&cat=515413
Is that the right one?
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Gaddard for Goddard on ancestry for the 81 marriage, father Charles Smith
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Yep so there's a clear discrepancy between Benjamin Smith and a Charles Smith. But only one baptism! And I'm sure someone said her first marriage gave her father as John Smith.
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I'm not sure if there are much in the way of indexes available for Orsett, you could look through those BT's for some years either side (hoping there aren't big gaps) and see if there is further Smith activity. Could Benjamin have died and Rebecca remarried? Did they move to Chadwell, or what Smiths if any were in Chadwell.
There's a Charles Smith in Chadwell St Mary in 1841, also John, with other Smiths
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQ2Z-B4Q
Is that John Smith in 41 this one in Chadwell in 1851, born Orsett?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGV4-25G
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The John Smith from 1851 would be about the same age as Elizabeth. I really don't know. It doesn't help that the surname is so popular.
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I'm not sure if there are much in the way of indexes available for Orsett, you could look through those BT's for some years either side (hoping there aren't big gaps) and see if there is further Smith activity. Could Benjamin have died and Rebecca remarried? Did they move to Chadwell, or what Smiths if any were in Chadwell.
There's a Charles Smith in Chadwell St Mary in 1841, also John, with other Smiths
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQ2Z-B4Q
Is that John Smith in 41 this one in Chadwell in 1851, born Orsett?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGV4-25G
On the 1838 marriage both William and Elizabeth's fathers are recorded as John. Could the clerk have made a mistake and John was only correct for William's father?
William and Elizabeth called their first son John William and second William (not counting Henry who was Elizabeth's illegit bapt 26 Feb 1836). Their third son was called Charles. Marriage and early baptisms have surname as Gorred/Gorrad/ Gored. But seems to become Goddard when the vicar changes. It may be that William had a strong accent or speech impediment and rev Evan Jones spelt what he thought he heard. William was from Enfield Middx, so may have had completely different accent from the locals.
The Charles Smith in Chadwell St M is in the same house as Joseph and Ann Smith and their children, but judging by the marks in the margin he and John Smith were a separate household. Could Charles be Elizabeth's father and John and Joseph her brothers?
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Well William's father was certainly John - he has two baptisms, one at the Independent Church in Ponders End and one at the C of E church in Enfield shortly afterwards.
You said you saw a baptism for Henry born 1836, is there anything on William born 1841? I think someone's looked before but I do have a pretty terrible memory.
That's certainly an interesting theory, but it's very confusing with two contradictory marriage records and no baptisms :'(
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William was baptised 21 November 1841, s/o William and Elizabeth Gored (sic) of Chadwell occ labourer. Maybe Evan Jones was a bit deaf.
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In 1841 Henry has surname Goddard and is household of Thomas and Rebecca Bray both 50. Also in household are George and Sarah Rush both 20. From 1851 Sarah Ruch was born South Ockendon. A George Rush and Sarah Gurnett married in S Ock on 16 Nov 1840. witnesses William and Elizabeth Goddard and Timothy White.
I wonder who the Brays are?
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That's great for William! Thanks. Yes, this Mr. Jones doesn't appear to have been particularly good at his job.
And yes, that is a mystery. Seeing as we know little about Elizabeth's origins, perhaps relatives on her side of the family?
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Might be Rebecca Smith as was!
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Need to find a death for Benjamin and remarriage for Rebecca then.
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Yes, that's a fair observation. So the illegitimate son was sent to stay with his grandparents. That would make sense. But is Benjamin Smith the father in view of the John/Charles Smith as suggested by the marriage records? I think the 1838 record is inherently unreliable due to the series of errors Evan Jones made while writing, making Charles Smith (from the 1881 marriage) the more likely father.
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marriage at Chadwell - Benjamin Smith bach and Rebecca Rush widow on 21 Dec 1818, so looks like George Rush is Sarah's son.
9 Oct 1831, Joseph Groves bach married Rebbeca Rush sp - They were witnesses at Elizabeth's marriage
One of the witnesses to Rebecca Rush jnrs marriage was Samuel Staines. Looking at Samuel in 1851 shows his wife Mary was born Enfield in 1818. Can't find marriage but birth of their youngest child James has mmn Rush. Another relative.
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And seeing as Rebecca Rush was a widow in 1818, presumably there's a marriage record for before then?
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marriage at Chadwell - Benjamin Smith bach and Rebecca Rush widow on 21 Dec 1818, so looks like George Rush is Sarah's son.
In 1834 George Rush, 15, was charged with maliciously and feloniously shooting at four people in Chadwell. He was in Thomas Bray's garden at the time!
Thomas Bray confirmed that his wife was George's mother by a previous husband.
George was acquited.
(Chelmsford Chronicle, 18 July 1834)
What happened to Rebecca Bray?
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Goodness! So this George Rush would be the half-brother of Elizabeth Smith/Goddard/Dudley? And what happened to Rebecca Bray indeed. Did she marry 3 times then? First to a Rush. Then to Benjamin Smith. Then to Thomas Bray. Have I followed that correctly?
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Looks like it. When George married on 16 Nov 1840 he said he was 23, so b abt 1817, so looks like age in newspaper a bit out. H says his father was John Rush (dead). and with witnesses William and Elizabeth Goddard it does look like close family.
Perhaps Rebecca lied about being a widow when she married Benjamin and Rush was her maiden name and George was illegitimate.
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Illegitimacy is certainly possible. Or she took on the name Rush despite never having married the John Rush who fathered George. Illegitimacy is fairly common in the Goddard extended family; my great-great-grandfather and most of his siblings were born out of wedlock, and his father had an illegitimate elder brother.
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1851 Chadwell has
Thomas Bray Head 45 or 48 Market Gardener, born Herefordshire
Rebecca Rush Widow 72, born Langley
piece 1773 folio 198 page 10
Seems to say both unmarried!
Something amiss with Thomas's age there, in 1861 (presuming it's the same man) he was 83. Unmarried. And born Enfield Middlesex (like William Goddard)
And like John Rush, 40, also in Chadwell in 1861!
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What a curious little family! The mind boggles.
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1851 Chadwell has
Thomas Bray Head 45 or 48 Market Gardener, born Herefordshire
Rebecca Rush Widow 72, born Langley
piece 1773 folio 198 page 10
Seems to say both unmarried!
Something amiss with Thomas's age there, in 1861 (presuming it's the same man) he was 83. Unmarried. And born Enfield Middlesex (like William Goddard)
And like John Rush, 40, also in Chadwell in 1861!
I think it looks like both digits of Thomas's age have been overwritten so not 40 something originally. Can we find deaths for either of them, Rebecca might go under any of three surnames.
Herefordshire as pob is odd. Could it have been Hertfordshire on householder's original form and enumerator mistranscribed. Rebecca's birthplace of Langley is a long way from Chadwell, practically in Herts and a very small place between Clavering and Barley. I assume Langley in Essex as all other Essex towns villages have county omitted (sloppy job!).
Just found this marriage right time frame but not John Rush but William and Sible Hedingham also a long way away.
29 Oct 1815 at Sible Hedingham William Rush and Rebecca Ardley botp, wit Susanna Ardley and William Everett. Both Williams signed, both Ardley girls made their mark
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There's a Rebecca Rush died 1851, Orsett. Could that be her?
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Rebecca Rush, buried at Chadwell St Mary, 10 August 1851.
Abode Chadwell
Age 75
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9Q97-YSLC-96G?i=1120&cat=489356
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No further info from PR image except the minister was Edward H Kittol curate. So she's the Rebecca Rush in 1851 but is she the one aged 50 - 54 calling herself Rebecca Bray in 1841?
And if she married Benjamin Smith, why isn't she calling herself Rebecca Smith (if she wasn't actually married to Thomas Bray) why revert to former married name?
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Yes, Benjamin Smith seems to have been airbrushed out of the picture altogether. With daughter Elizabeth not even knowing his name!
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If they're the same and age was off in 1841, but correct in 1851, it makes her birth year about 1776. I would expect a first marriage early in 1800s when she was in her twenties. When Elizabeth was born (assuming she was her mother) she would be 43. Sounds possible.
Perhaps she and Benjamin separated acrimoniously then disappeared and she couldn't marry Thomas Bray because she thought Benjamin might still be alive,
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Perhaps she and Benjamin separated acrimoniously then disappeared and she couldn't marry Thomas Bray because she thought Benjamin might still be alive,
I think that could be the likeliest explanation for what's going on here.
But I am still bugged by Enfield!
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marriage at Chadwell - Benjamin Smith bach and Rebecca Rush widow on 21 Dec 1818, so looks like George Rush is Sarah's son.
9 Oct 1831, Joseph Groves bach married Rebbeca Rush sp - They were witnesses at Elizabeth's marriage
Found Joseph Groves and Rebecca in 1851
They are living at Blue Anchor West Tilbury, he was born Chadwell abt 1806, She was born Enfield abt 1807, Children Caroline 8 b Chadwell, George 4 b Chadwell and Margaret 1 b Orsett.
So Enfield crops up again. Langley to Enfield seems feasible either via Hertford on the predecessor of the A10 or via Bis Stortford on the old route which runs west of M11. But no M25 to go on to Chadwell then.
Maybe a military connection, Chadwell isn't far from Tilbury Fort. Maybe Mr Rush was in the army, stationed at Tilbury anthat's how the family came to the area.
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The story so far.......
Rebecca Xxx b abt 1776 Langley
married (John) Rush between 1794 and 1807 somewhere
Had children
Rebecca about 1807 Enfield
George abt 1817 Chadwell
... and maybe others
John Rush died between 1816 and 1818 assuming that George was his and not the result of a relationship long after his death.
married Benjamin Smith (bac) 21 dec 1818
Elizabeth Smith b 1819 bapt 19 dec 1819
Thomas Bray and William Goddard also come from Enfield.
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It is very confusing ??? but yes that summary of the last post I follow. And it appears she never married Mr Bray, probably what we would now call a common-law marriage (I think that's what it's called). And a separation from Benjamin would account for why she reverted to her first married name (if she ever did marry a John Rush).
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hope I'm not posting this twice - got a couple of error messages when I pushed post
marriage at Chadwell - Benjamin Smith bach and Rebecca Rush widow on 21 Dec 1818, so looks like George Rush is Sarah's son.
9 Oct 1831, Joseph Groves bach married Rebbeca Rush sp - They were witnesses at Elizabeth's marriage
One of the witnesses to Rebecca Rush jnrs marriage was Samuel Staines. Looking at Samuel in 1851 shows his wife Mary was born Enfield in 1818. Can't find marriage but birth of their youngest child James has mmn Rush.
In 1841 Mary Staines birth year is 1816 likely to be rounded so looks like she's older than she appears in 1851, so could be another child of Rebecca snr.
Think it may have tried to modify yesterdays post rather than quote it and add the extra about Staines family
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Curiouser and curiouser ??? Enfield, Chadwell and Orsett, Hertfordshire, Rush/Smith/Bray/Staines. This is far too complicated for my liking ;D
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Samuel Staines married Mary Rush at Chadwell on 30 March 1834, wit Joseph Prentice and Mary Wood
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Thanks.
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Herefordshire as pob is odd. Could it have been Hertfordshire on householder's original form and enumerator mistranscribed. Rebecca's birthplace of Langley is a long way from Chadwell, practically in Herts and a very small place between Clavering and Barley. I assume Langley in Essex as all other Essex towns villages have county omitted (sloppy job!).
I agree that Hertfordshire is more likely.
Squinting hard at the image, I think the enumerator has put Sx for those born in Essex. There is a "do" for Rebecca, but that would be from Herefordshire above (which we think ought really to be Hertfordshire)
So it may be just possible that Rebecca was from Hertfordshire?
But, yes, Langley near Clavering is close, and Mr Bray usually says Enfield in Middlesex.
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RE this, much of Chadwell’s records are now on FreeREG, and:
John Rush, buried Chadwell, 4th of September 1817, aged 35
So
John Rush, christened Chadwell, 11th of November 1781, to Richard and Sarah;
George Rush, christened Chadwell, 7th of June 1817.
Doesn’t solve any of the mysteries about Rebecca and Benjamin’s origins sadly, nor what became of Benjamin after 1819 or a christening for Rebecca Rush (Jnr.) allegedly born c. 1807 in Enfield. I did find in Langley a single christening for a Rebecca, Rebecca Corbe, christened on the 11th of June 1780, to George and Hannah.
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I believe this Rebecca was buried in Langley on the 17th of December 1784, though.