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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Warwickshire => Topic started by: Jan Prit on Friday 11 May 18 06:21 BST (UK)
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Sorry to bother this great message board again :-[ but I am still trying to find my ancestor John Wigley born around 1796 place unknown, burial date 18/1/1842 Nelson Street Birmingham Warwickshire aged 46, I have even posted on the Ladywood web page where he lived with family Harriett and children. He was a Commercial Clerk on the 1841 census with family, but on his son's death Certificate in N.S.W. Australia (George Henry Wigley) which I have, it was printed that John was a Veterinary Surgeon by trade, perhaps it may have referred to John Wigley Snr. :-[ I would like to know how and where to search for a Commercial Clerk and other Trade Directories that were available back in the early 1700-1900's. I have searched all over, Ancestry, FindMyPast etc. :-[
Janet :'(
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You could try this site -
http://specialcollections.le.ac.uk/cdm/map/collection/p16445coll4
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Hello BumbleB I have had a quick search but nothing so far. :-[ Thanking you for your help. :-[
Janet :-[
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Hi
Christenings for his children at St Phillips
John Richard 15.3.1825 factor's clerk Lionel St
Robert Nathaniel 91.1.1827 maufact. clerk Mount St
Thomas Hugh 25.9.1829 manufacturer's clerk Mount St
Richard Joseph 27 Dec 1832 book keeper Sheepcote St
Mary Ann 27.5.1836 Great Hampton row builder (probably the other John and Harriet master carpenter)
George Henry 12.8.1839 Nelson St book keeper
Edward Anthony 3.5.1841 same
No sign of him as a Vet
Ciderdrinker
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Janet,
I see at least one tree on Ancestry has him born in Warwickshire. However, on the 1841 census it quite clearly says not born in County.
Peter
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1841 census entry has his occupation as "Clerk"
Oops, you already have that :-[
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Morning ciderdrinker, Pjm99, and BumbleB thanks for you help I have George Henry Wigley baptised on the 12/8/1839 born on 3/3/1836 at Saint Phillips Birmingham, he must have changed his trade because in Australia he was a Surgical Instrumental Maker, and as I mentioned before his father John Wigley was a Vet Surgeon I have this certificate. :-[. Perhaps the best way of finding him is through the children, John Richard Wigley, when he married changed his trade to a Gun Stoker, Robert Nathaniel, and Thomas Hugh. :-[ Thanks again for your help. :)
Janet :-[
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Is this your WIGLEY family?
Do you have the marriage certificate. It would ask for occupation, father's name and occupation. Witnesses might be close family -
FreeBDM SepQ 1858 W Ham 4a / 19
WIGLEY Georg m. CROSS Mireumn
births
WIGLEY, George Henry mms CROSS MarQ 1859 @ Edmonton 03a / 167
WIGLEY, Walter John mms CROSS SepQ 1861 @ Birmingham 06a / 175
WIGLEY, Miriam Adelaide mms CROSS DecQ 1863 @ Edmonton 03a / 162
Can you see this family on census, 1861?
Can you list all the information on the death certificate, 1901.
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Afternoon Wivenhoe, which marriage certificate? John and Harriett Wigley marriage 5/1/1824 I have this one, but I can't find George Henry Wigley born 3/3/1836 Nelson Street Birmingham his marriage to Miriam Cross born 6/12/1833 Stebbing Essex marriage on the 18/7/1858 at Stratford Old Church near London, not familiar with this trying at the moment, most of my records are burials, and a few marriages. :-[ .
Janet :-[
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I'm not sure how you know the date and location of George Henry's marriage in 1858 if you haven't got the certificate. :-\ Perhaps the purchase of this certificate would help in your searches.
ADDED: George Wigley, who married Mireumn Cross at St John, Stratford on 18 July 1858 has the occupation of Gun Maker, as does his father, John Wigley. Witnesses were members of the Cross family.
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John Richard marries in 1849 - father John Wigley is a Clerk
Robert Nathaniel doesn't appear to have married
Richard Joseph marries in 1859 - father John Wigley is a Writing Clerk
Added:
John Wigley death certificate - died 10 January 1842 - occupation Commercial Clerk.
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This one -
FreeBDM SepQ 1858 W Ham 4a / 19
WIGLEY Georg m. CROSS Mireumn
I would not be too influenced by the occupations given. Veterinary Surgeon, as understood in 1901, and describing a man born in the early 19th century, would likely mean a man who was a horse doctor....knew something about ailments in animals.
BDM VIC births
1866 / 16547 WIGLEY Alfred Robert parents George Henry / Miriam (Cross)
1868 / 17648 WIGLEY Ellen Harriet parents George Henry / Miriam (Cross)
1870 / 17147 WIGLEY Edward parents George Henry / Miriam (Cross)
BDM VIC deaths
1868 / 1146 WIGLEY Alfred parents George / Miriam (Cross)
1870 / 9499 WIGLEY Henry parents George / Miriam (Cross)
Certificates for these earlier events in Victoria would ask for father's occupation. Might be interesting to see what is recorded. George has newspaper advertisements in NSW papers but I do not see any in Victoria. Descriptions of his occupation would make it easier to find him in the 1861 census.
Can you list the information on the 1901 death certificate, George Henry WIGLEY.
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Hello Wivenhoe, and BumbleB, Found the marriage of George Henry Wigley and Miriam Cross why I can't understand is in the father column its signed John Wigley he has passed on in 1842, I was informed that its the brother who signed the certificate. :-[ Not much on his death certificate aged 65 parents listed son G.H. Wigley informant. Cemetery details, where born, aged place of marriage London England aged 22 years and Miriam Cross, and their children. :-[ I was searching for John and Harrietts son John Richard Wigley the eldest and couldn't find he and wife Elizabeth after the 1861 Census, no luck their. :'(
Janet :-\
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John Wigley doesn't sign the 1858 marriage certificate for George. George would have been asked his father's name and occupation, which he answered. It is possible that he was not asked whether his father was still alive.
The only people who sign the actual marriage entry, on the day, are the bride and groom (in this case he made his mark), witnesses and the person who conducted the marriage ceremony.
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Evening BumbleB Both of John Wigley's signatures are different on George Wigley's marriage and John Richard's marriage, and not the same profession, on John Richard's certificate father was a Clerk, and on George's marriage certificate it was a Gun Stoker. :-[
Regards, Janet :-[
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I'm not sure where you have seen John Wigley as a signatory on either marriage certificate
He is NOT a witness on either marriage entry, and therefore has NOT signed the register. The main body of the certificates has been written by a church official. Only on the original parish register will you see INDIVIDUAL signatures for the bride, groom and witnesses - look at the attachment to see what I mean. If the certificate has been purchased from GRO or Register Office then all the entries will have been written by an official.
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This is John Wigley's signature - on his own marriage entry in 1824:
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Just a thought:
John Wigley senior dies in 1842 - occupation Commercial Clerk. George would be 6 years old.
1851 census - George Henry (15) is living with brother John Wigley - occupations for both = Gun Stocker. Both parents are dead.
1858 - George marries in Stratford - occupation Gun Maker. Father given as John with occupation as Gun Maker.
Possible 1861 census - George is now a sword mounter, wife shown as Mary Ann :-\, with child George (GRO gives a mmn of Cross)
Theory: has George used his brother's occupation as his father's occupation? Perhaps he doesn't even know what John senior's occupation was :-\ I have absolutely no theory on why George Henry states that his father was a Veterinary Surgeon, there is nothing to support that theory from English records. :-\
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Morning BumbleB thanks for your message, searching for ancestors is very tiring with one good eye. :'( I have been trying for so long to complete this family and others that I am connected to. :-\ I don't know where to go from here, finish searching through John and Harriett's children, or again search around the area where they lived, seeing John was born out of county. I have found so many of the Wigley ancestors have moved to Ladywood Birmingham, could they be cousins, or close family. Where would John Wigley learn his Trade of Commercial Clerk back then. :'( I found sometimes the Trade is carried down the family line, also the same names. :-[
Thanking you,
Janet :'(
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Can you list all the information on the death certificate, 1901.
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Afternoon Wivenhoe, How will that help, I maybe better posting it to you if I can.?? :-[
Regards,
Janet :'(
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It will help because you are using a forum to advance your research, but giving less information than you have yourself.
If you are putting weight on the fact that George Henry's father is described as a veterinary surgeon, then you need to identify who is saying this.....who is the informant.
How knowledgeable is the informant about George Henry's life?. Does the informant give details correctly......John's origins, marriage details, childrens names and ages etc. What occupation is given for John?
Who is saying that George Henry's father was a veterinary surgeon?
(my correction here...to be George Henry)
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The NSW death certificate, issued 1901, for George Henry Wigley, states his father is John Wigley, Veterinary Surgeon. The informant is George Henry Wigley, Junior - image on a tree on Ancestry.
BUT, other than George Henry's marriage certificate (1858 in Stratford, London - occupations for both GH and his father given as Gun Maker) there is no other instance where John's occupation is anything other than Clerk/Commercial Clerk.
To answer Janet's question.
CLERK
a person who works in an office, dealing with records or performing general office duties:
a filing clerk
a junior office clerk
Before the days of computers, or even typewriters, these tasks would be carried out by hand.
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George Henry WIGLEY, son, is informant. If wife Miriam was the informant I would read that detail (occupation of father) with greater credibility. You might expect her to have better knowledge of her husband's origins than you would expect of son George.
Family oral history usually contains accurate details, which are combined incorrectly. I suspect that the history of this family includes someone who was skilled at treating animal ailments, but would not be a vet. George is probably drawing from that story.
I would keep that in mind when researching the CROSS family. Maybe they had someone with veterinary skills.
Similarly, it would be useful to see how George's occupation is described on the birth certificate of a child....earlier birth in Victoria. I suspect that it would not be instrument maker. People had many job skills in those days.
From the death certificate.......who are the four deceased males?
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Morning Wivenhoe, BumbleB having computer problems at the moment, George H. Wigley wasn't born in Victoria, both of them came from England, Birmingham, Miriam Cross father was Stephen Cross from Essex and he was a builder. I have no idea who the 4 deceased males are. Its hard reading the Death Certificate. On George H. Wigley death certificate 24/6/1950 Jnr. parents George H. Wigley and Miriam, he married a Phillis L. Hodge in 1882 Sydney, details Surgical Instrument Maker, their daughter Ruby 63 when he died, she is my grandmother, on his Death Certificate in 1950 it shows marriage, Sydney, age 24, to Phillis L. Hodge and below Widower. This family is getting more and more confusing. :-[
Janet :-[
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I'm not sure that the family is very confusing :-\ The only confusion has been caused by the entry on George Henry's death certificate (1901) that John Wigley was a Veterinary Surgeon. The informant was GH's son, George Henry, who would have only hearsay knowledge of his grandfather.
GH himself was also a little confused when he married Miriam, in that he said that his father (John) was a Gun Maker. :)
According to the tree on Ancestry (which appears to be very fully researched), these are the children of George Henry and Miriam:
George Henry - 1859-1901
Walter John - 1861-1942
Miriam Adelaide - 1863-1937
Alfred Robert - 1866-1867
Ellen Harriet - 1868-1909
Henry Edward - 1870-1870
Edward Anthony - 1872-1873
Herbert Richard - 1874-1875
However, you DO need to do your own research to verify the information.
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I know that George Henry WIGLEY was not born in Victoria. I gave you this information -
FreeBDM SepQ 1858 W Ham 4a / 19
WIGLEY Georg m. CROSS Mireumn
Can you be specific about your confusion ...what are you confused about?
If it is about occupations, you need to consider context.
......Information given by the person....self reporting.
....information given about the person, during their lifetime, by another person.
....information given about the person after their death.
George Henry WIGLEY jnr, as informant for the death certificate of his father, George Henry WIGLEY snr, and describing the paternal grandfather that he would have no memory of, is likely using information gained about family generally - someone among his WIGLEY / CROSS ancestors was a competent healer of ailments in animals. Consider it to be useful information in researching your WIGLEY / CROSS ancestors.
I do not think there is much point to pursue the matter of John WIGLEY being a veterinary surgeon.
You might like to identify other children of John WIGLEY and Harriett PORTER, siblings of your George Henry WIGLEY, to see how they describe occupation of father John WIGLEY on their marriage records.
Birth certificates of children born to George WIGLEY and Miriam CROSS in Victoria would ask for father's occupation. For all that George, in NSW, is an instrument maker, I think his occupation in Victoria would be something else. The 1866 birth is closest to the 1861 Census in England, and information might be useful to locate the WIGLEY family in this census.
BDM VIC births
1866 / 16547 WIGLEY Alfred Robert parents George Henry / Miriam (Cross) @ CARLTON
1868 / 17648 WIGLEY Ellen Harriet parents George Henry / Miriam (Cross) @ MELB
1870 / 17147 WIGLEY Henry Edward parents George Henry / Miriam (Cross) @ MELBOURNE
From the death certificate, George Henry WIGLEY, and attached to family tree on Ancestry -
Informant: George WIGLEY, son, 42 Albert St Stanmore
George Henry WIGLEY, surgical instrument maker, 65yrs, died 2 Oxford Sq 18 Dec 1901
Father: John WIGLEY, veterinary surgeon
Mother: Harriett PORTER
Married: London England at age 22yrs to Miriam CROSS
Born: Birmingham England, 29 years in NSW, 6 years in VIC
Issue: George H 42y, Walter J 40y, Miriam A (JACK) 38y, Ellen (LEECE) 34Y living
4 males deceased
Buried: 20 Dec Independent Cemetery Rookwood.
This would be the four sons, deceased at 1901 -
BDM VIC death
1867 / 1146 WIGLEY Alfred parents George / Miriam (Cross) age 4 @ CARL
1870 / 9499 WIGLEY Henry parents George / Miriam (Cross) age 5 @ CARL
BDM NSW death
1875 / 849 WIGLEY Herbert parents George / Miriam @ Sydney
1873 / 633 WIGLEY Edward A parents George / Marion @ Sydney
At Rookwood Independent Cemetery
George H WIGLEY 87 Year 2/06/1971 Zone A /Independent General F 80
George Henry WIGLEY 91 Year 27/06/1950 Zone A /Independent General F 80
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There are 3 marriages in England for sons of John Wigley:
John Richard (Gun Stocker) marries Elizabeth Westwood - 1849 - father = Clerk
Richard Joseph (Carter) marries Sarah Perry - 1859 - father = Writing Clerk
George Henry (Gun Maker) marries Miriam Cross - 1857 - father = Gun Maker !!!!
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Afternoon at last I have my computer back thanks for your help which is more than other ancestors that are connected to this family I am the only one and searching for other names as well. Its getting too expensive for me jumping from one ancestor to another and some are wrong saying that John Wigley (Clerk) parents are a John Wigley and a Elizabeth Crane, this is on Ancestry and they give no proof of Records. :'(
Janet :-[
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I can't see any marriage for John and Elizabeth Crane. And I can't see a baptism for John around 1796.
You might like to bear this in mind, if you ever find John (1796)
St Philip, Birmingham - 31 May 1751 - John Wigley and Martha Ward.
John son of John and Martha - 4 June 1754
Ann daughter of John and Martha - 3 July 1756
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Afternoon BumbleB thanks again for replying to my message and also helping me with my ancestor searching. I remember my late Auntie Bon (my fathers sister) telling me about George H. Wigley when he made the Surgeon Instruments he would go into a shed out back and shut the door no one would dare to interrupt him. :-[ I have a close friend that lives here and she is connected to George H. Wigley his sister Miriam Adelaide we used to volunteer Meals on Wheels together, now she doesn't search anymore. :-[
Janet :'(
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1824 - John Wigley marries - assume he is full age so at least 21.
1841 census - John Wigley is aged 45 (rounded up to nearest 5 years) AND not born in County = not born in Warwickshire
1842 - John dies January, aged 46.
Other possible baptisms:
16 May 1796 - John and Ann - Bridgnorth, Shropshire
15 November 1795 - Thomas and Elizabeth - Duffield, Derbyshire
29 January 1795 - John and Mary - Winster, Derbyshire
11 September 1796 - Jonathan and Ann - Wirksworth, Derbyshire
21 September 1794 - John and Elizabeth - Bonsall, Derbyshire
Or he could have been baptised in a Non-Conformist ceremony.
AND, I can't see that any of them "leap out" as the right one. :-\
Harriet Porter - daughter of Nathaniel and Ann - baptised 31 August 1803 - St Philip, Birmingham
Which ties in with one of John and Harriet's sons having the name Nathaniel :) You've probably already found this :-\
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Good Evening BumbleB, I love your board name, I am searching in Belper Derbyshire at the moment, John Wigley bap. 1796 father John and a Elizabeth, I will have a break time to dinner. :-[
Janet :-[ :-\