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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Kent => England => Kent Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Mehrtsgirl on Thursday 10 May 18 06:57 BST (UK)
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Hi, I am about to admit defeat in finding the deaths of my 2x great grandies Robert Hale Parsons (DOB 1843 Norfolk) and Martha Eliza Parsons (nee Belsey DOB 1846 Hougham near Dover). I last have them in Hougham in the 1881 census. I can't find either in the 1891 census. I've tried by tracking through the younger children to no avail. I would appreciate another set of eyes looking for them in the records and any tips you may have in unravelling the mystery. TIA. :)
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There is a marriage for Emma Parsons in Dover 1890. Maybe their daughter.
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Emma Parsons marriage:
12th August 1890
William Ellis,26,farrier. Father:Edwin Ellis,glass cutter, deceased. Address: 2 Cliff Court
Emma Parsons,20. Father:Robert Parsons, boilermaker. Address: 2 Cliff Court, Limekiln Street?
Witnesses:William Fletcher and Anne Taylor.
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Emma Parsons marriage:
12th August 1890
William Ellis,26,farrier. Father:Edwin Ellis,glass cutter, deceased. Address: 2 Cliff Court
Emma Parsons,20. Father:Robert Parsons, boilermaker. Address: 2 Cliff Court, Limekiln Street?
Witnesses:William Fletcher and Anne Taylor.
Can't seem to find this couple in 1891 or 1901.
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Thanks for this info. Yes they did have a daughter Emma and I also have this marriage. I do question if it is the right marriage as Robert was a blacksmith not a boilermaker but perhaps that's what blacksmiths also did!! Interestingly, I can't find most of the children in 1891 apart from my great grandmother who was married and a contender for their youngest. The search goes on!
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Where was your great grandmother in 1891?
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My great grandmother was in Chatham although most of her siblings stayed around Dover apart from the youngest who I may have found in 1891 in the Medway workhouse. Assuming I have it right, I have no idea how she got there but developed a theory that Robert and Martha had headed towards London (one of their sons had been born in Blackfriars many years before)! This led me to believe that maybe I had found Robert's death in Islington. Purchased the death certificate and it was definitely not him.
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Have you got a tree on Ancestry for Lucretia Caroline Parsons? It mentions Robert and Martha.
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No Lucretia Caroline in this family as far as I am aware. Must look at the tree!
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Lucretiacaroline Parsons - Ancestry.com.au
https://search.ancestry.com.au/.../sse.dll?.
Photo: 1843 - Robert Hale Parsons ( son of John & Mary) Christening - Sidestrand - Norfolk. Category: Other. Taken: 27 Feb 2017. Attached To: Robert Hale ...
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Born after 1881 :)
PARSONS, HENRY JOHN mmn BELSEY
1882 March Quarter in DOVER Volume 02A Page 1019
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Born after 1881 :)
PARSONS, HENRY JOHN mmn BELSEY
1882 March Quarter in DOVER Volume 02A Page 1019
Could this be Henry...
PARSONS, HENRY 4
GRO Reference: 1887 J Quarter in DOVER Volume 02A Page 531
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Lucretiacaroline Parsons - Ancestry.com.au
https://search.ancestry.com.au/.../sse.dll?.
Photo: 1843 - Robert Hale Parsons ( son of John & Mary) Christening - Sidestrand - Norfolk. Category: Other. Taken: 27 Feb 2017. Attached To: Robert Hale ...
This link is not working :-\
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Lucretiacaroline Parsons - Ancestry.com.au
https://search.ancestry.com.au/.../sse.dll?.
Photo: 1843 - Robert Hale Parsons ( son of John & Mary) Christening - Sidestrand - Norfolk. Category: Other. Taken: 27 Feb 2017. Attached To: Robert Hale ...
This link is not working :-\
I had trouble with it earlier, try this...
https://www.ancestry.com.au/search/?name=LucretiaCaroline_Parsons&birth=1840_Tennessee-USA&death=1879&types=p
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Thank you.
That just takes me to a gravestone photo
PHOTO Henry Young Huddleston
ATTACHED TO Lucretia Caroline Parsons (1840-1879)
Probably just Ancestry playing up ;D
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Thank you.
That just takes me to a gravestone photo
PHOTO Henry Young Huddleston
ATTACHED TO Lucretia Caroline Parsons (1840-1879)
Probably just Ancestry playing up ;D
It only had marriage and 1881 census images of Robert and Martha, proberly someone name collecting. I have'nt been able to find them in Tennessee but I do think it's a possibility that they emigrated some where between 1881 and 1891.
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Thanks heaps for the info re Henry Parsons. Martha at least was alive in 1882! I think I will go back to the immigration sources and see if there is any evidence of them. They were certainly young enough to set off on adventures! Thanks everyone for your input :)
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I also think they left the UK. Shame that passenger records don't start until 1890
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I think this maybe youngest Amy Parsons marriage, wrong age given but if you check 1939 Register on Anc* gives date of birth 16th April 1880:
29 Apr 1900 Luton Kent
James Thomas Pennell, age 24. Father:George Pennell
Amy Parsons, year of birth 1877. Father: Robert Parsons
Residence Luton, Kent, England
Moderator comment: Details from 1939 register allowed while free access is available
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I think this maybe youngest Amy Parsons marriage, wrong age given but if you check 1939 Register on Anc* gives date of birth 16th April 1880:
29 Apr 1900 Luton Kent
James Thomas Pennell, age 24. Father:George Pennell
Amy Parsons, year of birth 1877. Father: Robert Parsons
Residence Luton, Kent, England
That's in the Chatham area that keeps popping up.
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Yes I have Amy married to James Pennell too. Yes Chatham has seen a lot of my family :) I wondered if there were two Amy Parsons but the names of Amy's children pop up in my Nan's generation :)
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Found another child...
PARSONS, MARGARET CLARA SOPHIA mmn BELSEY
GRO Reference: 1864 J Quarter in DOVER Volume 02A Page 768
PARSONS, MARGARET CLARA SOPHIA 1
GRO Reference: 1866 M Quarter in DOVER Volume 02A Page 527
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There is a possible for Martha in the 1891 census in Milton, Glasgow. She is down as Martha Parsons, Head, Married, age 45 born England, occ Laundrymaid ( which matches 1881 where she is down as a Laundress). She is living with a George McNicol, described as her husband ( you would have to view the original on Scotlandspeople to check this). Don’t see any obvious marriage or death for her in Scotland.
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Martha Belsey, Parsons or Conn died In Anderston district of Glasgow in 1898 age 49 ( 644/10 786 - certificate available to view on Scotlandspeople).
Isobel
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George McNicol was only 19 1891. ???
George Mcnicol
1891
Male
Age 19
Birthplace Lanarkshire
Registration District Maryhill
County Lanarkshire
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The one in the census was 44. He was a Window Glazier.
Isobel
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George is in St Rollox, Glasgow in 1901 age 53,a widower, born Glasgow, occ Glazier Windows formerly. He is an inmate ( i’m assuming it may be the workhouse). Found this on FindMyPast but can’t see a match on Ancestry.
Isobel
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Sorry isobelw I got the wrong one...
George Mcnicol
1891
Male
Age 44
Birthplace Lanarkshire
Registration District Milton
County Lanarkshire
Birth Year (Estimated) 1847
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If this is Martha in Glasgow in 1891 it begs the question of what happened to Robert and the children.
I can't find an obvious death for Robert, found 2 possible marriage's for the children. Emma 1890, Dover 2A 1591. Ann Caroline 1883, Dover 2A 1191.
Possible for Amy in 1891, Chatham Kent, ST PAUL, Medway. age 10, Scholar.
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Goodness:o Isobelw and Solid Rock thank you. Can I check Isobel if the death you found actually says all those names for Martha (Belsey, Parsons, Conn)? And I've never used Scotlandspeople - I'm assuming it's a pay to view site? I'm trying to come to grips with Martha potentially appearing in Scotland!!!!! Robert's brother William was born in Glasgow before the family moved to Norfolk then Kent. I wonder if the connection was there? At any rate, another avenue to explore thank you;D
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Was William born 1845 and married Tabathadia Beaumont in 1860?
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I had six credits left on Scotlandspeople so I had a look at the certificate for you. She is down as Martha Conn,age 49, widow of 1st - unknown Parsons 2nd - James Conn Quay Labourer. Parents are unknown Belsey ( deceased) and unknown Belsey nee unknown (deceased) She was found dead in bed at 18 Perth Street, Glasgow on 3rd December 1898 having last been seen alive the previous evening. Cause of death was Heart Disease. Can’t find any marriage to James Conn but there is a death for a James Conn in 1898 in the same district ( Anderston) that might be worth checking out. The informant of the death was an acquaintance, Thos Wm Richardson of 50 Breadlebane Street.
Parsons and Belsey are really unusual names in Scotland and that combination with the right first name and an approximately correct age are fairly compelling.
Isobel
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Isobelw thank you so much for your generosity both in research time and credits!! Yes it is compelling. Belsey is an unusual name even in England and seems to be (from my research and that of other family members) concentrated around Kent. We have been led to believe that Belsey was once Belsyre and that the name came over with William the Conqueror. So finding it in Scotland combined with Parsons has blown me away!! The questions keep coming. What happened to Robert? What happened to her younger children? Where did she meet this fellow and all the way from Dover to Glasgow - why? Thanks again and to everyone else who has contributed to this discussion. I am completely gobsmacked (and thrilled!) and can't wait to drill down further. :) :) :)
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Oh and I was going to add that Mary Parsons (Holohan) her daughter also died of heart disease at 60. I wonder if Martha kept in touch? Mary was illiterate as was Martha so the challenges would have been significant.
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Solid Rock re that William - no not mine as far as I am aware :) Thank you.
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Is this the birth you have for Robert, just to make sure we have the right date. I can't find a marriage for Parsons - Farrell in England or Scotland.
PARSONS, ROBERT HAIL mmn FARRELL
GRO Reference: 1843 M Quarter in ERPINGHAM Volume 13 Page 114
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Hi there solidrock, yes this is 'my' Robert 1843 Sidestrand, Norfolk (and as confirmed by his birth and marriage certificates and Martha's birth certificate which I have). Some variation in his middle name i.e. Hail versus Hale. Now as to his mother!! Mary Farrell states variously in census and other documentation that she was born in Gosport (Hampshire), Norfolk and Ireland! I think it was Ireland and I have found a marriage in 1827 in County Cork for a Mary Farrell and a John Parsons (TBC). Date works well for the birth of their first child William in 1829 in Glasgow Scotland. John's place of birth also remains a mystery as he notes Winchester and then Norfolk !! John was a Riding Officer/Coast Guard and a family member believes he was also in the military very early on (although I haven't found solid evidence of this yet). These occupations might help explain movements across Ireland, Scotland, Norfolk and Kent. John and Mary both died around Dover, Kent. Mary's headstone exists today! Robert Hale probably met Martha Eliza there, married and lived most of their life there till 1882 at least (thanx for finding Henry John) apart from a sojourn in London for the birth of one child (William 1872)- can't say how long though. Most of the family can be tracked from birth to death except Martha and Robert...and maybe we have now found Martha!!!!!
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Had alook around for them in census not sure if I found the right one in 1851 at Event Place. Saint Margaret, Norfolk, England where john is a bricklayer. Also 1841 Portsea, Hampshire, England. Looking at all the places the children were born in the 1851 adds up to him being a coast guard but maybe only part time. Have'nt found that marriage in Ireland yet.
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Yes I have the 1851 census and John is a bricklayer. I understand that Riding Officers had to fund themselves and they needed another job as they were frequently not paid for months on end. My cousins and I disputed this one for a bit as John has never shown up in any other documentation as anything except Riding Officer?Coast Guard but the family all add up. As for 1841, I have them in a census in Norfolk. Would be interested to see that one in Portsmouth - only because they both say (at one stage anyway!) they are from that way. Will search it out. This is the info re the marriage as sourced from Ancestry (with secondary sources noted):
Name: John Parsons
Sex: Male
Marriage: 1827
Marriage Place: Diocese of Cork & Ross, County Cork, Ireland
Spouse: Mary Farrell
Source: Albert Eugene Casey, Eleanor L. Downey-Prince, and Ursula Dietrich.. Index of O'Kief, Coshe Mange, Slieve Lougher and Upper Blackwater in Ireland. 16 vols. Birmingham, Alabama: Knocknagree Historical Fund, 1952-1971.
I've gone and had a look again at Martha's death - no doubt in my mind that it is she. The combination of Parsons and Belsey is as isobelw says "compelling". But no sign in ScotlandsPeople of Robert or any of the younger children who I am having difficulty finding in 1891. Gotta love a good mystery :)
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I agree with you that Martha in Glasgow is the right one. The 1841 census has 3 extra children not mentioned before so it may not be the same John and Mary.
Joseph Parsons M 12 Hampshire
Mary Ann Parsons F 10 Hampshire
Georgiana Parsons
Now to find the elusive Robert.
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Emma Parsons marriage:
12th August 1890
William Ellis,26,farrier. Father:Edwin Ellis,glass cutter, deceased. Address: 2 Cliff Court
Emma Parsons,20. Father:Robert Parsons, boilermaker. Address: 2 Cliff Court, Limekiln Street?
Witnesses:William Fletcher and Anne Taylor.
Can't seem to find this couple in 1891 or 1901.
Can’t find them in 1891 but they are in Birmingham in 1901 and 1911. In 1901 Emma says she is from Bermondsey in London and age 28 but the last census says she was born Dover. Births of children on gro confirm maiden name as Parsons.
Think the witness Ann Taylor is Emma’s sister Ann who married Alfred Taylor in Dover in 1883.
Isobel
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William and Emma are in Birmingham in 1891 living as lodgers. Emma says she is 21 born Paddington. Eldest son William Henry ( age 10 in 1901) was born in June quarter 1901 MMA Parsons.
Isobel
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The Taylors are in Birling Kent in 1891 but interestingly one of their children -James age 5 - was born in Scotland.
Isobel
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The Taylors are in Birling Kent in 1891 but interestingly one of their children -James age 5 - was born in Scotland.
Isobel
That is definitely Ann, daughter of Robert and Martha. In 1901 James was a stockman on farm in Brabourne, Kent. His birth is given as Ayr Glasgow 1886. Was Ann visiting her mother or there for Martha's wedding?
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Isobelw and solidrock you are super sleuths!!! The Scotland connections are amazing and even though I have this information, given it was all collected before the big Martha discovery I'm not sure I would have gone back to join the dots (a lesson about revisiting to be learned)!! Thanks for bringing fresh eyes to it all.
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Is this Mary's grave?
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/156715355/mary-parsons
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It is indeed :) Buried with her s-i-l and it was erected by her daughter Caroline if memory serves me correctly. I was so thrilled to see it. Very few of my ancestors have surviving headstones especially from that period.
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Do you know where John is buried? A slim chance that Robert may be with him. Also I'm not sure if this is John, it's from Genuki, British Coastguards 1841 - 1901.
Parson 1871 Bawdsey SFK (Husband absent) Wife: (Mary), 1831, Cork, IRL. Children: William, 1859, Faversham, KEN; John & Thomas, 1861 & 1862, Leysdown, Isle of Sheppey, KEN.
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I have John dying in 1851 in Dover and buried in St Marys graveyard. Without knowing what the dates refer to (? DOB although that doesn't work with 1871 and 1831!) it might be.
I have been trawling Free bmd, Ancestry, FindMyPast, ScotlandsPeople, etc this morning and the only outsider for Robert's death seems to be back in Islington in 1896 (it has him as 56 making his DOB 1840 which is only 3 years out). The family did live in the broad vicinity when William was born so I wondered if this is where he returned to.
My timeline has for Martha: 1891 she is in Glasgow 'married' to George McNicol; 1895 she may be in Lansdowne Crescent as Mrs Martha Parsons (although Google Maps tells me this looks like an area that may not have matched her purse); 1898 she dies in Glasgow as Martha Conn apparently having been 'married' to James Conn now deceased (I found a James Conn who died in the same area in 1898 and can find no Conn/Parsons marriage).
For Robert I have a possible sighting in Waterloo Row in Glasgow in 1895, occupation miner. If this is he, and Martha's death entry also notes she had been a widow Parsons, then a death in 1896 in Islington could work. I have already bought one GRO PDF for a Robert Parsons in Islington (seemed a perfect match) but not him so a bit reluctant to do Islington again...but no stone unturned and all that. Having found Martha though has cheered up my cousins one who has been researching for decades!!!
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There is a record for the family on Ancestry Ca. perhaps you have already seen it.
John Parsons, born Tenterden, Kent, England on 15 Oct 1809. Parents, John Parsons born Tenterden, Kent, England on 24 Jan 1779 and Catherine Catt born Tenterden, Kent, England on 25 Jul 1784.
John 1799, parents James Parsons born Tenterden, Kent, England on 22 May 1754, Ann Hill born Wittersham, Kent, England on 20 Jan 1723. There's more....
https://www.ancestry.ca/genealogy/records/mary-parsons_136187310
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The Martha Parsons in Lansdowne Cres didn’t die till 1913. There is a will for her on Scotlandspeople. Long shot, but Glasgow has excellent poor law records. If she applied for poor relief then her whole life history could be on there! Maybe someone going to the Mitchell Library in Glasgow could check for you.
Have you discovered what became of Ellen Caroline b1868 in Dover and William John b 1872 in Blackfriars, Surrey?
Isobel
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Hi solidrock - yes somewhere back in time I have seen it. One of my cousins subscribes to this being our John but I'm not convinced. I know he moved between being born in Hampshire or Norfolk on documentation but I would have thought Kent might have got a mention in there somewhere if he was born in Tenterden (given the track record of this side of the family though it could of course be him!)
Thanks isobelw. Lansdowne Crescent didn't seem to gel for my Martha from a social/economic perspective especially when I saw the occupations of some of the other tenants. Imagine though - two Mrs Martha Parsons in the same area in the same period!
The poor law records is a great idea. I might post a request on the Glasgow page if there is one as Scotland is a looong way away for me.
As to Ellen. In 1891 I have her living in the workhouse in Buckland Dover and I have her marrying one John George Cheyney (TBC). That's it for her. William has me stumped. I last see him in 1881 and when I gave him some time recently I got nowhere so put him on the back burner.
After William I have an Elizabeth (TBC) in 1879. 7 years is a long time between babies in this family and I know I have had a quick look for Robert in the crims section. In 1891 I have Amy Florence in the Medway workhouse - the only Amy Parsons I could find. She entered there about 8 years old which, if it is the correct Amy, has me wondering about what happened in the family. That she is in Chatham is odd but my great grandmother was living there then with her family so perhaps she was keeping an eye on her sister?
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If you think Islington maybe relevant this one is closer to his birth...
PARSONS, ROBERT 45
GRO Reference: 1889 S Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 177
ADDED. Maybe not him, Robert Parsons living at 9, Hardinge Street, Islington was still there in 1900.
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With regards to Waterloo Row in Glasgow in 1895, occupation miner, surely Martha had been married twice more by then and was listed as a widow.
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1889 Islington death - I bought this certificate and it was definitely not Robert :'(
1895 sighting. We know that Martha's death entry in 1898 says she had been widow Parsons but it doesn't say when. Her 'marriage' to George McNicol was, I'm thinking anyway, defacto as she continues to be Martha Parsons (her married status or his or just choice??) I can't find a marriage to James Conn (doesn't mean there wasn't one) so that may have been defacto as well. She was noted as being a widow to James Conn but a marriage and death could have happened in 3 years or even a year. But agreed, I think Robert in 1895 is probably drawing a long bow!!!
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In reply #36 reference is made to John Parsons having possibly previously served in the army before becoming a Mounted Guard. I can confirm that he had served as a private with the 3rd Dragoon Guards before joining the Mounted Guard in March 1834. This is confirmed on the nomination roll ADM 175/78 pdfs 76 & 77, Nom number 4687; this file can be downloaded for free from the National Archives website. To trace his army history you would need to consult the regimental muster rolls held at the National Archives.
Unfortunately the men serving with the Mounted Guard are not as well documented as the Coastguard men, but I did find two further entries for him in ADM 175/6, pdfs 709 & 760.
Hope this is of interest and help.
Martin
Coastguards of Yesteryear
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Wow thank you so much Martin! I look forward to accessing these documents and learning more about John. Really appreciate your help 😊 This will settle some family debate!!!